Intelligent, Calm Discussion on Tactics, Technique and Overall Team Play [Heavy Moderation]

[bayern is god]

We can easily make a number of excuses for our situation or we can jump on the bandwagon and demand Rafa to be sacked, however, if we all take a step back and try to put things into context then hopefully we will realise the true situation.

We could claim that its LUCK. We had BAD LUCK with Rooney's mis-hit shot falling at Tevez's feet, (if he hit it properly it would have hit the defender closing him down). BUT we have had GOOD LUCK, with Gerrard's last-minute goal at Derby being an example. So please don't use luck to explain our situation.

We could claim that its REFEREEING DECISIONS. We had a shocker at home against Chelsea which cost us 2 points, but we also had a favourable decision(s) in the derby, so please don't use poor refereeing decisions to explain our situation.

We could claim its RAFA'S ROTATION. Yes his lineup against Reading still annoys me, but he gets it right almost all the time (not even Fergie or Arsene get it right all the time), plus I think I'm right in saying that in each of Rafa's seasons we have got the most points in the league from 1st Jan until the end of the season - its just that we are too far behind at Christmas!

For me the reason is CREATIVITY. The 3 games that stand out to me are Birmingham & Wigan at home, and Man City away. In each of these games we had at least 60% possession and over 10 shots on target, yet we only scored 1 goal in 270 minutes of football?!

If we had ONE of Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldinho, Messi, Robinho etc. then IMHO I believe that we would have won each of those games, meaning that we would be 6 points behind Arsenal with a game in hand (IF is a big word I know, but its my opinion!).

Hopefully when people have calmed down after the last 2 results, we will all realise that it is a setback, and yes we might not win the league this year, but WE ARE IMPROVING.

Yes we still have some players who don't quite make the grade (IMHO) like Kuyt & Voronin, but Rafa inherited an average squad in comparison to the squads that Fergie and Arsene had at the start of the 04/05 season, plus he hasn't had the funds that Chelseas have spent since Jose joined them. Therefore, whilst we are improving, so are the rest

YNWA

[Boundzy]

Obviously, one wants to win the League every year. However, I think most of us did not predict LFC to win the League this year. At the beginning of the season, our realistic goal was to close the gap between LFC and the league leader and to be battling for the #1 or #2 spot in the League table, rather than the #3 or #4 spot.

Few, if any, expected Torres to settle into the EPL as quickly and effectively as he has. In part, I think this has led to us raising our expectations – not that raised expectations are bad, but one should be realistic.

Despite some inexplicably poor results at Anfield, LFC are in a better position this year than at the same point 1 year ago. After 20 matches last year, LFC had amassed 34 points and were 16 points behind the league leader. LFC were in 6th place, behind ManU, Chelsea, Bolton, Arsenal, and Portsmouth. If you put the league leader at 21 matches, as they are in the current table, LFC were 19 points off the pace.

Currently, we are 4-points better than after the same number of matches last year (38pts versus 34pts), and more importantly, LFC are 7 points closer to the league leader (53pts-34pts versus 50pts-38pts). I am not suggesting that LFC’s current league position and results are good enough, but rather that the current results are an improvement from last year. I expect continued improvement over the season, especially in home results.

Certainly, no LFC supporter will be happy with home draws to bottom-of-the-table strugglers, and it is possible that LFC will finish the 07/08 EPL season in worse position than 06/07 . . . but we’re not at that point. I remain confident that LFC will finish significantly closer to the league leaders than they were last year.

YNWA

[usscouse]

One of the comms said (In fun) "Carra does like a good whinge!" and he does, it's part of his way of expressing himself.

Seems like a lot of fans here have the same disease, including me, I like to have a moan when I feel it's warranted.

But there are a few who post here who make a habit of it, from picking on a of a couple of players who may (or may not) have underachieved that day. Or calling the manager incompetent because they don't like his rotation system.

