top five players

[KumarsS]

He's not in the top five, but Michael Ballack is working his way back up the list...in a few months, he's made himself the best midfielder on a stacked team and along with Joe Cole the strongest player on a team still pushing convincingly for both the EPL and the CL.

[DerMongerer]

Only by two goals and because Barca fell apart after the equalizer :o. He's not top 5 on the bloody planet though.

No, not just because of the Barca match. He's been in fine form for Atletico for much of the year, if we subtract his brief suspension. Check him in the Uefa Cup. Maybe too early to say top5, but he's been phenomenal and at least deserves some merit.

He reminds me of (and I never thought I'd ever find someone that played like him) Romario, except not as lazy. :D

[phil80]

First of all the underlined is a start. You're taking a stance on something with only the perspective of one side. You don't know South American futbol particularly that of Argentina and Brazil. Track records have proven time and time again that Arg/Brz top sides can play head to head and win against Europes top sides. This isn't opinion, it's fact based on head to head records in international tournaments. Your basis of the best play against the best is childish and silly. A great player is great regardless of where they play. Talent is talent, you've got it or you don't.

Furthermore you go on to talk about Riquelme missing matches for the national team as if he wasn't missed. You expanded on the point about how Messi filled into his role of attacking mid. Guess what? Argentina without Riquelme looked very plain and uninspired and Messi did not come close to being able to fill that role in the center. I challenge you to find one Argentine or true fan of the Albiceleste that will tell you that Messi was brilliant or at the least good in the role of Enganche.

Now let's touch on the San Martin and Gimnasia matches. How was he not special? Was it because he didn't score? In truth you clearly did not watch those matches but guess what, Riquelme was the man that made the offense click and furthermore he made the killer passes throughout both those matches. Do you fault the Enganche if the attackers don't finish? Seriously Phil did you watch those games or did you base your opinion on a stat sheet?

Let's look at your list. First let me premise back to the original question which was in post 178. "I'd like to see Phils list of 30 players that can step into Riquelmes role for both club and country." The top five to ten was based on influence which is what Hendrix and I were discussing. So based on that criteria, your list doesn't mean much. Give me those top30 that can fill Riquelme's role. Defenders, keepers and to a large degree poachers/strikers are immediately excluded. Care to try again?

I was the one that pointed out that I am not familiar with the bottom half of the South American leagues just like you have no clue about european football. I'm not going to go into the same ridiculous discussion on which is better, if you dont see that there are four or five better leagues in europe superior to Argentina's than there is no hope for you.

As far as Riquelme's rating, I posted players that are currently better than him. For some reason you cant seem to comprehend that I never questioned his talent. You have to include defenders and keepers if need be because that is the point of this thread, pick the top players, not which player is most important for their club. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

I'm tired of your ineptitiude thinking just because you are a boca fan your opinion on riquelme is automatically correct. As you can see on this thread (and the top 20 players thread) very few people thought that Riquelme is without question in the top 10 currently. So you are going to have to get over it. Now do something constructive and post the top five to ten players currently and indicate which out of the players I listed are lower rated than Riquelme, if you are capable of doing so.

[Hendrixforpope]

Why do you people keep arguing about ********ing Riquelme? God, it will never end.

[phil80]

As far as I am concerned it is dropped. He is not in the top 5 nor 10, but 30 most likely..... that is my opinion and moishe is entitled to his own.

[Dr. Know]

No, not just because of the Barca match. He's been in fine form for Atletico for much of the year, if we subtract his brief suspension. Check him in the Uefa Cup. Maybe too early to say top5, but he's been phenomenal and at least deserves some merit.

That he has been. He's scored against all of the top teams in Spain this season. Barca, Madrid, Villarreal, Sevilla, Santander. He's also leading them in assists with 9 in all competitions.

[Hendrixforpope]

Not to mention he's a U-20 World Champion (Golden Ball and Golden Shoe). He has a bright future with Argentina and Atletico.

