PDA

View Full Version : The Third Wave of Attack [R]


Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Dark Savante
21 Jan 2008, 10:44 AM
In war a wave of attack usually relates to a number of units mobilising in sequential order, one after the other. Depending on tactical instruction given and the number of troops at hand, the number of waves can vary greatly.

In football, a wave of attack usually relates to the three distinct outfield compartments of a team: Forwards, midfielders and defenders, thus:

4-4-2

1st wave: --------------Striker
---------------Support Striker
2nd wave:
Winger--------------------------------Winger
----------Midfielder---Midfielder
3rd wave:
Full-back------------------------------Full-back
----------Centre-back-Centre-back

Of course, if we were to get technical and rather pedantic, we could say that the 1st and 2nd wave can be broken down further into this:

1st wave: Striker
2nd wave: Support Striker
3rd wave: Wingers
4th wave: (A) Midfielder(s)
5th wave: Full-backs
6th wave: (A) Centre-back(s)

But, that’s not really how I recognise it and for simplicities sake, I will be leaving this at three distinct waves.



Purpose



The purpose of each wave from a tactical perspective is usually to generate enough space and opportunity for a player on the team to have a goal-scoring chance or increase the odds of there being a goal via their interference with the opposition-schematic.

An example of this can be observed in every single game you’ve ever seen in your life in the constant striker vs. centre-back battle. The first wave of an attack always aims to occupy and stretch the very heart of the side they are trying to break down. Depending on the talent of the players in the first wave of an attack, you can figure out just how many players one single wave of attack can occupy.

As a single player in a one-wave attack Didier Drogba is probably the most difficult opponent in world football. Luca Toni is another who has his moments also. The reason why I believe them to be at the forefront in this aspect of the game is the combination of attributes both players have and the constant need for assistance from midfielders that centre-backs who face them need. The combination of pace, power, aerial ability, doggedness, long-range ability and awkwardness both players represent, often means that the second wave of attack for their teams are given a freer ride of it when it comes to build-up play because the defensive schematic in place to stop them has often been broken down or forced into change or panic, which obviously drives, say, a defensive midfielder back to help and has him abandon the midfielder(s) he had his eye on during the build-up play, allowing said midfielder the room and opportunities he wouldn’t be afforded without the ‘battering ram’s’ presence and disruption.


As a duo in a one-wave attack we can look to numerous partnerships around the world and discuss the pros and cons of what they do without really having a numero uno, but rather a preference due to style. I haven’t done the statistical work to know by productivity who are the most devastating partnerships in world football right now, but would say, by my own eye, that Ruud Van Nistlerooy and Raul are the most dangerous I’ve seen this season. The intent is always there with RVN, which of course is what he is famed for. If there is a half-chance he’ll be on it and with Raul’s resurgence and experience, you see these two constantly wreaking havoc with defensive set-ups that they face, which enables the second wave for their side to have quite a party in behind them.

In a trio one-wave attack there’s no side currently better than Manchester United – to the point where a whopping 33 out of 46 league goals in 23 games has been scored by one from Ronaldo, Rooney or Tevez. That’s 71.7% of the total output of goals coming from one wave of attack, and whilst I am not going to work out the percentage output of the first waves of our attack from previous sides (especially pre-Ruud) I’m certain that those numbers are at least top 3 during Fergie’s entire tenure here.



The Second Wave of Attack



In every club side in the world you can be assured that two waves of attack will be employed in every single game they play. The second wave most often supplies the majority of goals for the first whilst scoring a fair share themselves. A simple way to figure out the second wave of the attack in sides you’re unsure about is to observe the mobilisation of the midfield unit as soon as an attack starts. Normally the two wide-men will bomb on up the pitch and one central or attacking midfielder will be involved in the attack as well.. The personnel and positioning of the second-wave attackers will vary tremendously from one formation to another. i.e, an orthodox or ‘dual-winged’ 4-4-2 fits the precise description given above in this paragraph.

