"Grands Joueurs" in Ligue 1

[midknight]

Every transfer window we hear talk/complaints of "grands joueurs" (great players) or the lack thereof at the highest level of football in France.

While it is true that football economics being what they are, a Ligue 1 club is never going to break the transfer fee record for a new signing, is it that implausible to suggest that Ligue 1 has possessed (note I didn't say produce) several "grands joueurs" in recent time?

I propose to use a time scale dating back to the 2000-2001 season, as i consider that by then all the beneficiaries of the "bon crue" bleu of 98-02 would have moved on to greener pastures, plus it basically marks the start of my knowledge of french football :D One could possibly scale it as far back as the Bosman era, but would have to tread with caution.

Of course one would have to come to some sort of decision as to what constitutes a "grand joueur". I will recommend certain guidelines, with which everyone is free to disagree with, the most important thing is that you explain your justification for such a choice.

1 - A grand joueur in Ligue 1 is neither a young player with promise that achieves nothing before his move to a big club after a rapid passage through Ligue 1 nor a washed up great past his sell by date.

2- A grand jouer should have ideally achieved something of consequence during his time in Ligue 1 on the international level or made a step UP to Ligue 1 after having made said achievement.

3- Certain exceptions may be made for globally recognised talented players who for reasons beyond their control have not made the mark on the international level, but were able to achieve notable success on arriving in a non L1 club, after having consistently shone in L1, or who stay(ed) there and continue(d) to shine.

The first name that comes to my mind is Pauleta, the second is Juninho.

Discuss.

[SuperSebGrimaldi]

To aid in this discussion, I looked at one of those oh-so-small-minded "top 50/100 players in the world" lists that are always bones of contention among the blogosphere.

Ronaldinho: I knew nothing about football before the season that you mentioned, so I can't say I know how recognized he was before arriving in Paris, though I think he did have 2 good years there (even if the team wasn't all that good).

Malouda: Though his best year was the one before he left L1, Malouda arguably had several very good years as the top left winger in France.

Fabien Barthez: He is part of the "bon cru" as you say, but is arguably the only one who achieved more at club level in L1 than abroad comparatively.

Philippe Mexès: This would likely go against your rule #1, since he was barely capped when he left L1, but Mexès did have several outstanding years at Auxerre.

Marcelo Gallardo: Don't think of the Gallardo now, but the Gallardo who was a star at Monaco who led them (along with Trez and Fab) to a title before Lyon came along.

Grégory Coupet: It is only fitting to have the model of consistency in L1 on this one.

Eric Abidal: Abidal became a star when he was at Lille before Aulas signed him.

Ludovic Giuly: Was the talisman of a Monaco side that would reach the final of the Champions League.

Jean Makoun: For the past 4 years, he has been the metronome of Lille, while becoming an international as well.

Rio Mavuba: He actually was Bordeaux's best player over a span of 3 years.

I left out Essien, Drogba, Heinze, and even Evra because I felt they became more well-known after leaving L1. One can argue the same with Ronaldinho but he was a star in Brazil's victorious World Cup campaign.

Of course I agree with Juninho's inclusion, as he is perhaps the best example out of all of these in that he became known as the top player in L1 over several years.

I expect a grand total of 0 people to agree with my choices. ;)

[SportBoy333]

To aid in this discussion, I looked at one of those oh-so-small-minded "top 50/100 players in the world" lists that are always bones of contention among the blogosphere.

Ronaldinho: I knew nothing about football before the season that you mentioned, so I can't say I know how recognized he was before arriving in Paris, though I think he did have 2 good years there (even if the team wasn't all that good).

Malouda: Though his best year was the one before he left L1, Malouda arguably had several very good years as the top left winger in France.

Fabien Barthez: He is part of the "bon cru" as you say, but is arguably the only one who achieved more at club level in L1 than abroad comparatively.

Philippe Mexès: This would likely go against your rule #1, since he was barely capped when he left L1, but Mexès did have several outstanding years at Auxerre.

Marcelo Gallardo: Don't think of the Gallardo now, but the Gallardo who was a star at Monaco who led them (along with Trez and Fab) to a title before Lyon came along.

Grégory Coupet: It is only fitting to have the model of consistency in L1 on this one.

Eric Abidal: Abidal became a star when he was at Lille before Aulas signed him.

Ludovic Giuly: Was the talisman of a Monaco side that would reach the final of the Champions League.

Jean Makoun: For the past 4 years, he has been the metronome of Lille, while becoming an international as well.

Rio Mavuba: He actually was Bordeaux's best player over a span of 3 years.

I left out Essien, Drogba, Heinze, and even Evra because I felt they became more well-known after leaving L1. One can argue the same with Ronaldinho but he was a star in Brazil's victorious World Cup campaign.