[Moishe]

I was the one that pointed out that I am not familiar with the bottom half of the South American leagues just like you have no clue about european football. I'm not going to go into the same ridiculous discussion on which is better, if you dont see that there are four or five better leagues in europe superior to Argentina's than there is no hope for you.

As far as Riquelme's rating, I posted players that are currently better than him. For some reason you cant seem to comprehend that I never questioned his talent. You have to include defenders and keepers if need be because that is the point of this thread, pick the top players, not which player is most important for their club. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

I'm tired of your ineptitiude thinking just because you are a boca fan your opinion on riquelme is automatically correct. As you can see on this thread (and the top 20 players thread) very few people thought that Riquelme is without question in the top 10 currently. So you are going to have to get over it. Now do something constructive and post the top five to ten players currently and indicate which out of the players I listed are lower rated than Riquelme, if you are capable of doing so.

Phil when did I ever state anything that contradicts that Europe contains the top five leagues with those leagues having select elite teams? Find me that post, better yet go back and read my posts and find the ones that contradict what you are saying. That is if you're not to busy be the self-righteous futbol expert.

You posted the players you wanted. I asked specifically you to list 30 players that can fill Riquelmes role for club and country and you gave me a random list. Go back and read post 178 I believe it is. This came from a discussion Hendrix and I had in which at one point in post 139 I conceded that Riquelme was not top5. Later on though based on influence on club and country he is top5. So goes Riquelme, so goes club and country. You countered some stuff about Messi playing in the middle. Why? Messi was ineffective, the national team looked sketchy and the biggest Riquelme bashers admitted he was severely missed. Now are you going to list 30 players that can be as influential as Riquelme on their national team and club? Not one or the other but both?

I do thank you for admitting you know nothing about South American futbol. I'm also pretty sure my knowledge of the European game is infinitely stronger that yours of the Americas. Another question I'd like to know is why you chose San Martin and Gimnasia as examples of Riquelme falling in form when he was in fact the most constant offensive threat on the pitch? You didn't watch either game yet you represented it as if you did. Why lie?

Oh and here is the third top five list I've posted in this thread, the first two were club and country. Here is my top five.

1. Messi (only when he plays)
2. Christiano Ronaldo
3. Carlos Tevez
4. Iker Casillas
5. Francesco Totti

[phil80]

Phil when did I ever state anything that contradicts that Europe contains the top five leagues with those leagues having select elite teams? Find me that post, better yet go back and read my posts and find the ones that contradict what you are saying. That is if you're not to busy be the self-righteous futbol expert.

You posted the players you wanted. I asked specifically you to list 30 players that can fill Riquelmes role for club and country and you gave me a random list. Go back and read post 178 I believe it is. This came from a discussion Hendrix and I had in which at one point in post 139 I conceded that Riquelme was not top5. Later on though based on influence on club and country he is top5. So goes Riquelme, so goes club and country. You countered some stuff about Messi playing in the middle. Why? Messi was ineffective, the national team looked sketchy and the biggest Riquelme bashers admitted he was severely missed. Now are you going to list 30 players that can be as influential as Riquelme on their national team and club? Not one or the other but both?

I do thank you for admitting you know nothing about South American futbol. I'm also pretty sure my knowledge of the European game is infinitely stronger that yours of the Americas. Another question I'd like to know is why you chose San Martin and Gimnasia as examples of Riquelme falling in form when he was in fact the most constant offensive threat on the pitch? You didn't watch either game yet you represented it as if you did. Why lie?

Oh and here is the third top five list I've posted in this thread, the first two were club and country. Here is my top five.

1. Messi (only when he plays)
2. Christiano Ronaldo
3. Carlos Tevez
4. Iker Casillas
5. Francesco Totti

I gave you a list of around 30 best players. Now, if you are trying to make your own foolish criteria that does not go along with this thread then open another topic. I brought up Messi filling Riquelme's position because another poster tried to claim Riquelme hasn't missed any matches for Argentina. It was not Messi's natural position so he was not as effective playing there.
About the Boca games, unfortuneatly for you I did watch those games. He had many wasteful shots and mistimed passes and did not look like top10 material against inferior sides. This along with his lack of solid games against top caliber teams in the past year and playing in an inferior league are why I rate the players I did above him. Simple as that.
Now go ahead and list what players Riquelme is superior to, since last time you were incapable of doing this.