A diamond 4-4-2, however, would not. In this instance the second wave is most often the central man at the top end of the diamond – the attacking midfielder – and from there a number of variations regarding ‘waves’ can occur, be it the full-backs expected to join whilst the wider midfielders in the centre hold position and join as a cautious third wave, wary of the counter:

Diamond 4-4-2

1st wave:
-------- --------------Striker
-------------Support Striker
2nd wave:
----------------Attacking Midfielder
^---------------------------------------------^
FB------------------------------------------FB
3rd wave:-----^----------------------^
-----Central Midfielder---Central Midfielder

This system is mostly seen in South America. The last magical exponent of it that I remember was the early 2000’s River Plate Model which had Leonardo Astrada at the back of diamond as the DM .

Or, a basic mobilisation of the second wave as either three attacking midfielders running at an equidistance to each other, or one attacking midfielder flanked by two box-to-box men expected to run forward whilst sweeping up scraps defensively if needs be, which relegates the full-backs to the more orthodox role of 3rd wave of the attack, which they are generally used as all over the world.

As this thread isn’t intended to be a formation discussion I will avoid doing other systems, although, this stuff is very easy to work out for yourselves if you take a moment to consider how a side you watch attacks. Their patterns and routines can be figured out within five attacks, usually.

A productive second wave can be universally acknowledged by it’s contribution to the team as an attacking force. In this aspect, we are way, way down on what is typically Manchester United as there are no goals coming from the middle of the pitch, nor are there assists being supplied with abundance. There’s no doubt we can improve vastly in this area this season.



The Third Wave Of Attack



I can finally get to the bones of the thread now that I’ve laid some decent enough foundations (I hope) and discuss what the third wave of an attack does and why it can be so lethal to an attacking team. In the first and second wave of attacks there is no deviation whatsoever from the well-trodden path – every team in the world uses at least two waves of attack, without exception, but in the third wave things diversify dramatically and where with the first two waves a uniform, set-in-stone method is apparent, come the third wave and you’ll really see what the philosophy of the team in question is about.

A team that doesn’t commit full-backs to the attack is almost always seen as negative and defensive. Reason being is that if your full-backs rarely commit to the attack you’re ensuring there will be no room for the opposing team to spring counters into space you’ve abandoned by brashly venturing forward. You’re ensuring that your own defensive scheme is intact first and foremost and the term ‘caution to the wind’ is non-applicable to your side. Mourinho’s Chelsea were renowned for it and counter-attacking them was incredibly difficult because there was never a lack of shape to actually exploit, which is one of the foundations of a good counter-attack.

On the other side of the coin famous exponents of marvellous third wave attacking can be seen in many teams over the last 15 years. A few of the most awesome being: Brazil with Cafu and Roberto Carlos; Arsenal’s left side with Cole, Pires and Henry; Real Madrid with Roberto Carlos and Fernando Hierro; Germany with Mathias Sammer; Manchester United with Gary Neville and Denis Irwin; Barcelona with Sergi and Koeman; France with Lizarizu and Thuram. There are others, but I think it becomes quite fractious after these teams, namely because the effectiveness of the sides is not backed-up with trophies or the ability to leap the final hurdle with a strong influence from the third wave of their attack.

In each of these sides the players who were nominally defenders had an immense influence on the overall attacking intent and influence of their teams, you can go as far as to say that without them, said teams would not have been able to deliver in the same way and the very foundations and ethos of said teams would have to alter dramatically without the influence of these third-wave players. I will take three or four from the pack to discuss in further detail.



Understanding the third wave and it’s influence



It’s not hard to spot a dynamic full-back or a centre-back who comes up routinely from the back. If you haven’t spotted him, the commentators and pundits will alert you to their presence soon enough. There’s your generic attackers, which nearly every side who isn’t defensive have, who run on tracks up and down the flanks constantly and reap benefits for their team eventually via the tried and tested methods, and then there are the dynamic full-backs and central defenders who are so devastating at what they do when they join an attack from the third-wave, that they have to be planned for as individuals.

The three most notorious third-wavers in the list above are Roberto Carlos, Mathias Sammer and Cafu, in that order. There was a point in Roberto Carlos’ career that he was responsible for 33% of Real Madrid’s scoring ratio over a season! This was a statistic that tpmazembe presented to us in one of the greatest projects ever seen on Big Soccer, and I don’t think anyone who saw Robarto Carlos in full-flight would question. He, like Ashley Cole for the ‘Invincible’ season at Arsenal, was constantly seen to overload the left flank to bursting point, which played havoc with the opposition schematics and saw him along with Redondo and Raul in the first incarnation, and then he Solari and Zidane come together to win Real Madrid three European Cups in six years, he had a massive hand in each and every one of the cups and it was from his side of the field that the majority of the games in each of those tournaments were won.