Of course I agree with Juninho's inclusion, as he is perhaps the best example out of all of these in that he became known as the top player in L1 over several years.

I expect a grand total of 0 people to agree with my choices. ;)

I like your choices but I would add Jerome Rothen to your list. If youre gonna have Giuly because of his Monaco years then you have to have Rothen with him.

I agree that Juninho and Pauleta are the first two that come to mind. They have been the 2 best players in France over a long period(3-4 years)2002-06. Juninho has been THE best player in the league ever since he got here. Not so much now because he's older but for a 4-5 year period. Pauleta would be right behind him.

[SuperSebGrimaldi]

The reason why I didn't add Rothen was I asked myself, is Rothen a player that will come to mind when thinking back to this period, or will he be an afterthought?

In another decade or two, when I have kids, will the conversation go like this?

Seb: The ASM team between 2002 and 2004 was a beautiful one, who always played with an attacking spirit. They had within their ranks the flamboyant Giuly, the roadrunner Evra, the rock Squillaci, and Rothen -
Seb's kid: Who?

[SportBoy333]

The reason why I didn't add Rothen was I asked myself, is Rothen a player that will come to mind when thinking back to this period, or will he be an afterthought?

In another decade or two, when I have kids, will the conversation go like this?

Seb: The ASM team between 2002 and 2004 was a beautiful one, who always played with an attacking spirit. They had within their ranks the flamboyant Giuly, the roadrunner Evra, the rock Squillaci, and Rothen -
Seb's kid: Who?

I think Giuly and Rothen deserved to be mentioned in the same breath when disscussing that team. Cant have one without the other. They go together like 2 peas in a pod. Rothen was so impressive that he earned a big contract from PSG. He was so crucial to the success of that team.

[SuperSebGrimaldi]

Come to think of it, you know, in that one season Rothen was quite impressive. The issue, though, is that he drifted off his game immediately after Giuly and everybody left. I mean, Evra actually kept on improving. Rothen didn't, and he's not the same player right now as he was once.

[SportBoy333]

Come to think of it, you know, in that one season Rothen was quite impressive. The issue, though, is that he drifted off his game immediately after Giuly and everybody left. I mean, Evra actually kept on improving. Rothen didn't, and he's not the same player right now as he was once.


Evra was younger so there was more room for improvement. I think Rothen was like 25-26 when he left so he had already reached his peak thus not much room for improvement. I'm not making excuses for him as to why he hasnt done nearly as well at PSG however the players around him havent exactly been stellar. He is a player who needs the support around him to fully flourish.

[NicolasN.]

Evra was younger so there was more room for improvement. I think Rothen was like 25-26 when he left so he had already reached his peak thus not much room for improvement. I'm not making excuses for him as to why he hasnt done nearly as well at PSG however the players around him havent exactly been stellar. He is a player who needs the support around him to fully flourish.

Honestly, now he is doing really well with PSG. Since Le Guen coach the team he is once again in the starting eleven and he shows that he is a very talented player. There is plenty of reasons to explain with he had some troubles during his first 2 years with PSG especially injuries. But, Lacombe took him out of the team after one game only after the beginning of the past season and everyone thought he was good during that game against Lorient except Lacombe...I assume Lacombe didn't like stars except Pauleta.

I like Rothen. He is a good player. Almost all PSG scoring chances come from him. I don't think there is many players who can cross like him. He is impressive and last but not least he is a warrior. He fights to success no matter what.

If I keep focus on PSG, maybe I would add :

Jay-Jay Okocha!!!, Laurent Robert, Anelka, Arteta, Jérome Leroy, Sorin, Pochettino (his end of carreer with Bordeaux was poor though).

[midknight]

Thks guys. I love where this is going. Everyone seems to have understood where I was coming from. Often the most imprtant post in a thread is not the first but the second. Thanks super seb.

As far as your list goes:
Ronaldinho: Agree

Malouda: Agree.

Fabien Barthez: Was the third name on my list.

Philippe Mexès: Disagree.(don't even think he's a "grand joueur" in Italy yet)

Marcelo Gallardo: Don't know (before my time)

Grégory Coupet: Disagree but uniquely because of the existence of the Bald One. If Lyon makes a great CL run or Les bleus a great euro run I will agree

Eric Abidal: Have to check that.

Ludovic Giuly: Disagree. Think he was essential to Monaco's run but his international career seems wanting to be considered a "grand joueur" Even after moving to Barca he seems to have never been more than a super sub (I stand corrected if I'm wrong)

Jean Makoun: Disagree. If Cameroon had qualified in 06 I might agree. Let's see what the Can brings. A better option might be Marc Vivien Foe?

