top five players

[Perú FC]

About Argentinians:

To their national team:

1. Javier Mascherano
2. Juan Román Riquelme
3. Javier Zanetti
4. Martín Demichelis
5. Lionel Messi

To their clubs:

1. Lionel Messi (Barcelona)
2. Carlos Tévez (Manchester United)
3. Javier Mascherano (Liverpool)
4. Javier Zanetti (Inter Milan)
5. Sergio Agüero (Atlético Madrid)

[phil80]

About Argentinians:

To their national team:

1. Javier Mascherano
2. Juan Román Riquelme
3. Javier Zanetti
4. Martín Demichelis
5. Lionel Messi

how is messi so far down on the national team and how has riquelme been better than him? in the last string of games messi has been their best player along with mascherano

[bosterosoy]

how is messi so far down on the national team and how has riquelme been better than him? in the last string of games messi has been their best player along with mascherano

in the two qualifying games they both weren't that good, messi played a little better, but Riquelme played much better in the Copa America 2007

[Dr. Know]

how is messi so far down on the national team and how has riquelme been better than him? in the last string of games messi has been their best player along with mascherano

Messi performing well against weak teams in meaningless friendlies means nothing.

Over the past 2 years or so Argentina's best players have been Mascherano and Riquelme.

[Perú FC]

how is messi so far down on the national team and how has riquelme been better than him? in the last string of games messi has been their best player along with mascherano
I believe that's because you're thinking in a shorter time to compare, about only the last 2 or 3 matches maybe, and I think that's really insufficient time to rate them, talking only about matches with their national team.

I'm thinking about the last year, taking as starting point the Copa America, to have more matches to compare performances. Actually, only the last performances of Messi with Argentina encourage me to put him in a Top 5, before that, I think he shouldn't be there.

[bosterosoy]

he is also, along with Diego Forlan and Sebastian Abreu, the leading goal scorers of the 2010 WC Qualifying with 4 goals

[phil80]

I'm thinking about the last year, taking as starting point the Copa America, to have more matches to compare performances. Actually, only the last performances of Messi with Argentina encourage me to put him in a Top 5, before that, I think he shouldn't be there.
Over the past year or two, i can see how you would put others before messi, but the last five or so games he has been their best player (along with masch) and you have to remember that he has had to adjust in a new role this year which he has progressed tremendously at

[ForeverRed]

You guys keep mentioning how important Demichelis is for his NT over the past year or so but its pretty much been true for his club as well.

He has been Bayern's best defender and one of their three best players last season.

[bosterosoy]

Over the past year or two, i can see how you would put others before messi, but the last five or so games he has been their best player (along with masch) and you have to remember that he has had to adjust in a new role this year which he has progressed tremendously at

what new role??

[phil80]

what new role??
playing as an attacking mid just behind the strikers. (filling in for the games riquelme missed). he started off slowly in that position but has greatly improved with his vision and distribution (ie against mexico)

[bosterosoy]

playing as an attacking mid just behind the strikers. (filling in for the games riquelme missed). he started off slowly in that position but has greatly improved with his vision and distribution (ie against mexico)

he only played that role 2 times (in friendlies too) because Riquelme was at Boca and they were still playing the Libertadores. He still plays same position, on the wings as a deep lying forward, not as attacking midfielder

[phil80]

he only played that role 2 times (in friendlies too)
at the top of my head i remember him playing there against norway, algeria, australia, switzerland, mexico, usa...agasint australia he started off playing up top but dropped back in that central role to receive the ball deeper

[Moishe]

playing as an attacking mid just behind the strikers. (filling in for the games riquelme missed). he started off slowly in that position but has greatly improved with his vision and distribution (ie against mexico)

When are you gonna stop with the Mexico match as a basis for any argument? I've said it before and I'll say again, that Mexico side was so bad it couldn't have beaten an MLS side. Why in heavens name would you pick that particular match to hang your hat on is bewildering.

As far as going back a few more matches to support your point, you failed to go back to the first two qualifiers in which he looked dominant but instead you reel off a rash of friendlies in which we looked decent at best. Messi played fine but nothing earth shattering.

[phil80]

When are you gonna stop with the Mexico match as a basis for any argument? I've said it before and I'll say again, that Mexico side was so bad it couldn't have beaten an MLS side. Why in heavens name would you pick that particular match to hang your hat on is bewildering.

As far as going back a few more matches to support your point, you failed to go back to the first two qualifiers in which he looked dominant but instead you reel off a rash of friendlies in which we looked decent at best. Messi played fine but nothing earth shattering.
It's funny when the riquelme fanboys come out. So Mexico is not good enough to be used as an example but Chile is?? And if you comprehended correctly, i used the mexico match because it shows how much messi has improved in that central position from last year until this year. i cant use the ecuador or brazil match as examples because messi didnt play there, riquelme did, and the whole team looked awful. Yes, messi was not earth shattering either but was easily the best attacking player and definitely performed better than riquelme

[Moishe]

It's funny when the riquelme fanboys come out. So Mexico is not good enough to be used as an example but Chile is?? And if you comprehended correctly, i used the mexico match because it shows how much messi has improved in that central position from last year until this year. i cant use the ecuador or brazil match as examples because messi didnt play there, riquelme did, and the whole team looked awful. Yes, messi was not earth shattering either but was easily the best attacking player and definitely performed better than riquelme

You're now deflecting. I never brought Riquelme up but if I did I would acknowledge how average he's looked with both the national team and Boca. Let's keep on comprehending Phil, I said this particular Mexico side. I said it here and I said it in the Argentina forums. Since you brought it up, that particular Chile team was leaps and bounds better than the Mexico side Argentina most recently whipped.