[Moishe]

I gave you a list of around 30 best players. Now, if you are trying to make your own foolish criteria that does not go along with this thread then open another topic. I brought up Messi filling Riquelme's position because another poster tried to claim Riquelme hasn't missed any matches for Argentina. It was not Messi's natural position so he was not as effective playing there.
About the Boca games, unfortuneatly for you I did watch those games. He had many wasteful shots and mistimed passes and did not look like top10 material against inferior sides. This along with his lack of solid games against top caliber teams in the past year and playing in an inferior league are why I rate the players I did above him. Simple as that.
Now go ahead and list what players Riquelme is superior to, since last time you were incapable of doing this.

Your impossible. You refuse to answer a simple question which arose from this thread. Your list of 30, while great players didn't not answer the question which hasn't changed since I posted it and asked; what 30 players are as influential for club and country as Riquelme is for BOCA and Argentina? You can't answer the question because you simply can't and you throw a strawman list of 30 that you consider to be the overall best. That's fine but not what I asked of you. As for those two matches you referenced, yes he will have some shots and passes which are mistimed and wasteful, it comes part and parcel with touching the ball as much as he does. All roads leave from Roman. How many other players have that influence? Answer the question Phil and stop with the overly polarized view of World Futbol.

As for players that Riquelme is superior too, based on passing set-pieces, pitch vision and leadership and most importantly reliance from both club and country. Keep in mind Phil this is for players that do all these things for both club and country not one or the other. Also in no order:

1. Cesc - talented player but has not shown yet that he can carry his team nor does he have an advantage in any of the attributes listed above.

2. Ronaldinho - comes the closest but his drop in form has been more drastic than your perceived drop in form of Riquelme over the same period. You gave Ronaldinho a pass by listing him earlier.

3. Juninho - Brilliant maybe the best at set-pieces but definitely not one of the most influential players on his national team. Side perhaps plus he plays in one of the second tier European leagues.

4. Robinho - really emerged to quiet a lot of critics. This year stepped it up for club/country with an excellent Copa but hardly the most influential for either. Last I checked the entire attack does not go through him exclusively.

5. Messi - the most talented player in the world with the highest ceiling. Has become the heart-beat for Barca but is just now finding his way with the albiceleste. His best games for Argentina have been alongside Riquelme, w/o him he's looked average in the blue/white shirt.

6. Viera - Not the best player at Inter nor is he for France. A good player but a bit of a hack and his sides don't really miss him when he's injured these days.

7. Kaka - fabulous player but how much of his success can be attributed to the midfield he plays in for Milan?

8. Joe Cole - The most skilled English player on the ball. When has he picked up Chelsea or England and carried them consistently if ever?

9. Frank Lampard - Brutally overrated and I'll leave it at that. What has he done for England? Chelsea numbers a solid but how many of those gols were rebounds or set-up by another player?

10. Gino Gatusso - I love him to death for his spirit and energy towards the game but how often can you expect him to break your heart with one touch of the ball? Taking nothing away from him as a box2box player but I could see him not being missed if he were to move on.

11. DeRossi - see above.

12. Michael Ballack - Wonderfully talented and at one time as influential to club and country but then came Chelsea. When he didn't play for the Blues, it was arguable that his not being on the pitch made a difference. Yes I know he was injured for a bit. Part of the game though.

13. Arjen Robben - fast and frail. He has yet to elevate any team he's played on. He has had some damn fine performances but never consistently. You can blame some of that on his fragility.

14. Van Nistelroy - Brilliant poacher and holds the ball well even distributes better than some give him credit for but he still doesn't carry a side on his shoulders.

15. Steven Gerrard - The heart of Liverpool but blah for the three lions. His passing while good is nowhere near that of Riquelme nor are his set pieces. He may not even be the best midfielder currently at Liverpool.