Rio Mavuba: Disagree. (has never been impressed by him and his resume still leaves to be desired)

Jerome Rothen imo did not realise his potential to become a "grand joueur". His return to Les Bleus is probably his last chance.

Jerome Leroy is the kind of guy I rate as a very good player, but he will never fall into the category of a "great player". Pretty much the same for Sorin and Robert but they may all be before my time.

When did Arteta and Okocha play in L1? How long did Anelka stay in L1 before leaving for Real, and what did he do?

If we're talking ASM04 I'd also suggest Morientes, but I don't know if he stayed long enough to be considered. Adebayor left way too young, Kallon fell off badly. I agree that Evra left too early as well.

[SuperSebGrimaldi]

Yeah, I'll admit I'm a bit biased when it comes to Mexès and some of the ASM guys. Although to answer your question about as the ASM 03-04 team, Morientes came on loan for one season, actually even less than that, hence I doubt he would qualify on this list. Impartially, though, I have to admit that team was made less of <<grands joueurs>> but more of an awesome, attacking team spirit with a big chip on their shoulder. The motivation was since they were almost relegated the season before, not due to a bad league position, but due to their finances being in complete turmoil.

In any event, the one player I think we could add arguably is Franck Ribéry, though he only spent about 2+ seasons in L1, and before that he had been in National (Third Division).

I have to say I very much agree with your opinions on the ones that weren't included, as I actually tried to do mine in order from best to worst, but I think it comes to show that L1 is more of a developing league than a developed one, as in, players get bought at such an early stage of their career that it'd be difficult to consider they were even in L1 (think of some in the EPL at the moment, A. Traoré, Taarabt, Clichy haven't even had a second of action in the hexagon). Consequently, there isn't a very high total of <<grands joueurs.>> Like actually, if we go by our agreed list, there is a grand total of 2 who are active in the league right now, being Juninho and Pauleta. Of course, everyone expects, if they stay long enough, Nasri, Toulalan, Benzema, Ménez, Ben Arfa, etc. to join the list, though we'll see, obviously.

Oh wait, can we include Jérémy Toulalan on the list? He does have room to develop even now, but he has been establishing himself for more than a couple of seasons.

[NicolasN.]

Thks guys. I love where this is going. Everyone seems to have understood where I was coming from. Often the most imprtant post in a thread is not the first but the second. Thanks super seb.

As far as your list goes:
Ronaldinho: Agree

Malouda: Agree.

Fabien Barthez: Was the third name on my list.

Philippe Mexès: Disagree.(don't even think he's a "grand joueur" in Italy yet)

Marcelo Gallardo: Don't know (before my time)

Grégory Coupet: Disagree but uniquely because of the existence of the Bald One. If Lyon makes a great CL run or Les bleus a great euro run I will agree

Eric Abidal: Have to check that.

Ludovic Giuly: Disagree. Think he was essential to Monaco's run but his international career seems wanting to be considered a "grand joueur" Even after moving to Barca he seems to have never been more than a super sub (I stand corrected if I'm wrong)

Jean Makoun: Disagree. If Cameroon had qualified in 06 I might agree. Let's see what the Can brings. A better option might be Marc Vivien Foe?

Rio Mavuba: Disagree. (has never been impressed by him and his resume still leaves to be desired)

Jerome Rothen imo did not realise his potential to become a "grand joueur". His return to Les Bleus is probably his last chance.

Jerome Leroy is the kind of guy I rate as a very good player, but he will never fall into the category of a "great player". Pretty much the same for Sorin and Robert but they may all be before my time.

When did Arteta and Okocha play in L1? How long did Anelka stay in L1 before leaving for Real, and what did he do?

If we're talking ASM04 I'd also suggest Morientes, but I don't know if he stayed long enough to be considered. Adebayor left way too young, Kallon fell off badly. I agree that Evra left too early as well.

- Arteta played for PSG on a loan from winter 2000/2001 till the end of the season 2001/2002 (2 loans).

He was playing for Bacelona B when Luis Fernandez signed him on a loan. Luis known him because he coached Athletic Bilbao in the past and Arteta was in its academy.

He performed really well with PSG and every single supporter remember him. PSG wanted to buy him but Barcelona wanted about 18 million Euros. (He was playing with Barcelona B......18 million Euros is kinda overpriced). Therefore Glasgow Rangers bought him because they payed more than PSG could even though Arteta wanted to stay with PSG but it seems like his father was most concerned about money than his son.

- Jay-Jay was a big star in Ligue 1 and a symbol for Nigeria. He spent 4 years with PSG and he said he wanted to sign a contract to play for PSG until his end of career. In fact he left PSG for free...