So let's start with the manager. Other than he didn't sub when we wanted him to..(He has to learn to listen to us or read this board) he did mostly all the right things. The team controlled things according to an obvious plan to break down a team that were playing to a more obvious plan of just "Parking the bus in front of goal" 11 men behind the ball, 11 defenders just double teaming every one who came into their half. But Rafa still worked out plans for players to get shots on goal. There were some pretty moves that got players behind the defence, maybe briefly but nobody put it away. When Torres scored off one of those move (probably engineered by Rafa, I thought we were going to get more.

We didn't, so just like in the past 8 seasons or so, the oppo realized we were pretty toothless so decided to come out and bother our defence and at a time we should have been putting the final nails in their coffin.

What happened was they got a goal from a guy who make a wild kick at a soft clearance and...boom...we're drawing again so the bus rolls back in place.

It looked to me in the first half that, Rafa had a plan, a good one and it was only a matter of time. But nobody on the pitch closed it out. Yossi came on, perhaps he should have come on sooner but he just disappeared anyway. I refuse to blame the manager for the players not scoring when his plans put them on the ball in the right place. and we either missed it or hit the keeper.

How a multi million pound player can "continually" put the ball over the bar, when I berate and embarrass my 16 year olds for the same thing is beyond me.

One more thing.........Aurelio should Never Ever be allowed to take another free kick and should be banned from shooting on goal. stop!

[drobny23]

As always, here are my Obviously Correct Observations, which are posted without reading any of yours!

Arsenal break down crappy sides like Wigan more than once. ManU break down crappy sides like Wigan more than once. So do Chelsea. So do many teams in the Prem!

It's not as if we aren't capable of hanging 2, 3 or 4 goals on Wigan. It's that we just haven't been doing it. In isolation, this awful result is explainable, attributable to bad luck, a correctible dip in form, or just part of the Premieracoaster. But this is not the first time we have seen this. These results keep popping up!

What's happening is we are seeing that after this result we are not in the title conversation, and I must say it's disappointing to be saying this on 3 Jan. What we are is a favorite to keep our spot in the CL. That's our competition as of now. Unless something changes (hint: transfer window), that's all this team will be. It's just not good enough. There is no reason we should be drawing at home to Wigan while fading from the title race.

We are hemorrhaging from the back because of injury. Arbs will be fine if he's stuck at CB for a few months, but that's time we don't have. We have to get Agger and Sami back. Yesterday.

One "solution" is to argue for more talent on the wings, or another stud striker. But I don't think that does it. We are a very, very talented team, but we lack that spark, that moment of genius from an unsuspecting source (like Eduardo for Arse), SOMETHING. I don't think an import is going to change the chemistery. It might. Probably worth a try.

Part of me wants to blame Rafa for this. The team is changed so much so often that it isn't long enough in the beaker for the chemical reaction to take place. But I think that's unfair to him. I might just come down to the fact this group of guys, talented as they are, just can't seem to get it together, no matter how long they play together. Who knows? Well, Rafa knows, and if he could put his finger on the hole in the dam, he'da done so already.

As for the match itself, it lulled me to sleep for the first 45', then the wave of relief swept over me when Torres scored, and then -- back to sleep -- only to be jolted by that laser Wigan strike. I was pleased to see Rafa come unglued in the last 10', because that tells me he sees something on the pitch that doesn't conform to what he requires, and that belies execution. I think Rafa's sick of getting his side squeezed by Jay Leno.

What a mess.

I am still holding out hope. We are not eliminated; rather, we are demoted to the unenviable task of having to go on a tear we are capable yet unlikely to go on, and to need help above us to win the Prem.

Anyone else shuddering at the thought of Inter? Scary.

[ForeverRed]

I think part of the "problem" is also that our style of play has changed. We have been a more offensive side this season, largely because of Torres, and don't have the same issue of lack of finishing that we did in past seasons. On that note, we are conceding more it seems and our home record isn't exactly something to gloat about. Also, I don't see Reina equalling as many clean sheets as he did last year. We've been a bit unlucky having Agger injured that long and now having to play Arbs as a CB. Our defensive woes should be fixed though once Agger is back and Rafa finally gets a quality LB.

