2 Center System

[quicksand]

I couldn't find a thread about it, so I'll post a new thread.

Yesterday I was informed I would be working in a 2 referee system all year due to a shortage of officials.

What do I need to know about doing this? Especially positioning and the like.

[Alberto]

Evil! Evil! Two man system. Okay, I understand a lot of leagues do this even though the USSF frowns on it. Also, you can't use the match for your game count.

Ask if you can get paired with someone that shares the same philosophy as you. Consistency is the biggest problem with the two man system, so if you can be paired with someone that thinks like you it will be of benefit to the players and yourself.

The two man system in my view breeds passiveness in refereeing. Try to stay close to the play and remember with this system you have the added responsibility of judging offside so many times the issue will be of responsibility for foul calls in your half when the ball is deep into the attacking third of the field. In my view the transition of the attck into the middle of the field is the gap in this system of control. Furthermore, the offside calls are going to be more difficult since you won't always be even with the next to last defender.

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Alberto
Also, you can't use the match for your game count. Maybe a minor point to some, but you're also no longer insured by USSF when you work a 2-man system (if this, is, indeed, a USSF match).

I have no problem with this thread for helping quicksand with the intricacies of the two-man system. But, if this is going to become another long-winded thread on the merits of it viz-a-viz the DSC, can it be closed when it does? Or at least merged with the 4AR thread (where there has been relatively good discussion). I just don't think we need another thread on that topic if that's the turn that this one takes.

[pkCrouse]

Quicksand, you may want to get a copy of the NFHS rule book for soccer. ($6.50 from www.nfhs.org last time I checked.) It has a section in the back that gives some guidance on positioning and responsibilities using the dual system. Unfortunately, NFHS prohibits anyone from reproducing the text online.

Some folks make the transition from the diagonal system to the dual system with little problem. For others, it takes quite a bit of practice before they become comfortable. A few just can't seem to find a way to share the whistle with a partner. In a sense, you alternate back and forth between being the center and assistant referee. As lead, you focus primarily on the action around the ball while also keeping an eye on offside infractions. As trail, you should focus more on action away from the ball and try to help your partner with incidents in the coffin corner. It is more art than science, but then isn't that the case with all officiating?

Alberto gives you the best advice that any of us could give, which is to try to get yourself paired with someone who shares your "vision" of the game. It certainly cuts down on embarrassing situations, like when the lead is signaling advantage only to have the trail blowing the whistle half a second later. I agree wholeheartedly with MassRef that we shouldn't let this thread degenerate into (another) debate about the merits or evils of the dual system. Quicksand is looking for help on how to adjust to a system that he apparently had no say in choosing.

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
Maybe a minor point to some, but you're also no longer insured by USSF when you work a 2-man system (if this, is, indeed, a USSF match).

I have never had occasion to use the Oft tauted "insurance" that we are supposedly covered by but I do have a referee friend in the DC area who was assaulted some years ago and as a result had to have reconstructive shoulder injury. According to him, USSF would not cover him. Anyone have any experiences with this issue?

[Greyhnd00]

I would also point out that the communiication between the two referees need to be good for this system to work better(I dont like it either)
Particularly with respect to advantage you have to be diligent to signal AND/OR call "advantage so you counterpart knows that you are playing advantage and havent missed a call.
For me, consistancy isnt the main issue it is the inability to get in the middle of the field and work with the players to control the game..........and besides if I dont think THREE is enough, you know what Im gonna say about two. :)

[Claymore]

Originally posted by Greyhnd00
I have never had occasion to use the Oft tauted "insurance" that we are supposedly covered by but I do have a referee friend in the DC area who was assaulted some years ago and as a result had to have reconstructive shoulder injury. According to him, USSF would not cover him. Anyone have any experiences with this issue?

Was your friend working a USSF-sanctioned match? Some of the men's leagues in this area aren't affiliated.

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by Claymore


Was your friend working a USSF-sanctioned match? Some of the men's leagues in this area aren't affiliated. He claimed he was although I dont remember the name of the league. We worked alot together before I moved and we both madde it a point to only work sanctioned games........as you know, there is so much work in that area that you dont need to do anything you dont want to.