The same pretty much goes for Cafu, but with a much lower goal-threat and a more considered and balanced approach to defending. As most of his best games were for country rather than club, he is not held in the same esteem as his erstwhile left-back partner.

Mathias Sammer is a legend for a many reasons. The main one being that this was a sweeper who read the game and came up as the third wave of attack with such devastating ease and aplomb that he was seen as the first true successor to Franz Beckenbauer the world had seen. For both Borussia Dortmund and Germany he held the ultimate influence and his timely contributions to the attack for both teams won them top honours. For his newly-formed country (he was East German and re-unified with the West after the Berlin Wall crumbled) he was one of, if not the most influential and determinable figure for them winning Euro ’96, and for Dortmund his brilliance took them to the European Cup. What made Sammer unique to the list is that he was a ball-carrier first and foremost. His runs would start from an extremely deep position and would continue through midfield, into the final third and further still, into goal-scoring or shooting positions at which time he would always do the best thing in a given scenario. If that meant shooting and scoring or passing and being an essential cog in a goal, he could deliver in equal measure.

Now to understand why these players were able to influence the game so routinely from such deep initial positions requires us to look at the schematic of one side overlaid with another. In most situations the first wave of the attack pre-occupies the central defensive pairing first and foremost, the second wave tussle between themselves in what is the most decisive area of the pitch (the midfield battle) and a third wave of attack tends to mobilise once the second wave have shown themselves to be dominant over the opposition. The third wave obviously has to pick and chose when to go forward because it is extremely tiring to run from 70 yards out to make up the ground only for the attack to fail.

You have one type of system that intends to simply force this issue by overloading a flank with men and forcing the opposition to break ranks in order to match three men against three – this is something Wenger’s Arsenal were absolutely superb at when Ashley Cole was there. The third wave players effectively becomes the spare man or the guy with a free role once the 2nd wave player takes the wide man tracking him with him and the first wave player who has drifted to a flank has taken a full-back and a centre-back out of position. Of course this boils down to the quality of the players involved, their intelligence and their technique and one touch ability. At the time of the ‘Invincible’ season Robert Pires and Thierry Henry were practically unplayable at a domestic level and both needed a double-team to be contained in the first place, so when you add on an immense attacking full-back with the understanding of where to go to reap the benefits of being the free man, it becomes clear immediately how and why the third wave can be so effective. If a lesser trio tried the same tactics, it’d more than likely lead to a painful lesson in counter attacking football.

This talent level of the first and second wave is essential to all the teams and exponents of spectacular third wave play. All of the teams I mentioned above that these players came from were incredible and that’s when and why the third wave can essentially be free for the duration of an attack. What it requires, however, is an innate and automatic understanding of where those who are covering should go once the defender beside them saunters off up the field.

Mathias Sammer had two stoppers beside him in a three-man backline which basically meant they became a centre-back pairing once he broke rank and went up-field. He also had two solid midfielders who would sit and allow him to go past them – these measures were all put in place so that if Sammer did lose the ball on one of his runs, the shape of the team wasn’t susceptible to collapse should a rapid counter be sprung. In both Roberto Carlos’ teams he was covered in central midfield by one of the best to have ever played the position in Fernando Redondo who read the situations and covered Carlos smoothly, and then another in Claude Makelele who was equally immense defensively. At national level Carlos was also afforded a DM on his inside and then a 3-5-2 set-up by Scolari, which gave him the protection Sammer was privy to. The same kind of protection was also afforded to Ashley Cole with Gilberto constantly anchoring the galavanting trio.

In all instances it is essential that the play ahead of the third wave is comfortably controlled by the midfield as the function of the third wave is to act as an extra man or men, one who is free because the other side is occupied by those ahead of them. The best third wave attackers tend to be opportunistic and able to understand where space is likely to develop.




So what does that mean for us?



We are a developing team at the moment. We’re not even sure what our first xi is or what the jobs of the central midfielders should be. Currently they deliver no goals and are not particularly dangerous as a component in the second wave of our attack. I alluded to this earlier in the thread as being not United-like in the slightest – normal service for us used to mean goals and assists through the middle. Our third wave essentially played in a more routine manner, which revolved around common sense i.e a player like a prime Ryan Giggs gets the ball on the flank, you, as a full-back, are going to have lots of chances to run in behind him, knowing Ryan’s ability, pace and consistency in committing more than one man to him meant running in behind him is likely to pay off, even if you are just playing the numbers.