As far as our offense is concerned, I see the main issue being an overreliance on Gerrard and Torres due to our other players being either terribly out of form or just simply inconsistent. That causes a lot of instability in the team and can result in either great performances (Pompey, Marseille away etc.) or poor performances (Wigan, Birmingham etc.) Can we really blame Rafa for that? Not really because he can only do so much with the squad he has when there are so many injuries and players struggling to regain their form.

[Twenty26Six]

I figured we need a good "current state of affairs" thread, right now. As a group, as a board, we need some good cathartic discussion.

The season has been up and down. Right now, we're a bit down. But, that doesn't mean we can't intelligently discuss what we think are "serious issues" with our team.

Try to keep your posts as small as possible - one or two points. And, for the love of sunshine, bring some specific events and examples to the debate. Otherwise, I'll lock the thread and/or delete posts.

Alright, now have at it. :)

[Twenty26Six]

One of the bright spots this year, has been the play of Mascherano. He's really becoming a more complete player than last year. He's left that typical "South American" type mold as a "holding" player and become much more effective box-to-box.

I'm still a bit pissed we haven't really fixed this winger problem. I like Pennant and Kewell. But they are #2 and #3 kind of guys. We need one true "firestarter", so to speak.

[Twenty26Six]

More food for thought:

The last 4 league winners: Arsenal '04 [Invincibles], Chelsea '05 and '06, and Mancs '07 were teams that had highly-tuned transitions from defence to attack. They could catch teams on the break.

When I look at our team in play. I just do not see that same speedy transition.

For me it is a three part problem:
Technique of certain players is limited. [Kuyt, Riise]
Physical Speed of certain players is limited. [Kewell, Finnan]
Soccer Intelligence and Decision-Making of certain players is limited. [Gerrard, Pennant]

[Jimmyb79]

I still think Rafa is the man, a master tactician who needs a motivator alongside him.

If they dont get a Pako style Assis Manager who inspires faith and Anthony Robbins style winning mentality into whatever players are playing that day, maybe Gerrard etc have to pull the players aside and do it themselves. Just having Carra barking at players on the pitch isn't going to motivate a thirsty person to go get a drink.

The players, even when winning sometimes, look frustrated. Cohesion seems lost. Call it rotation or whatever you like, but cohesion and knowing where someone will be and how quick they get there is just lacking.

[never walk alone TPK]

Well as mentioned earlier *Lack of Creativity*.
Earlier we passed the ball too much mostly in the final third and tried to thread some impossible through balls.That pissed me off and I shouted "Have a go at it someone!!!"
Now I constantly see we have possesion we simply pass it to the defenders who pass it around amongst themselves main suspect being Carragher.Nothing against this scheme but maybe our offensive players are not moving off the ball.
I dont like comparing our team to others but Arsenal have alot of players making off the ball movement and that kind of frees up other players who eventually recieve the ball and on and on...
The thing is we need a player to do the dirty stuff as well you know pull and push wipe out players with the intention of wiping em out.Mascherano feels this gap perfectly but someone at the front doing dirty stuff can help as it will prevent alot of counter-attacks and let our defense organise itself before an attack comes.
Another thing the team needs is someone to take the chances and bury them once and for all seriously we get the chances but we have to take them.

[Twenty26Six]

Nothing against this scheme but maybe our offensive players are not moving off the ball.

I do, constantly, seem to think the same thing.

I dont like comparing our team to others but Arsenal have alot of players making off the ball movement and that kind of frees up other players who eventually receive the ball and on and on.

Wenger says that he recruits players based on "speed and technique". Then, he looks at the character of a player. Arse really show that in every position, for the most part, they have speed and technique. We seem to lack a lot in both of those categories [some players more than others].

[ChanceTheDog]

For me the main problem is creativity. This may be down to the players not being up to scratch, but sometimes I think it's down to Rafa being to ridged with the teams he puts on the pitch.

