Refereeing Disgracefullness

[cobi13]

How terrible was Mark Halsey in Ipswich vs. Portsmouth. I am completely neutral with respect to the two teams and I even felt terrible for Ipswich. Seemed like they could have won even with 10 men. David James had to make some big saves. Is there a way to fix things with red card screw-ups?

http://www.soccer-training-info.com/viable_replay_system.asp

[goodsir]

http://www.futbolcuyuz.com/video/football-videos/european-football/english-cups/ipswich-t.-0-1-portsmouth-fa-cup-highlights-05.01.2008_en.html

[campton]

Man oh man.... That was a bad call, but i have to defend him here. from the angle that i saw it the first 5 times, i thought "dangerous, spike up, in the shin, send him off for SFP". Then, at the opposite angle i said "play on".

Again an instance where CR AR communication would have benefited the match.

[ArgylleRef]

What happened to the discussion of a couple of weeks ago about whether a "rash challenge" that, through the effort of the fouled player didn't connect still needing to be sanctioned?

The LOTG don't mention whether he connected or not. Did he commit a foul in a manner that was careless, reckless or using excessive force?

At the Pro Clinic last year, the instuctor played some clips and asked opinions for the spectrum of no call, foul, caution or dismissal. He held up four fingers to represent those possibilities and then stressed that judgement plays a huge part in how we call it. He then said that he didn't want us all to call it the same, but that we should be close to the same call. If most were split between no call and foul he was happy, but if someone was looking for a red, then that was an outlier.

In this case, if we armchair experts, with a different angle of view (thanks Bob Evans!), can even contemplate a caution then I would have no pro blem with another ref seeing it red. We stress ref team communication for just these instances. If that first angle looked (Campton) dangerous and the AR or FO said there was no contact, then is the dangerous element removed? I think this is the clip we were looking for in the previous discussion!

[DerbyRam54]

Man oh man.... That was a bad call, but i have to defend him here. from the angle that i saw it the first 5 times, i thought "dangerous, spike up, in the shin, send him off for SFP". Then, at the opposite angle i said "play on".

Again an instance where CR AR communication would have benefited the match.

There was some talk in match reporting that one of Portsmouth's coaches (Joe Jordan I believe) put a lot of pressure on the 4th official to have Trotter sent off.
I was very surprised when the referee pulled out a red card, when I saw the foul I thought it was either a chewing out or a yellow, based on the referee's actions in an earlier hard charge in the back. I don't think anybody was expecting a sending off and I think that the referee made his task a bit harder with that card.

[Englishref]

It's pretty clear from the TV pictures and from what Trotter had to say, that Halsey wasn't going to send him off at first. There was no charge in, no quick red card. In fact, he actually goes to his right pocket where the YC is, and then appears to be told something on the headset. After a brief chat via it, he then says to Trotter, "sorry lad, I have to send you off", and shows the red card.

So the whole incident is bizarre. Firstly, it was never a red card, though with the recent spate of dangerous tackles in England, and the crackdown that's on here, referees are under great pressure to punish them with red cards and a very harsh one was overdue. Secondly, Halsey had a great position to see the challenge, far better than either AR, so why he let himself be talked into a red I've no idea.

[campton]

I Secondly, Halsey had a great position to see the challenge, far better than either AR, so why he let himself be talked into a red I've no idea.


How couldn't he be talked into it? If i was thinking yellow and i then had an experienced AR and 4th saying "send him off" i would take it into account. If this referee takes all the heat for this it would be a shame. The only person who shouldnt have any explaining to do is AR2.

[Englishref]

How couldn't he be talked into it? If i was thinking yellow and i then had an experienced AR and 4th saying "send him off" i would take it into account. If this referee takes all the heat for this it would be a shame. The only person who shouldnt have any explaining to do is AR2.

I'm not saying he shouldn't take the advice on board, but Halsey is a vastly experienced, former FIFA referee, who was perfectly positioned to see it, and was going to correctly deal with it, until it appears an AR got involved and persuaded him to take the wrong course of action. If he hadn't had the better angle, then I'd be looking for advice from the AR, but I don't really see why either he needed to take any advice, or why the AR got involved.

[campton]

I'm not saying he shouldn't take the advice on board, but Halsey is a vastly experienced, former FIFA referee, who was perfectly positioned to see it, and was going to correctly deal with it, until it appears an AR got involved and persuaded him to take the wrong course of action. If he hadn't had the better angle, then I'd be looking for advice from the AR, but I don't really see why either he needed to take any advice, or why the AR got involved.