[billf]

Originally posted by Greyhnd00
I have never had occasion to use the Oft tauted "insurance" that we are supposedly covered by but I do have a referee friend in the DC area who was assaulted some years ago and as a result had to have reconstructive shoulder injury. According to him, USSF would not cover him. Anyone have any experiences with this issue?

I think the USSF is liability insurance, not medical insurance. I belive it's supposed to cover you if you are sued in connection with a match incident.

[Alberto]

Originally posted by billf


I think the USSF is liability insurance, not medical insurance. I belive it's supposed to cover you if you are sued in connection with a match incident.

That's exactly what's it there for. Check on your registration renewal form. There should be a copy of the certificate of insurance.

[quicksand]

Thanks for the advice. Sucks about the match count, but I really wasn't all that sure if I will ever try and upgrade or not.

[faizalenu]

Unfortunately, this is the reality for a lot of leagues, high school and otherwise.

Really should call this the two lineman system, since the referees are on opposite sides of the field, usually in line with offsides.

It is not really that much more difficult, except that because there are two whistles, it is easy to end up with egg on your face. Things to remember:

1) Stay with the STLD unless the ball is deep in the other end of the field.

2) I the area of the field near the other referee, give that referee "first crack" an calling any fouls.

3) In the pregame conference, decide how you are going to handle corners, PKs and set pieces.


Originally posted by pkCrouse
Quicksand, you may want to get a copy of the NFHS rule book for soccer. ($6.50 from www.nfhs.org last time I checked.) It has a section in the back that gives some guidance on positioning and responsibilities using the dual system. Unfortunately, NFHS prohibits anyone from reproducing the text online.

Some folks make the transition from the diagonal system to the dual system with little problem. For others, it takes quite a bit of practice before they become comfortable. A few just can't seem to find a way to share the whistle with a partner. In a sense, you alternate back and forth between being the center and assistant referee. As lead, you focus primarily on the action around the ball while also keeping an eye on offside infractions. As trail, you should focus more on action away from the ball and try to help your partner with incidents in the coffin corner. It is more art than science, but then isn't that the case with all officiating?

Alberto gives you the best advice that any of us could give, which is to try to get yourself paired with someone who shares your "vision" of the game. It certainly cuts down on embarrassing situations, like when the lead is signaling advantage only to have the trail blowing the whistle half a second later. I agree wholeheartedly with MassRef that we shouldn't let this thread degenerate into (another) debate about the merits or evils of the dual system. Quicksand is looking for help on how to adjust to a system that he apparently had no say in choosing.

[faizalenu]

MassRef, I used to live in Upstate New York, and we went to a TMD system when the Referees forced us to affiliate with USSF. After a while, only two refs showed up for every game and they went with a two man system. Another referee in Massachusetts said that this was blatantly illegal and that we should have went with one central, one referee assistant, and one club linesman.

I am interested in your thoughts on this one.




Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
Maybe a minor point to some, but you're also no longer insured by USSF when you work a 2-man system (if this, is, indeed, a USSF match).

I have no problem with this thread for helping quicksand with the intricacies of the two-man system. But, if this is going to become another long-winded thread on the merits of it viz-a-viz the DSC, can it be closed when it does? Or at least merged with the 4AR thread (where there has been relatively good discussion). I just don't think we need another thread on that topic if that's the turn that this one takes.

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by faizalenu
Unfortunately, this is the reality for a lot of leagues, high school and otherwise.

Really should call this the two lineman system, since the referees are on opposite sides of the field, usually in line with offsides.

It is not really that much more difficult, except that because there are two whistles, it is easy to end up with egg on your face. Things to remember:

1) Stay with the STLD unless the ball is deep in the other end of the field.

2) I the area of the field near the other referee, give that referee "first crack" an calling any fouls.

3) In the pregame conference, decide how you are going to handle corners, PKs and set pieces.