One player that springs to mind on this is Yossi as Usscouse has said MANY times ;) he's usualy only any good when he comes on for the last 20 minutes. Granted some player are just like that, but maybe it's a case of because he's coming on as a sub he doesn't have the same constraints put on him as if he had started the game. Another player that springs to mind on this is Babel who seems to be playing the same 20 minute game, but who has also shown he has talent (atleast IMO) and could become a great player if Rafa takes the reigns of a little and shows a bit of faith.

[ForeverRed]

I see us kinda stuck between an old fashioned english physical and defensively disciplined sturdiness and an attempt to play a modern continental style characterized by technical and quick combination play. In this context, it is difficult to find a right balance, especially when you have players that lack the ability to play technical football and strikers that aren't very mobile.

If the right 3-4 players are brought in in key positions (LB, Winger, supporting striker) we can effectively and completely switch to an attacking style of play where we wouldn't have to rely simply on two players. In other words, we have to get the whole team on the same page. Sometimes it appears to me that players have different ideas on the field when Xabi makes a pass and Pennant can't read it for example.

[ChanceTheDog]

More food for thought:

The last 4 league winners: Arsenal '04 [Invincibles], Chelsea '05 and '06, and Mancs '07 were teams that had highly-tuned transitions from defence to attack. They could catch teams on the break.

When I look at our team in play. I just do not see that same speedy transition.

For me it is a three part problem:
Technique of certain players is limited. [Kuyt, Riise]
Physical Speed of certain players is limited. [Kewell, Finnan]
Soccer Intelligence and Decision-Making of certain players is limited. [Gerrard, Pennant]

I see your point, but most players have their stong points as well as their weak point. I think it's more about building the team around the players strong points, and not exposing their weekness just so they fit into a system. Though we do have some players right now that aren't up to scratch full stop.

[Twenty26Six]

I see your point, but most players have their stong points as well as their weak point. I think it's more about building the team around the players strong points, and not exposing their weekness just so they fit into a system. Though we do have some players right now that aren't up to scratch full stop.

Well, it's not really coincidence that those three teams play a transitional style. As I've said before, Wenger recruits speed and technique. It matters very little what position or niche that player fills. If he is fast and has good technique, Wenger will find him a spot on the field [ex: Rosicky, Hleb, Eboue, and Toure ALL came to the club as different positional players than they are now. Players in the past that also did this were: Henry, Lauren, Wiltord, Ljungberg.

Mourinho, when he came to Chelsea [as he had with Porto], made them a counterattacking team based on speed. I've read more than one interview of his where he states that 'the biggest trend in the game is "transitional play" [i.e. - the ability to swiftly change from defense to attack and catch teams on the break].

Manchester United, under Quieroz, have made a concerted effort to use Scholes, Giggs, and Ronaldo to move the ball through midfield very quickly. Rooney, Tevez, Nani are all suited for this style.

While it is best to fit the system to the players, teams DEFINITELY recruit for a specific style of play. Our style of play does not suit well to the counterattack. And, sometimes, it even looks like we don't have a preferred style of play. We don't seem to have one thing we are great at. "Jacks of all trades, masters of none."

To win in England you need to transition quickly - and we don't. To win in Europe, you need to be an organized unit - which we can do well.

[ChanceTheDog]

I think you summed it up there with "Jacks of all trades, masters of none". Unfortuntly I think your right.

[CCSC_STRIKER20]

List of things that tactically bug me, this involves manager, players, and not being able to buy the right players all the time (owners give us more money). Oh where to start, where to start...

1. Playing one striker at home in the Premier League against any team (Big Four or not).

2. Playing players out of favored positions and then expecting them to play as well as they would play in their favored position. See Babel.

3. Pairing players together in all parts of the field that obviously don't work well together. See Crouch-Torres, Momo-Masch, Gerrard-Momo.

4. Not being able to figure out an effective way to play our best players all at the same time. See Masch-Gerrard-Alonso.

5. Not having Premiership winning quality wingers.

6. Playing different styles/formations well, but none of the styles/formations great. We lack a true style or perma-formation, we aren't like Arsenal, Man U, or Chelsea, though they may rotate they don't deviate often from their tactics. This blame rests on Rafa, the players, and the owners for not getting us the proper players to play a consistent style and formation.

