top five players

[phil80]

1. Messi
2. Buffon
3. Ronaldo
4. Kaka
5. Casillas

6. Zlatan
7. Iniesta
8. Torres
9. Ribery
10. Mascherano/Villa

[Hendrixforpope]

1. Messi
2. Buffon
3. Ronaldo
4. Kaka
5. Casillas

6. Zlatan
7. Iniesta
8. Torres
9. Ribery
10. Mascherano/Villa

Calling Teso, calling Teso :D:p

[Teso Dos Bichos]

He is in denial.

[phil80]

No, just prefer not to be a fanboy. Having a better season does not make someone a better overall player.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Only a fanboy would deny him his rightful place at the top of the list. He has outperformed Messi and is a far more complete player.

[Perú FC]

He has outperformed Messi and is a far more complete player.
The first part is true about the last season but the second... it's discovering too much the fanaticism that all of us should hide better :D.

[phil80]

Only a fanboy would deny him his rightful place at the top of the list. He has outperformed Messi and is a far more complete player.
No, only a fanboy like yourself would include him in an all time best XI list (which is ridiculous). And since you didnt get it the first time, someone that had the better season does not make them better overall nor the more complete player

[Moishe]

Teso did you really put CRonaldo in all time best eleven? While I felt for a while Ronaldo was the overall better player than Messi I'd say that gap has been erased. Messi still has considerable growth potential I'm not sure how much better Ronaldo is going to be than he already is talent-wise. I'm probably the most critical Argentine of Messi and it just scares me how much better he can be. I respect your admiration of Ronaldo but I've got to give a slight nod to Messi.

[phil80]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=711747&page=3

quote Teso:
EDIT: As for my team:

---------------- Müller
----------- Pelé
- Best ------------------ Ronaldo -
----- Di Stefano - Beckenbauer
Maldini - Passarella - Baresi - Gentile
------------- Schmeichel

Subs: Maier, Amoros, Keane, Maradona, Eusebio

[Perú FC]

That's really too much.

[Hendrixforpope]

Teso is a C. Ronaldo fanboy, plain and simple.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

The first part is true about the last season but the second... it's discovering too much the fanaticism that all of us should hide better :D.

Ronaldo can and does do more. Stating so is not fanaticism. It's fact. See the response to Moishe below.

No, only a fanboy like yourself would include him in an all time best XI list (which is ridiculous). And since you didnt get it the first time, someone that had the better season does not make them better overall nor the more complete player

This coming from a guy who trolled his way through the thread in question while refusing to put his own team up for scrutiny? You are a particularly annoying poster when you are in these moods. Sometimes your posts are good and the rest of the time you simply troll from thread to thread contributing nothing. Try sticking to the former. I have dealt with all of this previously. Try reading and if you still cannot comprehend my reasoning then simply ask for further clarification. In the meantime stop ruining this thread. In short either contribute or log-out.

Teso did you really put CRonaldo in all time best eleven? While I felt for a while Ronaldo was the overall better player than Messi I'd say that gap has been erased. Messi still has considerable growth potential I'm not sure how much better Ronaldo is going to be than he already is talent-wise. I'm probably the most critical Argentine of Messi and it just scares me how much better he can be. I respect your admiration of Ronaldo but I've got to give a slight nod to Messi.

I did. Ronaldo is ahead of Messi in terms of his overall game and why others refuse to acknowledge that is beyond me, particularly as it is not a slight on Messi. Ronaldo can and does do more. It's there for all to see. His conventional dribbling might not be as good but he trumps Messi in everything else. I do find it strange that you claim Messi has more to give but Ronaldo does not. It is conjecture in both cases. You could argue that your statement highlights Messi has a lot to learn/develop while Ronaldo does not but I would not want to misrepresent the meaning of your post [;)]. In Messi's case everything depends on his body. You know that I am not a Messi basher by any means but what I am is realistic. Messi is a superb conventional dribbler who can finish but outside of that his game is limited in comparison. He simply has less strings to his bow. It does not mean he cannot end up being a superb player or improve (as he has done) but it is something we need to keep in mind when discussing him.

EDIT: Even if Messi does not improve he is still a very good player. Lampard has already proven that you can have a limited game and only be very good in a few areas but still be a key player.