Then you have a player like Patrice Evra who has the foundations and dynamism of a Roberto Carlos at times with the way he tries to [u]make[/u[ things happen, rather than play the numbers in behind a winger. Where we could probably wonder what could be is in the right flank and Rio Ferdinand. The absence of Gary Neville clearly imbalances our attack. Feasibly, with Ronaldo wreaking the havoc he is currently and the amount of men he commits to attempt to contain him, the right-back, if he were an attacking one, or at least comfortable going up, would have a field day in all that space.

I think we’ve seen in young Simpson’s few games the effect on the team a proper overlapping full-back can have in the current side. Simpson has been unlucky on at least two attempts and realistically could have had three goals in less than ten games for us! The positions he gets himself into are those you would expect of Evra on the other flank and I do believe this side will add an extra dimension once we have a proper full-back out there, whether that’s Gary, Danny or a new guy remains to be seen.

Finally, we get to Rio and the biggest quandary of them all. To go straight through the middle of an opposing side from a centre-back position is perhaps the most foolhardy thing to do in football unless you are a player of exceptional technical and tactical understanding of what’s going on around you and how to exploit it to suit you. Sammer is the modern-day master of this, no player has come close to dictating a game from deep or influencing it so many times by actual carriage of the ball.

In Rio we have a footballer of high all-round acumen, to the point where you could say he could comfortably play a number of positions on the pitch if he wasn’t so damn good in his nominal one. When Rio carries the ball up from the back you feel quite assured he can skip past one or two players, play a one-two, run into space where he senses the ball will go or even get himself into goal-scoring positions. He has shown far more adroitness in the final third than Carrick and Hargreaves combined – Rio seems to know what to do in final 3rd situations, something you need from a dynamic third wave attacker – and on his one or two jaunts up-field, there’s more sense of danger or something happening to the good, than I think you get from either of the aforementioned midfielders during an entire match.

As an actual footballer, considering everything that encompasses, it’s quite hard to gauge where Rio’s actual level lies. We see glimpses of this or that skill, but definitively it’s hard to know whether Rio can do that more often than he can’t. It would seem to me that he can, because on the few moves he involves himself with in the final 3rd the play does not break down at his feet, unless his shot goes wide, which is quite different.

If it is indeed the case that Rio has such a level to his game, it could make more sense for him to break from the back with Carrick and Hargreaves sitting in behind him that vice versa in games where we are dictating play.

Carrick is very hesitant and unsure of himself in the final third – far more uncomfortable and indecisive there than Rio, for certain, and Hargreaves is even worse.. Rio actually has more goals than the two of them combined, well, he in fact has three goals to their combined total of zero.. funnily enough, in what must be about an eighth of the time spent up-field than the pair of them.

What this points to, I think is fairly apparent. If the central pairing consists of those two, we’d do better to have them sit behind Rio during attacks than to get in his way. The obvious concern is the counter measures that open up if a centre-back is not in position, but if we have a side pushed back, it’s much, much harder to go route one and punt to a single man who is covered by a CB and two midfielders sitting in midfield, than it is to get into the space two midfielders pushed high up the pitch leave in behind themselves , which always means carriage of the ball a good forty yards before they are met by the CB pairing behind them.

I don’t know if we’ll see a conscious effort to get Rio into a proper and recognised role as a Sammer-type of player, but I really think it should be considered with the poor central midfield pairings we have out there in the offensive sense at times.

Charleysurf
21 Jan 2008, 10:58 AM
Sweet Jesus man! Please tell me you're writing a book on all this. It's wasted on our fickle minds!


Love the analysis, but I wonder about basing our tactics around Rio too much. I already worry what will happen if he get's injured. If we start to rely on him in forward positions then we will have way too many eggs in that basket.

Dark Savante
21 Jan 2008, 11:09 AM
^ Well, if we want to see what Rio can really d, with all gloves and restrictions off it's something to seriously consider.

Normally it would be a non-issue, but I think with a complete derth of goals from our central midfield it's something we should look at very seriously.