16. Javier Mascherano - Currently Liverpools best mid. A huge part of the national team and an awesome reader of the game. Offensively he has a long ways to go to be able to make that one killer pass anytime he touches the ball.

17. Claude Makalele - One of my favorite players but pretty one dimensional. Chelsea misses him when he does not play imho. For France he's just another player in the end that they can win without.

18. Wayne Rooney - Brilliant player who has yet to elevate his game to another level. I think he will but right now his improvement has been incremental. Scores a lot of great gols just not a lot of gols. He doesn't take set pieces for club or country either.

19. Andres Iniesta - Superbly talented and could be a Riquelme type of player but does have a long ways to go. Not the most influential player at Barca and arguable that he is for Spain.

20. Raphael VanDeVaart - Tremendously skilled but still hasn't carried his sides to another level. Capable of it but yet to see it.

21. Franck Ribery - Another brilliant player. Is he as good at set pieces or does he read and distribute like Riquelme? No. Would he be missed by Bayern if injured? Definitely. France? Maybe.

22. Clarence Seedorf - Represented himself well t/o his career but hardly the threat of Riquelme.

23. Michael Carrick - Good player but doesn't need much explination.

24. Esteban Camibiasso - A player I respect for his work rate but he'll never be his teams leader nor will he be relied upon to run the offense either.

25. Xabi Alonso - Very good player but does go silent quite a bit imo.

26. Paul Scholes - Another player I have tremendous respect for but based on the criteria listed above, he does fall short. I'd take him on my team in a heartbeat though. Pure team guy which is hard to find anymore.

27. Mendieta - solid player but that's about it.

28. Yosi Benayoun - Solid but I think Liverpool overpaid for him and he's largely been an invisible man compared to when at WestHam.

29. Mikel Arteta - Solid player that I'd be comfortable having on my side but the guy is never going to set the world on fire.

30. Owen Hargreaves - Respected solid player but I think ManU could have gotten better for less money.

There you are Phil my list of 30 players Riquelme is currently better than based on the criteria I listed above. I know many will disagree and I do look forward to the exchange of dialog as I am open-minded and never insistent on having to be right all the time. I tried to stick with midfielders almost exclusively while throwing in a striker or two. No keepers and no defenders because it's apples and oranges. This list does not reflect who I feel are the best overall players just solely on a criteria I had asked you to use earlier which you won't.

[erick]

top five young players that are not c.ronaldo, messi or rooney :D

1) aguero
2) memo
3) pato
4) anderson
5) fabregas
_________________________________________________
chivas remember this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=M26TmdesvUU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M26TmdesvUU)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX1N64hwXwg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX1N64hwXwg&feature=related)
att: el torito silva :D

[Kulspruta]

4. Robinho - really emerged to quiet a lot of critics. This year stepped it up for club/country with an excellent Copa but hardly the most influential for either. Last I checked the entire attack does not go through him exclusively.
Definitely the most influential for both. I fancy Brazil's chances against other powerhouses without Kaka in the line-up, but I can't see us winning without Robinho right now. Also the most influential for Real Madrid, the only player capable of creating scoring chances regularly in the team.


7. Kaka - fabulous player but how much of his success can be attributed to the midfield he plays in for Milan?
The most fabulous thing about him is that he carried Milan on his back in most of last year's games. The field-lenght runs that smoked the defenders have almost nothing to do with Pirlo, Gattuso, Seedorf and Ambrosini.

[Moishe]

Definitely the most influential for both. I fancy Brazil's chances against other powerhouses without Kaka in the line-up, but I can't see us winning without Robinho right now. Also the most influential for Real Madrid, the only player capable of creating scoring chances regularly in the team.



The most fabulous thing about him is that he carried Milan on his back in most of last year's games. The field-lenght runs that smoked the defenders have almost nothing to do with Pirlo, Gattuso, Seedorf and Ambrosini.

Compelling argument for Robinho and your probably right. If he continues the form for the selecao like he did at the Copa, they're will be no question. Thinking back to Real yes he is probably the most creative but having RVN really helps a ton. Just my opinion.