That's really too much.

This coming from someone who included Zidane in their Dream Team (in the same thread)? In any case I have fully explained myself.

Teso is a C. Ronaldo fanboy, plain and simple.

See above. Do not fall into the phil80 trap.

[Dr. Know]

Messi is a superb conventional dribbler who can finish but outside of that his game is limited in comparison.

Umm his passing? Messi's passing has improved drastically in the last year or so. At times he's play almost as a second playmaker for Argentina and for Barca he's been playing almost completely through the middle this season. He already has 4 goals an 3 assists in 5 matches and he could have more if some of the other players finished the chances he creates.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Are you saying that Ronaldo does not create? The evidence suggests otherwise. Take our last match, and his first league match, as the latest example. Even last season he was superb in that regard. Not to the same level as the year before (in terms of assists) but our stuttering attack can be blamed for that.

[phil80]

he trumps Messi in everything else. ...You know that I am not a Messi basher by any means but what I am is realistic.

EDIT: Even if Messi does not improve he is still a very good player. Lampard has already proven that you can have a limited game and only be very good in a few areas but still be a key player.



This coming from someone who included Zidane in their Dream Team (in the same thread)? In any case I have fully explained myself.

Ronaldo does not trump Messi in dribbling, vision, first touch, passing, football IQ, the only things he has over him is strength, shooting, and headers. The fact that you dismiss that other players are on Ronaldo's level (because in reality the margin between the two players is slim) and include Ronaldo in an alltime list is what gets people to label you as a fanboy and rightfully so. And Zidane is a lot more deserving of being in a Dream Team than Ronaldo and most experts/fans/analysts/sane posters would agree. (but thats a different issue)

Lastly, your comparison of messi to lampard falls flat. Messi does not do just a few things well. He is a lot more versatile as he is showing with his improving vision on the ball with Barcelona (go back and watch his link up play with iniesta in particular) and his shooting. So not to sound like a fanboy, Messi still needs to improve in his team play and know when it's best to lay it off, but he definitely deserves to be among the top 5 players which you have denied.

[Dr. Know]

Are you saying that Ronaldo does not create? The evidence suggests otherwise.

Where did I say that? I though you made it seem like Messi's only good qualities were his dribbling and ability to score. I'm saying that his passing has developed drastically and can be compared to Ronaldo's. His creativity is up there as well.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Ronaldo does not trump Messi in dribbling, vision, first touch, passing, football IQ, the only things he has over him is strength, shooting, and headers. The fact that you dismiss that other players are on Ronaldo's level (because in reality the margin between the two players is slim) and include Ronaldo in an alltime list is what gets people to label you as a fanboy and rightfully so. And Zidane is a lot more deserving of being in a Dream Team than Ronaldo and most experts/fans/analysts/sane posters would agree. (but thats a different issue)

Lastly, your comparison of messi to lampard falls flat. Messi does not do just a few things well. He is a lot more versatile as he is showing with his improving vision on the ball with Barcelona (go back and watch his link up play with iniesta in particular) and his shooting. So not to sound like a fanboy, Messi still needs to improve in his team play and know when it's best to lay it off, but he definitely deserves to be among the top 5 players which you have denied.

I posted way back in Feb:

"Ronaldo also tracks back a hell of a lot and has more defensive responsibility than Messi does. I don't deny that Ronaldo gives the ball away more but that is because he plays a far more expansive game. I dispute the vision remark mainly because Ronaldo has already proven that he can assist in numerous ways and contribute to the overall attack in many more while Messi's passing and assists have been underwhelming until recently. The only thing Messi has over Ronaldo is better conventional dribbling. That is it. Oh, and being injury prone. The form Ronaldo has displayed at every level over the last couple of seasons is why he is the undisputed number one. Messi's injury problems are why he is not in the top three and whether he merits a place in the top 5 is up for debate."