Twix
21 Jan 2008, 11:21 AM
Great thread and it tore a thread idea that I had to shreds. Wonderful write up and very insightful but I do have a couple of qs though.


If Scholes or Anderson is playing, then I don't feel that there is an urgent need of a libero(isn't that the technical name?). The fact that Carrick and Hargreaves naturally play so deep while Scholes and Anderson sometimes raid forward should be taking into consideration. If Rio is going forward while Scholes/Anderson is playing, there wil be too much space to be exploited for a counter attack. I could see Carrick/Hargreaves sitting in front of the back four while Rio forays forward but I doubt Scholes or Anderson would.

Anyways I'll put it shortly, how would Rio go forward in a Scholes/Anderson partnership?

MtP07
21 Jan 2008, 11:30 AM
The only problem is that we do not have that defensive anchor like the teams you mentioned above. Our back line seems to lose a lot without Rio point-and-clicking them into place, Hargreaves does not have much positional sense, and Carrick is not really suited to it either.

I do agree that Rio offers a lot when going forward, but until we get a DM or complete faith in our back line sans Rio, he should keep his ventures forward to a minimum.

Dark Savante
21 Jan 2008, 11:39 AM
Great thread and it tore a thread idea that I had to shreds. Wonderful write up and very insightful but I do have a couple of qs though.


If Scholes or Anderson is playing, then I don't feel that there is an urgent need of a libero(isn't that the technical name?). The fact that Carrick and Hargreaves naturally play so deep while Scholes and Anderson sometimes raid forward should be taking into consideration. If Rio is going forward while Scholes/Anderson is playing, there wil be too much space to be exploited for a counter attack. I could see Carrick/Hargreaves sitting in front of the back four while Rio forays forward but I doubt Scholes or Anderson would.

Anyways I'll put it shortly, how would Rio go forward in a Scholes/Anderson partnership?
I did actually say he shouldn't go forward if Scholes/Anderson are out there, but in not in so many words, but with Carrick and Hargreaves, he has more attacking nous than the pair of them so it would make sense to exploit this when and where we can (i.e teams hanging on for dear life, but needing that little push to keel over.)
The only problem is that we do not have that defensive anchor like the teams you mentioned above. Our back line seems to lose a lot without Rio point-and-clicking them into place, Hargreaves does not have much positional sense, and Carrick is not really suited to it either.

I do agree that Rio offers a lot when going forward, but until we get a DM or complete faith in our back line sans Rio, he should keep his ventures forward to a minimum.

Carrick is far more comfortable sitting and that's his natural instinct anyway, If we are attacking and have a team under the cosh, it's nigh on impossible for them to break in numbers if the CM's hold shape and have that bit of cynicism needed to nip something in the bud.

Twix
21 Jan 2008, 11:49 AM
I know Carrick hasn't scored and has looked uncomfortable in the final 3rd this season but last year Carrick showed promise of being an attacking threat (albeit it was for like only 5 matches). At Spurs, he showed desire to go forward and attack as well. I still believe Rio, who could do a job upfront, is definitely needed in defence and even if we are raping teams, I would feel uncomfortable with only Vidic at the back to lead the back line. Also if Carrick does develop some more compusure behind the front line, wouldn't that be more worthwile than Rio making forays up the pitch?

So don't you think we should experiment with Carrick higher up the field to assess just how well he does behind the first wave or is he a lost cause?

United Forever
21 Jan 2008, 12:11 PM
So would you say that Scholes should be the mentor of Anderson with a Scholes Hargreaves pairing being the pairing mostly used? This is assuming Hargreaves can stay fit :rolleyes:

Invincible
21 Jan 2008, 12:35 PM
Excellent thread, and the point that gets me the most is the one you make about Rio bombing forward and the third wave in general. This is why I was at loggerheads with a lot of people in that whole Anderson vs Gerrard debate. I couldn't understand why people would want Gerrard in our midfield, and the simple reply was:"He'd get lots of goals from midfield, we need goals in midfield." But to me, that made no sense. In my mind, I've already embraced the idea that we rely on 4 attackers and 2 fullbacks to bomb forward and cause the mayem/score the goals, while 2 central midfielders sat deep and just kept the team ticking. Gerrard would be useless in our system because in our system, our central midfielders' main aim is to methodically pass the ball around, dragging teams all over the place, looking for space to thread either a hollywood ball through, or to move the ball even further up the field. In my opinion, Gerrard is a forcefull type of player, he likes to force the play a lot so I couldn't picture him passing and moving passing and moving passing and moving like a Scholes/Carrick combo does.