No doubt Kaka has risen up but you cannot deny he benefits from having that midfield playing with him. If he were to go missing, Pirlo is more than capable of carrying Milan. That last comment is an understatement as I think Pirlo is brilliant.

[lems87]

As for players that Riquelme is superior too, based on passing set-pieces, pitch vision and leadership and most importantly reliance from both club and country. Keep in mind Phil this is for players that do all these things for both club and country not one or the other. Also in no order:

1. Cesc - talented player but has not shown yet that he can carry his team nor does he have an advantage in any of the attributes listed above.

2. Ronaldinho - comes the closest but his drop in form has been more drastic than your perceived drop in form of Riquelme over the same period. You gave Ronaldinho a pass by listing him earlier.

3. Juninho - Brilliant maybe the best at set-pieces but definitely not one of the most influential players on his national team. Side perhaps plus he plays in one of the second tier European leagues.

4. Robinho - really emerged to quiet a lot of critics. This year stepped it up for club/country with an excellent Copa but hardly the most influential for either. Last I checked the entire attack does not go through him exclusively.

5. Messi - the most talented player in the world with the highest ceiling. Has become the heart-beat for Barca but is just now finding his way with the albiceleste. His best games for Argentina have been alongside Riquelme, w/o him he's looked average in the blue/white shirt.

6. Viera - Not the best player at Inter nor is he for France. A good player but a bit of a hack and his sides don't really miss him when he's injured these days.

7. Kaka - fabulous player but how much of his success can be attributed to the midfield he plays in for Milan?

8. Joe Cole - The most skilled English player on the ball. When has he picked up Chelsea or England and carried them consistently if ever?

9. Frank Lampard - Brutally overrated and I'll leave it at that. What has he done for England? Chelsea numbers a solid but how many of those gols were rebounds or set-up by another player?

10. Gino Gatusso - I love him to death for his spirit and energy towards the game but how often can you expect him to break your heart with one touch of the ball? Taking nothing away from him as a box2box player but I could see him not being missed if he were to move on.

11. DeRossi - see above.

12. Michael Ballack - Wonderfully talented and at one time as influential to club and country but then came Chelsea. When he didn't play for the Blues, it was arguable that his not being on the pitch made a difference. Yes I know he was injured for a bit. Part of the game though.

13. Arjen Robben - fast and frail. He has yet to elevate any team he's played on. He has had some damn fine performances but never consistently. You can blame some of that on his fragility.

14. Van Nistelroy - Brilliant poacher and holds the ball well even distributes better than some give him credit for but he still doesn't carry a side on his shoulders.

15. Steven Gerrard - The heart of Liverpool but blah for the three lions. His passing while good is nowhere near that of Riquelme nor are his set pieces. He may not even be the best midfielder currently at Liverpool.

16. Javier Mascherano - Currently Liverpools best mid. A huge part of the national team and an awesome reader of the game. Offensively he has a long ways to go to be able to make that one killer pass anytime he touches the ball.

17. Claude Makalele - One of my favorite players but pretty one dimensional. Chelsea misses him when he does not play imho. For France he's just another player in the end that they can win without.

18. Wayne Rooney - Brilliant player who has yet to elevate his game to another level. I think he will but right now his improvement has been incremental. Scores a lot of great gols just not a lot of gols. He doesn't take set pieces for club or country either.

19. Andres Iniesta - Superbly talented and could be a Riquelme type of player but does have a long ways to go. Not the most influential player at Barca and arguable that he is for Spain.

20. Raphael VanDeVaart - Tremendously skilled but still hasn't carried his sides to another level. Capable of it but yet to see it.

21. Franck Ribery - Another brilliant player. Is he as good at set pieces or does he read and distribute like Riquelme? No. Would he be missed by Bayern if injured? Definitely. France? Maybe.

22. Clarence Seedorf - Represented himself well t/o his career but hardly the threat of Riquelme.

23. Michael Carrick - Good player but doesn't need much explination.

24. Esteban Camibiasso - A player I respect for his work rate but he'll never be his teams leader nor will he be relied upon to run the offense either.