Go to the Mexico forums or ask one the frequents here his or her opinion of that particular Mexico side and I'm sure you'll get an earful of how pathetic and uninspired they were. I didn't know you liked low hanging fruit.

Messi is not a central attacking mid, he's to fragile and he does not at this point read the game quite good enough in my opinion. If you base your whole argument against the likes of Algeria, Norway, USA.....well I just don't know what to say. Big deal that he had a better match than Riquelme in the two recent qualifiers. Honestly it's not saying much is it?

[phil80]

Go to the Mexico forums or ask one the frequents here his or her opinion of that particular Mexico side and I'm sure you'll get an earful of how pathetic and uninspired they were. I didn't know you liked low hanging fruit.

Messi is not a central attacking mid, he's to fragile and he does not at this point read the game quite good enough in my opinion. If you base your whole argument against the likes of Algeria, Norway, USA.....well I just don't know what to say. Big deal that he had a better match than Riquelme in the two recent qualifiers. Honestly it's not saying much is it?
i have never refuted that mexico looked awful that game, but to automatically disregard mexico but then use chile as a reference makes no sense.
i agree, messi is not a CAM but he has transformed himself when he plays that role in recent matches. he still needs to do it against a quality opponent to prove he can play there but he has not been given the chance (you can only play who's put in front of you). riquelme has been given the chance (against stronger competition), twice in the past year against a weaker brazil and has not delivered. So going back to the main point i made, messi had to adjust to a new role and considering this along with his age he has done well to adapt and still be influential to the team.

[bosterosoy]

i have never refuted that mexico looked awful that game, but to automatically disregard mexico but then use chile as a reference makes no sense.
i agree, messi is not a CAM but he has transformed himself when he plays that role in recent matches. he still needs to do it against a quality opponent to prove he can play there but he has not been given the chance (you can only play who's put in front of you). riquelme has been given the chance (against stronger competition), twice in the past year against a weaker brazil and has not delivered. So going back to the main point i made, messi had to adjust to a new role and considering this along with his age he has done well to adapt and still be influential to the team.

Aside from Masche, Riquelme was the only other player that showed up in that game. Everybody else played awful. Riquelme was always tightly marked, most of the time double covered and yet managed to hit the post, have a shot somehow kept out of Doni (still dont kno how he saved that shot) and was the only player creating anything up front despite him being the focal point of Brasil's defensive strategy.

I'm not saying that he hasn't played badly, but he gets way to much of the blame for when they lose and not enough praise for when they win because of him. Meanwhile, if Messi doesn't show up for a game, he gets a pass by the media/fans. Lately Riquelme has been disappointing (mainly because of injury and the flu that made him drop 3 kilos right before the Libertadores and Qualifying matches) and I'll agree he shouldn't have played the first game against Ecuador as he was clearly not 100%. But you have to give credit where it's due, and Mascherano, Demichelis and Riquelme have played better for Argentina in the past year. And Tevez isn't too far behind (especially considering the position he is forced to play)

[phil80]

i am guessing that you concede messi played more than just two games in that position.

As for riquelme, i dont know what game you were watching saying he was the only one creating anything. He was nonexistent besides a few random shots on goal and his gameplay was not there as well, so i dont know how you can claim that he was the only one to 'show up'. And we wont even go into his last performance against brazil

[Moishe]

i have never refuted that mexico looked awful that game, but to automatically disregard mexico but then use chile as a reference makes no sense.
i agree, messi is not a CAM but he has transformed himself when he plays that role in recent matches. he still needs to do it against a quality opponent to prove he can play there but he has not been given the chance (you can only play who's put in front of you). riquelme has been given the chance (against stronger competition), twice in the past year against a weaker brazil and has not delivered. So going back to the main point i made, messi had to adjust to a new role and considering this along with his age he has done well to adapt and still be influential to the team.

I'm not disregarding Mexico at all, I am however disregarding that particular performance as a fluke. The way Mexico came out for that match would have seen them beaten badly by most teams in the world. Overall though I rate Mexico much higher than many around here. Bottom line is that we could've had more competition in a practice match against our own bench. Chile as a reference carries a whole lot more credibility than some friendly.

How has Messi transformed himself? Since you state yourself that Messi needs to do it against quality opponents why are you overstating his accomplishments. Messi will never be a CAM no matter how many times he choses to cut/go inside, he's frame is about as big as it's going to get and he'll have his best matches from the wing. He's behind Riquelme in that role because in that particular role Riquelme is better. Not very hard to understand is it? Oh and before you spout fanboy again, I consider Messi to be the better off the two overall but not by leaps and bounds.

[bosterosoy]

i am guessing that you concede messi played more than just two games in that position.

As for riquelme, i dont know what game you were watching saying he was the only one creating anything. He was nonexistent besides a few random shots on goal and his gameplay was not there as well, so i dont know how you can claim that he was the only one to 'show up'. And we wont even go into his last performance against brazil

I am talking about that Argentina/Brasil Copa America final you referred to