I would argue his "perfect positioning" was not perfect. From his view (the view first shown) it shows a hard, hard, reckless challenge IMO. It may just be me though. I am unaware of his previous matches, but it just seemed like his crew members are the reason for this blunder.

[Rufusabc]

I thought it was a horrible call. And if the shoe was on the other foot, there was NO WAY the Premiership team was going to suffer a red card. Ruined the game. He has to be told to send him off.

R

[macheath]

Not a red, but certainly a foul and a good case for a yellow. The defender makes contact with the attacker's foot, studs are up. Don't know about all of this supposed extra communication.

More instructive for me was watching the Stuttgart-Bayern match yesterday. Ref called it very tightly, kept things under control, and things that would have been let go in an English match were called as fouls, very tightly in the first half. I don't watch a lot of Bundesliga, so I don't know if this is the norm, but it reinforced my view that English football (and fans and commentators) allow and expect a higher level of physical play than other top leagues.

[DerbyRam54]

FWIW, here are post-match interview quotes from the two managers (edited for brevity from the report in the Observer):

"Magilton [Ipswich], who claimed that Portsmouth coach Joe Jordan had influenced the fourth official in favour of red when Halsey was favouring yellow, said: 'It was a very dubious sending off. We can thank Joe for that,' Magilton added. 'Liam was a little bit late and such an experienced referee should have dealt with it with a yellow card.
Redknapp [Portsmouth] said: 'I was surprised when the red came out. It looked a bit harsh. The challenge was a little late and probably worth a yellow.'"
The Observer's match reporter noted that from the press box the sending off looked to be a good decision.
There was a similar, though not identical, sending off in the Burnley v Arsenal match at Turf Moor. From the clip I saw though it looked like Kyle Lafferty went well over the ball, higher than Trotter's challenge, and while he didn't seem to make hard contact with the Arsenal player I think it was a lot easier to see why referee Wiley would reach for a red card rather than a yellow.

[bluedevils]

I think a legitimate case for red card can be made on that challenge.

[MassachusettsRef]

There was a similar, though not identical, sending off in the Burnley v Arsenal match at Turf Moor. From the clip I saw though it looked like Kyle Lafferty went well over the ball, higher than Trotter's challenge, and while he didn't seem to make hard contact with the Arsenal player I think it was a lot easier to see why referee Wiley would reach for a red card rather than a yellow.Other than being foul tackles, I don't think they were that similar at all.

Lafferty's tackle was as you described it--over the ball. It was an exposed boot which his the shin of his opponent by going over the ball, which means his leg was elevated. It may have been an accident that resulted from a rash decision after Laffery lost the ball, but it was inherently dangerous to the opponent and was rightly sanctioned as SFP. The tackle is available here (start at 3:53): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyd2d5VBPnw

As for the Ipswich tackle, it did look bad at first glance, but that angle is from a distance. The actual tackle was--yes--late, but the Ipswich player is also clearly committed to going to the ball prior to it is played away and he makes an effort to keep his boot down and not expose his studs into the player. In no way, in my opinion, did it endanger the Portsmouth player. Yellow perhaps, purely for being late (and because it looked worse in real-time); but really, I'd have a hard time classifying it as reckless after watching it the second time. I think Halsey was right to show restraint at first and it's unfortunate that one of his crew members convinced him to change his mind--assuming that is what happened.

[DerbyRam54]

They were similar in the sense that the managers and the players involved were genuinely surprised that a red card was shown, and perhaps would not have been shown until somewhat recently.
I agree that Lafferty's challenge was more clearly deserving of a red, but might not have been a sending off in seasons past. It might not have been a sending off in the second division either where play can traditionally be a bit more robust than in the first division.

[Englishref]

I don't watch a lot of Bundesliga, so I don't know if this is the norm, but it reinforced my view that English football (and fans and commentators) allow and expect a higher level of physical play than other top leagues.

I don't watch the Bundesliga either as we don't really get it here, but my experience of watching German refs handle European club and international matches is indeed that they allow very little physical contact. Markus Merk was always known for making games very stop-start, and Fandel and Stark appear to be following in his footsteps. It's not just the Germans though, French and Italian referees have always been particularly fussy (though Rosetti is thankfully one to break the mould), while English, Spanish and Portugese referees tend to allow a lot more of the physical side of the game in their games.