25. Xabi Alonso - Very good player but does go silent quite a bit imo.

26. Paul Scholes - Another player I have tremendous respect for but based on the criteria listed above, he does fall short. I'd take him on my team in a heartbeat though. Pure team guy which is hard to find anymore.

27. Mendieta - solid player but that's about it.

28. Yosi Benayoun - Solid but I think Liverpool overpaid for him and he's largely been an invisible man compared to when at WestHam.

29. Mikel Arteta - Solid player that I'd be comfortable having on my side but the guy is never going to set the world on fire.

30. Owen Hargreaves - Respected solid player but I think ManU could have gotten better for less money.

There you are Phil my list of 30 players Riquelme is currently better than based on the criteria I listed above. I know many will disagree and I do look forward to the exchange of dialog as I am open-minded and never insistent on having to be right all the time. I tried to stick with midfielders almost exclusively while throwing in a striker or two. No keepers and no defenders because it's apples and oranges. This list does not reflect who I feel are the best overall players just solely on a criteria I had asked you to use earlier which you won't.

I have to jump in and argue with you on this point hopefully you won't mind as you said you were open minded. But I would like to go through the players you've listed that I think are actually better than Riquelme. Altho before I start you're criteria for him being better is on the idea that he is a playmaker, not everyone is a playmaker they do other things that contribute to the team and not all teams NEED playmakers.

1. Cesc - he has proved this season over and over again to be able to carry the entire arsenal team on his back, here he is known as 'the conductor.' The other night he almost singlehandedly destroyed milan.

2. Ronaldinho - he has not been at his best recently I agree, but this is partly because of a falling out, he is still able to organise the game and even sneak goals he is just out of this world for quality. Not to be offencive but any quality player could 'carry' a lower team, it always happens, look at Becks/Blanco. It doesnt mean they're the best in the world.

3. Juninho - havent seen enough of him, he's very good at set pieces but not able to carry a team.

4. Robinho - not a play maker he is a speedy striker or support striker, nothing like the kind of player Riquelme is so cant compare.

5. Messi - this boy is brilliant, he is at a team of superstars and is the one that teams fear the most, quite simply in a different class to Riquelme, he outshone him whenever they played against each other. I'm sorry but in my opinion Riquelme doesnt come close, Messi can run, pass, shoot, dribble, score. Riquelme can't shoot or run with the ball AS WELL AS messi.

6. Viera - he is an aging statesman, not one of the top players.

7. Kaka - again a different class to Riquelme, easily able to carry a team. He pretty much carried his entire team to the Champions League last year, not doing AS WELL this year but still always terrifying when he's against your team. A different class.

I'm now bored but I have to point out the Gerrard definitely carries the team, they dont play well when he doesn't play he is simply brilliant, far better than Riquelme and Rooney is equal to Joe Cole. Van der Vaart has lifted Hamburg to another level easily, with clubs throughout Europe desperate for his signature at the moment.

Owen Hargreeves is defensive, probably the best defensive midfielder in the world, he is tireless but not a playmaker. I would say finally that I'm sure Riquelme isn't bad but I would say he's probably at the level of Nedved, but this will keep decreasing while he is playing in leagues of lower difficulty. I think this argument needs to move on from Riquelme, I truly don't believe that he is of the same class of the players you've listed anymore. He also plays a game that is a slower pace than many of the players you've listed and would opt to say that he is no longer able to play at a fast paced league, for instance the last european clubs linked to him were about the calibre of bolton.

[lems87]

One last thing to add to what I said, imagine Kaka, Messi, Cesc, Gerrard, Henry etc turning up at a club in South America or MLS at their current quality, they would be the entire club by themselves.

[Moishe]

I have to jump in and argue with you on this point hopefully you won't mind as you said you were open minded. But I would like to go through the players you've listed that I think are actually better than Riquelme. Altho before I start you're criteria for him being better is on the idea that he is a playmaker, not everyone is a playmaker they do other things that contribute to the team and not all teams NEED playmakers.