I'm going to have to disagree with you here. What you DON'T want to do is treat a 2 referee system like a 2 linesman system. You cannot properly cover the fouls if you are both at the corners of the "play" staying with 2nd last defender and staying close to your line.

You have to move into the other half of the field and toward the center as play evolves in order to be in position to make the calls.

However, it does mean that you have to be fast enough and fit enough to get back up field to cover your offside calls.

Point #3 is a definite!!

[faizalenu]

I did not say that you have to be in the corners, but you cannot get caught in the middle an miss offsides.

You can call fouls if you are away from the play, it is near impossible to call offsides if you are not even with the second to last defender. I agree that you have to cheat, but when I have seen this work the best, they look like two linesmen, usually with the opposite side ref cheating to see the far side of the field.

When I have seen it look worse is when it referees are out of position.

Overall, it is a terrible system, but I have seen it work.

Also, two good referees are better that one bad one.





Originally posted by kevbrunton


I'm going to have to disagree with you here. What you DON'T want to do is treat a 2 referee system like a 2 linesman system. You cannot properly cover the fouls if you are both at the corners of the "play" staying with 2nd last defender and staying close to your line.

You have to move into the other half of the field and toward the center as play evolves in order to be in position to make the calls.

However, it does mean that you have to be fast enough and fit enough to get back up field to cover your offside calls.

Point #3 is a definite!!

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by faizalenu
I did not say that you have to be in the corners, but you cannot get caught in the middle an miss offsides.

Note that I said corner of "play" -- I did not mean the corner of the field.

Originally posted by faizalenu
Overall, it is a terrible system, but I have seen it work.

Definitely agree with you here. In my area, about half the schools use a 2 man system for the JV high school games. The referee association has been and continues to push for using 3 man crews for all games, but the schools do their budgets 2 and 3 years at a time, so it's taking a couple years to get it put into effect. We have also had to do some recruiting to get a few more referees. We also use it for the high school age recreational league in the spring.

At times I really hate this system. In the spring doing the rec HS league, all the guys are USSF referees, so we've all had consistent training, etc. and I can't remember having any problems with the games or the people I was working with.

But 2 of the last 3 nights, I've done HS JV games with guys that were NFHS refs (not USSF) and we definitely had some differences in foul recognition, positioning, etc. There were a couple gafs.

In one situation, player A1 fouled player B1 pretty hard, but B1 maintain the attack and I gave the "play on" with signal loud and clear. About 3 steps later there still being some fairly minor contact between the two, the other referee from across the field whistles a foul on B1 and signals pushing. Both coaches were asking me (since I was on their side of the field) why he called that. All I could say was he must have seen something I didn't.

[faizalenu]

I meant corner of play also, which is what you have when when both officials are on opp. sides of the field and even with the last defender.

The other referee does need to leave his STLD, but should err on the side of not missing offside.

I don't think you will get rid of this soon because not only do the school's like it (lower cost), but so do the referee's in many cases (more money).

Most full time referees get enough games so that AR game count is not an issue.


Also, what does NFHS stand for?


Originally posted by kevbrunton
[B]

Note that I said corner of "play" -- I did not mean the corner of the field.

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by faizalenu
I meant corner of play also, which is what you have when when both officials are on opp. sides of the field and even with the last defender.

The other referee does need to leave his STLD, but should err on the side of not missing offside.

I don't think you will get rid of this soon because not only do the school's like it (lower cost), but so do the referee's in many cases (more money).

Most full time referees get enough games so that AR game count is not an issue.


Also, what does NFHS stand for?




In our area, we get the same for the game regardless of 2 man or 3 man. Most schools pay $35 for JV, $45 for Varsity -- those mostly have lights and you're doing BOTH in one night. Some pay $40 for JV, $50 for Varsity and those tend to be the schools without lights so when you go, you only get to do one game.

So around here, the referees would almost all rather do a 3 man system.

NFHS = National Federation of High Schools -- the governing body of high school sports and therefore HS soccer

When I mention someone as being NFHS only, that means they're not a USSF licensed referee. They only referee soccer for high school, not for anything else.