I have dealt with the rest of your opening paragraph countless time already. The comparison to Lampard is a perfect one. Lampard's main strengths are getting into scoring positions and shooting. That is what he does to a very high level and without it he would be a mid-table player. Messi's main strengths are conventional dribbling and shooting. Take those away from him and what does he have to fall back on? Like Lampard he can do other things but not to the required level of a top side. He might change that in future and has already made strides in his passing but it is a guessing game at this stage. I think people have been far too quick to jump on the Messi bandwagon because of the age when he broke through, the Maradona comparisons and because his main asset, conventional dribbling, was already at a ridiculously high level from day one. In contrast it took a while for his shooting to catch up and even longer for his passing. He is a great talent but top 5 in the world? Above players like Ronaldo, Totti and Kaka? Above the established best in their position like Mascherano or Essien? Above Agüero? I could continue but I will assume that you get the point.

As an aside I do like all of the accusations being thrown my way in relation to being a fanboy. It's particularly strange when you consider that I have long championed the underrated players in the world like Riquelme, Totti and Ferdinand (etc) while also confronting those guily of overrating the likes of Ronaldinho and Zidane. The one time a player I champion starts to get his dues and fan/media attention then suddenly I am the fanboy? Give me a break.

Where did I say that? I though you made it seem like Messi's only good qualities were his dribbling and ability to score. I'm saying that his passing has developed drastically and can be compared to Ronaldo's. His creativity is up there as well.

Those are his fundamental attributes. They are what he does best. The former, in terms of conventional dribbling, is also the one area in which he trumps Ronaldo.

[phil80]

"Ronaldo also tracks back a hell of a lot and has more defensive responsibility than Messi does. I don't deny that Ronaldo gives the ball away more but that is because he plays a far more expansive game. I dispute the vision remark mainly because Ronaldo has already proven that he can assist in numerous ways and contribute to the overall attack in many more while Messi's passing and assists have been underwhelming until recently.
Messi's main strengths are conventional dribbling and shooting. Take those away from him and what does he have to fall back on? .
I think you are confusing the term vision. It does not mean dribbling a few players and then laying it off for an assist (which Ronaldo is good at doing but it does not highlight his vision). When a player can visualize and asses when and where his teammate will be or run onto and place the ball within that vicinity is what constitutes his vision. And Messi is without a doubt better at that than Ronaldo as shown for club and country.

I dont know where you got the idea Ronaldo tracks back more. Not only does messi chase down midfielders constantly (even when he plays further up the pitch) but he also fights back for the ball more when he loses it (which he loses it less frequently)

Lastly, if you take those two things away from messi, he still has passing, his football IQ, speed, and vision to fall back on, and conventional dribbling is a far more expansive trait than lampard's freekicks or lob passes.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Man Utd won the Premiership and Champions League without a striker. It would not have happened if the likes of Ronaldo did not have vision. I know exactly what it means. His role is the side, in addition to his game, is far more expansive than that of Messi.

My tracking back comment is in direct relation to their positioning and the rest of their team. Messi plays further forward in a defined role and with a more conservative team. Ronaldo does not which requires him, and others, to do a lot more in terms of tracking back and defending across the pitch.

I'm not sure that I would label conventional dribbling above what Lampard does. It is a single facet of the game and trying to rank them accordingly would be one hell of a discussion. Certainly not one for 0350. My fundamental point in regard to Lampard/Messi is that they can do a few things to a very high standard but in comparison to their peers their game is less expansive and they are less 'complete'. People need to keep that in mind when comparing players. Notably Messi and Ronaldo because the latter clearly can and has done more. Not a slight on the former but simply the facts.

[Dr. Know]

Messi plays further forward in a defined role and with a more conservative team. Ronaldo does not which requires him, and others, to do a lot more in terms of tracking back and defending across the pitch.

I don't buy this Teso. That claim that "Ronaldo scored the 40 goals from the wing" is a myth and you know it. Ronaldo played in an extremely advanced role for most of the season. He had freedom to roam all around the front. The likes of Tevez regularly dropped further into midfield than Ronaldo did. Ronaldo played essentially as a forward and I bet he spent just as much time if not more in or right around the box than both of ManU's forwards. I'm pretty sure he took more shots on goal than both of them as well.

Notably Messi and Ronaldo because the latter clearly can and has done more. Not a slight on the former but simply the facts.

There are certain things Ronaldo can do that Messi can't mostly because of Messi's size. It's something you can hardly hold against him. Besides those things there aren't a lot of things where Ronaldo is much better than Messi at.