1. Cesc - he has proved this season over and over again to be able to carry the entire arsenal team on his back, here he is known as 'the conductor.' The other night he almost singlehandedly destroyed milan.

2. Ronaldinho - he has not been at his best recently I agree, but this is partly because of a falling out, he is still able to organise the game and even sneak goals he is just out of this world for quality. Not to be offencive but any quality player could 'carry' a lower team, it always happens, look at Becks/Blanco. It doesnt mean they're the best in the world.

3. Juninho - havent seen enough of him, he's very good at set pieces but not able to carry a team.

4. Robinho - not a play maker he is a speedy striker or support striker, nothing like the kind of player Riquelme is so cant compare.

5. Messi - this boy is brilliant, he is at a team of superstars and is the one that teams fear the most, quite simply in a different class to Riquelme, he outshone him whenever they played against each other. I'm sorry but in my opinion Riquelme doesnt come close, Messi can run, pass, shoot, dribble, score. Riquelme can't shoot or run with the ball AS WELL AS messi.

6. Viera - he is an aging statesman, not one of the top players.

7. Kaka - again a different class to Riquelme, easily able to carry a team. He pretty much carried his entire team to the Champions League last year, not doing AS WELL this year but still always terrifying when he's against your team. A different class.

I'm now bored but I have to point out the Gerrard definitely carries the team, they dont play well when he doesn't play he is simply brilliant, far better than Riquelme and Rooney is equal to Joe Cole. Van der Vaart has lifted Hamburg to another level easily, with clubs throughout Europe desperate for his signature at the moment.

Owen Hargreeves is defensive, probably the best defensive midfielder in the world, he is tireless but not a playmaker. I would say finally that I'm sure Riquelme isn't bad but I would say he's probably at the level of Nedved, but this will keep decreasing while he is playing in leagues of lower difficulty. I think this argument needs to move on from Riquelme, I truly don't believe that he is of the same class of the players you've listed anymore. He also plays a game that is a slower pace than many of the players you've listed and would opt to say that he is no longer able to play at a fast paced league, for instance the last european clubs linked to him were about the calibre of bolton.

One last thing to add to what I said, imagine Kaka, Messi, Cesc, Gerrard, Henry etc turning up at a club in South America or MLS at their current quality, they would be the entire club by themselves.

Thanks for a well thought out response. Much better than a here's x number and don't argue type of post. Our views on some other those players were not to far off from each others views. Just an exchange of ideas some thought put into it. As far as the inferior leagues stuff, the top teams in Europe get to feed on minnows as well, thats pretty much fact. As far as the aforementioned players blending into South America, on talent no question but how would Gerrard deal with the humidity, heat......adjustment time no different than a South American or African going to Europe.

[lems87]

Thanks for a well thought out response. Much better than a here's x number and don't argue type of post. Our views on some other those players were not to far off from each others views. Just an exchange of ideas some thought put into it. As far as the inferior leagues stuff, the top teams in Europe get to feed on minnows as well, thats pretty much fact. As far as the aforementioned players blending into South America, on talent no question but how would Gerrard deal with the humidity, heat......adjustment time no different than a South American or African going to Europe.

Hmmm....I guess that is a good point as well. Gerrard would probably struggle, I personally feel that is one of the reasons that the England football team always struggles at tournaments as here, football is more of an autumn/winter sport, on the other hand lots of the South Americans usually go to Spain, or sometimes Italy, where the temperature is very similar espectially in the South. I'm personally against tournaments being played in countries which are likely to be overly hot as I think it detracts from the level of football that teams are able to play, this was quite evident at ACON at it was winter! The players had to move slowly as it was so hot in Ghana.

I didn't quite understand what you meant about the European teams feeding on minnows 'as well.' What does this mean (I know we often steal the best young players, unfortunately they can offer them more pay/competition), but on the other hand they can also pay them more, and they often return to south america afterwards which on a small scale is probably quite a big cash boost to the areas altho tht is a petty argument I suppose.