People were and still are in a sense, stuck in the Keane/Scholes mode where they expect at least one of our central midfielders to be scoring tons of goals, but we have an extremely different team now and I've already come to terms with it. I think Fergie has as well.

Achtung
21 Jan 2008, 12:49 PM
DS, are you a witch?[/Cleveland]

I can't even count how many times in the Reading game I wished we had someone ghosting into the box in a proper position. A few times Giggs and/or Carrick got in there, but nothing nearly as effective as what Scholes can bring to the team. We're still learning how Carrick, Hargreaves, and Anderson fit into our team and how they play off of one another. They are not and will not be Scholes-Keane though.

If we're going to use fullbacks as that second wave, I don't think Brown will quite work there, and surprisingly Evra has become a bit more defensive as well over the past year, which is a bit disappointing.

The Rooney-Ronaldo-Tevez grouping is exciting to watch and has been largely effective. But I think that a more organized, "sophisticated" defense would be able to handle them much more efficiently. We need something a bit less predictable for games against tougher backlines.

J'can
21 Jan 2008, 11:58 PM
Not that it is any of my busines but DS, you are getting some at least once in a while, right?

J'can
22 Jan 2008, 12:38 AM
Okay I read through the entire post and loved it. I do agree with you that Rio should be used more going forward. With our backline being what it is now, they would have to play a little bit intelligently to ensure we are not burned on the counter. For example, If the trio is the first wave and Evra pushing forward is hte second wave, then if Rio ghosting is a viable third wave then Brown has to stay at home. This applies whether it is Carrick/Hargy or Anderson Scholes or any combnation thereof.

This Rio as a third wave should work because our lineup is not static (ala Chelsea last year and prior). If the ball is on one side then the players on the opposite flank must be intelligent enough to read the game and gauge how far forward they are going. If both fullbacks are pushed up, then Rio being the intelligent player we make him out to be would not advance. Conversely if Rio is advanced then the central pairing must recognise this and compensate.

The point I am trying to make is that this Rio as a third wave is only a third wave when Rio sees something to exploit. If we are at risk then it would be foolish for him to advance whehter that is a directive from SAF or not. If we do employ this as a team tactic then other players must learn to compensate.

I saw Rio do that a few times in the Newcastle game to the point where he scored. that move was beautiful to watch. i firmly think that SAF should take the shackles off and use this tactic more in big games.

The other point i want to address is that the trio of Tevez Roo and Ronaldo is our first wave. I think the way they interchange they qualify as a first and second wave when they rotate and interchange so much. It is like playing with four fowards expecially when we play against mid table and lower teams. So among (amoung) those three we have two waves of attack already which means Rio is our fourth wave.

Drae
22 Jan 2008, 01:16 AM
I think we’ve seen in young Simpson’s few games the effect on the team a proper overlapping full-back can have in the current side. Simpson has been unlucky on at least two attempts and realistically could have had three goals in less than ten games for us! The positions he gets himself into are those you would expect of Evra on the other flank and I do believe this side will add an extra dimension once we have a proper full-back out there, whether that’s Gary, Danny or a new guy remains to be seen.

I think this is the most glaring deficit in our squad currently. As you have said, the havoc that Ronaldo can cause down the right side (or wherever he is drifting) and the amount of defenders he draws to him creates space and opportunity that Wes is unable to capitalize on. How often have we seen Wes struggle pushing up on the right, either in terms of pace, holding possession, passing or making a quality cross. Of course, these expectations are unreasonable because this is not Wes's natural position, and he is being compared to Gary. But at the end of the day, this is what the squad needs, and no doubt something Sir Alex will look at very closely in the Summer, once we know where Gary is at.

Finally, we get to Rio and the biggest quandary of them all. To go straight through the middle of an opposing side from a centre-back position is perhaps the most foolhardy thing to do in football unless you are a player of exceptional technical and tactical understanding of what’s going on around you and how to exploit it to suit you. Sammer is the modern-day master of this, no player has come close to dictating a game from deep or influencing it so many times by actual carriage of the ball.

This is a really interesting way to think about solutions to the current issues we have through our central midfield. As you say, Rio probably has both the football brain and the skills to able to fill this role, but it is only necessitated by a lack of attack through our CMs.

Of the CMs we have now, the only other solution appears to be Anderson, but as all have said, despite his impressive growth this season, he has a long way to go before being a world class attacking CM who is both linking play and scoring goals. I guess it depends if that is the role Sir Alex has in mind for him, and if he can truly become world class at it.

However, I also share others concerns that without Rio organizing the defence, there is no one left to do it. I felt that Vidic did an ordinary job running the backline on the rare occasions Rio was not there to do it. Would our backline completely lose its shape and effectiveness if Rio was bombing forwards?

My final point relates to the first. If the issue at RB is fixed, then how safe is it to utilize a system where by the third wave consists of RB / LB and Rio surging forward, with the cover of a defensive midfield like Carrick / Hargreaves?

SirManchester
22 Jan 2008, 01:16 AM
This is an excellent and exciting topic and I've waited for you to finally address it. The Reading match couldn't have come at a better time.

Now, I know you said it's difficult to say whether or not Rio could bomb up through the middle on a consistent basis but from what we've seen I think he can. We know he's a technical player and not by the number of times he's gone up but by the way he has - he's calm and composed, and runs past players not with pace but with grace, even in tight spaces. So I think he's more than capable of doing it providing he has the proper cover. When we discussed the players we wished at United, I intentionally mentioned Sammer because he was one of those players (a libero) that I always wished would play at United, because it would completely enforce and revolutionalize/modernize our attacking game. (I can only dream of having a libero with two proper overlapping fullbacks and Rooney/Tevez/Ronaldo/#9 - it would change our game dramatically because we would finally attack balance our shapes when attacking, we'd have attacking from the flanks and we would create and score through the middle)

At the moment we have the ability to make two formations, one that allows us to use Rio in the "libero" role and one that doesn't. This is a great idea for a thread and it's begging for discussion in a Manchester United context so I'll try and take a shot and apply what DS said to the team.

A


--------------------------Rooney
---------------------Tevez
-------Giggs--------------------------Ronaldo

----------------Scholes---Anderson

--^------------------------------------------------^-
--Evra------Vidic------------Ferdinand-------RB
---------------------GK

With this formation we have enough creativity deep in midfield that allows the attacking four to create and score goals through the middle. The fullbacks overlap and provide crosses or cut in from the flank. Of course this weakens our defense because it leaves the two center backs exposed and Scholes and Anderson aren't prone to staying back and covering.

B


-----------------Rooney
--------------Tevez
----Giggs----------------------Ronaldo

----------Carrick----Hargreaves

--^---------------------------------------^--
-Evra-----Vidic------Ferdinand-------RB-

----------------GK

In this formation, there is less creativity through the center. Both players like to play deeper and we don't get nearly the fluidity that we get when Scholes/Anderson pairs up or simply when we have Scholes in the lineup. However, this formation would allow for Ferdinand to charge through the middle and effectively balance our shape.

------------------Rooney
-------------Tevez
----Giggs--------------------Ronaldo
----------------^^^----------------
--------------Ferdinand--------------
-^--------------------------------------^-
-Evra-----------------------------RB-

-----------Carrick---Hargreaves------
-----------vvvvv----vvvvvvvvv------
-----------------Vidic----------------

----------------GK------------------

This is what it would look like if Ferdinand is allowed to roam up through the middle. The fullbacks would still be able to bomb up and make those overlapping runs but Hargeaves and Carrick would drop deeper to support Vidic. Carrick's instinct is to sit deeper anyway and he's become a better tackler and I have reason to believe he could get better, especially playing next to Hagreaves who will benefit from Carrick's composure but will also utilize his workrate and cover as much ground in case of counter attacks.

Also, Ferdinand making those runs up would alleviate Rooney or Giggs of any central playmaking roles and would thus reinforce our first wave of attack and possibly create more chances. Rio is a better finisher than some of us think so his goal count could also increase by at least five goals a season.

nxttc
22 Jan 2008, 02:31 AM
good reading :D

Mighty_Mouse
22 Jan 2008, 04:55 AM
You guys are excited about the possibility of your best defender, a CB, bombing up the field/making attacking runs and leaving the defense exposed to counter attacks.