In relation to this strand being about the 'top 5 players,' maybe we could change it to peoples fantasy teams as then people would have to pick players that would go together. Plus it is hard to have a top 5, altho Messi/Kaka/Ronaldo/Drogba/Fabregas do spring to mind.

[erick]

Hmmm....I guess that is a good point as well. Gerrard would probably struggle, I personally feel that is one of the reasons that the England football team always struggles at tournaments as here, football is more of an autumn/winter sport, on the other hand lots of the South Americans usually go to Spain, or sometimes Italy, where the temperature is very similar espectially in the South. I'm personally against tournaments being played in countries which are likely to be overly hot as I think it detracts from the level of football that teams are able to play, this was quite evident at ACON at it was winter! The players had to move slowly as it was so hot in Ghana.

I didn't quite understand what you meant about the European teams feeding on minnows 'as well.' What does this mean (I know we often steal the best young players, unfortunately they can offer them more pay/competition), but on the other hand they can also pay them more, and they often return to south america afterwards which on a small scale is probably quite a big cash boost to the areas altho tht is a petty argument I suppose.

In relation to this strand being about the 'top 5 players,' maybe we could change it to peoples fantasy teams as then people would have to pick players that would go together. Plus it is hard to have a top 5, altho Messi/Kaka/Ronaldo/Drogba/Fabregas do spring to mind.

smh smh smh smh soccer can be played anywhere, (excuses are like buttholes, everyone has them and they stink. as long as you have the passion and love for the team, fan, and the game you can play through anything. football players play in the hot and cold and they have pads.

[lems87]

smh smh smh smh soccer can be played anywhere, (excuses are like buttholes, everyone has them and they stink. as long as you have the passion and love for the team, fan, and the game you can play through anything. football players play in the hot and cold and they have pads.

I don't understand what any of that means, is it some kind of Southern Code? Are you talking about 'football' as in american football at the end? Its fair enough that american football can be played anywhere, but yea, they have pads, they get a break every 5 seconds and celebrate the tiniest thing. 'Soccer' is consistently high paced for 45 mins then another 45 mins, if it is hot they have to play slower as for instance Flamini ran 13km the other night, imagine running that AND concentrating and jumping and diving for that long, anyone would be exhausted.

[Moishe]

Hmmm....I guess that is a good point as well. Gerrard would probably struggle, I personally feel that is one of the reasons that the England football team always struggles at tournaments as here, football is more of an autumn/winter sport, on the other hand lots of the South Americans usually go to Spain, or sometimes Italy, where the temperature is very similar espectially in the South. I'm personally against tournaments being played in countries which are likely to be overly hot as I think it detracts from the level of football that teams are able to play, this was quite evident at ACON at it was winter! The players had to move slowly as it was so hot in Ghana.

I didn't quite understand what you meant about the European teams feeding on minnows 'as well.' What does this mean (I know we often steal the best young players, unfortunately they can offer them more pay/competition), but on the other hand they can also pay them more, and they often return to south america afterwards which on a small scale is probably quite a big cash boost to the areas altho tht is a petty argument I suppose.

In relation to this strand being about the 'top 5 players,' maybe we could change it to peoples fantasy teams as then people would have to pick players that would go together. Plus it is hard to have a top 5, altho Messi/Kaka/Ronaldo/Drogba/Fabregas do spring to mind.

The comment I made about feeding on minnows was more in regards to for example a team the caliber of Real/Milan.... getting paired up in the CL against a team like a Brondby or Vitorio FC or even Hearts. It's not that they are garbage teams, but to suggest that by virtue of their being in Europe by default makes them superior to say Boca, Sao Paolo, Inter, Estudiantes.....is just absurd. In the end it's 11v11 and technically astute side without the mega-millionaires can still be the Real's, Milan's and ManU's of the world. Just look to the Club World Cup and Intercontinental Cup. Some will spout that Europeans don't care about these matches and maybe they don't but the players certainly do. It's just not so cut in dry that if it doesn't happen in Europe then it doesn't matter. That's a very closed minded view that some people have. It's a shame really because they really are depriving themselves of some very nice play.