An opposing team's striker's dream:

Torres: Where the hell is he going?

(30 seconds later)

Liverpool 1 - 0


Ferdinand is one of the most important players on the pitch. As a CB, his focus needs to be on keeping the defense organized and the striker(s) in check. This requires his full attention and giving him more responsibilities will likely lead to a greater chance of error, when he is running the back line, because of factors like fatigue. His role needs to be limited even though his talent exceeds those limitations. You guys are being very ambitious here.

As it stands, MU have three players up front in Ronaldo/Rooney/Tevez who are probably going to score 70+ goals between them this season. The attack is very creative as it stands. Constant additions to the attack could have the opposite of the desired effect.

liquidfireboy
22 Jan 2008, 09:23 AM
which wave does Dong fit into? :p

Vermont Red
22 Jan 2008, 11:11 AM
This is interesting as it ties into some things I've noticed over the past few seasons. One is that Ferdinand tends to come farther up the pitch when the United attack is struggling. I always wonder if he's being encouraged to do so by Fergie or if he's taking it upon himself. (The truth is that I've always thought Ferdinand was doing it because he was frustrated.) As a new fan, it would make me nuts to see Ferdinand way up the pitch. Later, it made me happy that at least someone was trying to shake things up.

The other thing that I've noticed on occasion is that some teams defend United from the front (a little) by giving their forward the assignment that Ferdinand cannot start the attack. That forward will pressure Ferdinand every time he's on the ball in order to make him pass it away. That same forward will let Vidic run up to the halfway line with the ball. It's like those opponents are worrying about what Ferdinand could become, which is what is being discussed here.

As long as Carrick and Hargreaves can be relied upon to stay back, I don't see a problem with giving Ferdinand some license. Carrick and Vidic have good positional sense and Hargreaves has the speed so it would take a special attacking team to take advantage.

J'can
22 Jan 2008, 12:41 PM
You guys are excited about the possibility of your best defender, a CB, bombing up the field/making attacking runs and leaving the defense exposed to counter attacks.

An opposing team's striker's dream:

Torres: Where the hell is he going?

(30 seconds later)

Liverpool 1 - 0


Ferdinand is one of the most important players on the pitch. As a CB, his focus needs to be on keeping the defense organized and the striker(s) in check. This requires his full attention and giving him more responsibilities will likely lead to a greater chance of error, when he is running the back line, because of factors like fatigue. His role needs to be limited even though his talent exceeds those limitations. You guys are being very ambitious here.

As it stands, MU have three players up front in Ronaldo/Rooney/Tevez who are probably going to score 70+ goals between them this season. The attack is very creative as it stands. Constant additions to the attack could have the opposite of the desired effect.

I am seeing your point oh mighty one but when the Kaiser played for germany he was the best player on the pitch yet he ventured forward. And with United seeming liking this rotating constant moving fomration where you cant figured out who the hell is playing where then this would fit in no?

More to the point, if you have a good attacking weapon use it regadrless of where on the pitch it stems from. Using your line of thinking defenders would never come up on set pieces because the threat of the counter is always there. I think if the "third wave" is done right then the opportunity for being hit on the counter is decreased.

J'can
22 Jan 2008, 12:44 PM
------------------Rooney
-------------Tevez
----Giggs--------------------Ronaldo
----------------^^^----------------
--------------Ferdinand--------------
-^--------------------------------------^-
-Evra-----------------------------RB-

-----------Carrick---Hargreaves------
-----------vvvvv----vvvvvvvvv------
-----------------Vidic----------------

----------------GK------------------

This is what it would look like if Ferdinand is allowed to roam up through the middle. The fullbacks would still be able to bomb up and make those overlapping runs but Hargeaves and Carrick would drop deeper to support Vidic. Carrick's instinct is to sit deeper anyway and he's become a better tackler and I have reason to believe he could get better, especially playing next to Hagreaves who will benefit from Carrick's composure but will also utilize his workrate and cover as much ground in case of counter attacks.


I may be confused on something now that I re-read this thread. When the libero lines up, does he take up a position as highlighted about or does he line up bside Vidic in the above formation and then has licence to roam. In toher words is the libero the same as a CB with licence to get forward (as opposed to lining up in front of the defensive wall)?