7. Not being urgent in style of play or substitutions when needed. See any game where we are losing/level, but don't push hard for the equalizer/winner until it is too late.

8. Our poor play from set pieces, offensively and defensively. I am pretty sure I have seen teams like Wigan score more times from set pieces than we have. And we also concede a number of goals on set pieces or the happenings right after a set piece. This shouldn't happen.

9. Not having our best players that complement each other in a great way up top or on the wings. See Torres and any of our strikers or our wingers and our outside backs.

10. Piss poor crossing from almost all of our outside players.

11. Possessing and getting shite for it. At least this year when we have one chance, Torres is able to pounce on it and put it away most of the time. This wasn't this case last year.

12. Outside of Torres and Gerrard, no one is scoring at even a one in every 4-5 matches rate.

Twelve Reasons, and I am sure there are more that why we won't win the Prem this year. Not to be pessimistic, just pointing out our flaws, these flaws can be fixed. Okay, I am prepared to be attacked and ripped down by all-comers. Sorry it was a long post, but this will be my last and only long one of the whole thread, I will just resort to answering other supporters and posters.

[Jimmyb79]

8. Our poor play from set pieces, offensively and defensively. I am pretty sure I have seen teams like Wigan score more times from set pieces than we have. And we also concede a number of goals on set pieces or the happenings right after a set piece. This shouldn't happen.



Thats been my one gripe all year (and last year).

What do they practice at practice? Or does it come down to not knowing where to stand as they played a different position role last week?

This is the one thing the frustrates me a little, just seem slow and plodding for a 'big 4' team o set pieces. The only thing we can seem to do at set plays is shoot direct at goal. Not being knee-jerk as its been consistent over 2 years.

Have all the world class players you want, if you cant figure out the under 10's basic soccer things, you will still be headless chickens.

I have faith in the team still and always will.

[Twenty26Six]

List of things that tactically bug me

I'm going to rip you on this. Because, this is a lazy post and mostly off-topic.

1. Playing one striker at home in the Premier League against any team (Big Four or not).
He did this to accommodate our best 11 players. See 4.

2. Playing players out of favored positions and then expecting them to play as well as they would play in their favored position. See Babel.
He doesn't expect Babel to play like a dutch LW, when he plays LM or RM.

3. Pairing players together in all parts of the field that obviously don't work well together. See Crouch-Torres, Momo-Masch, Gerrard-Momo. He hasn't paired those three together very often. Alonso was hurt, as well.

4. Not being able to figure out an effective way to play our best players all at the same time. See Masch-Gerrard-Alonso.
See #1. Make up your mind.

5. Not having Premiership winning quality wingers.
What is a premiership quality winger? Because Joe Cole and Cristiano Ronaldo aren't really wingers. Arsenal has no wingers.

6. Playing different styles/formations well, but none of the styles/formations great. We lack a true style or perma-formation, we aren't like Arsenal, Man U, or Chelsea, though they may rotate they don't deviate often from their tactics. This blame rests on Rafa, the players, and the owners for not getting us the proper players to play a consistent style and formation. One good point.

7. Not being urgent in style of play or substitutions when needed. See any game where we are losing/level, but don't push hard for the equalizer/winner until it is too late. We had our best 11 on the field last game. If he had brought on Crouch earlier, he would have paired Crouch with Torres. Or, had Babel been dressed, he would have been a LM. Both of these things you just argued against.

8. Our poor play from set pieces, offensively and defensively. I am pretty sure I have seen teams like Wigan score more times from set pieces than we have. And we also concede a number of goals on set pieces or the happenings right after a set piece. This shouldn't happen. I can't remember conceding from many set-pieces this year. Maybe, it is just me.

9. Not having our best players that complement each other in a great way up top or on the wings. See Torres and any of our strikers or our wingers and our outside backs. We just got Torres. This a is a "settling in" issue.

10. Piss poor crossing from almost all of our outside players. Finnan? Kewell? Aurelio?

11. Possessing and getting shite for it. At least this year when we have one chance, Torres is able to pounce on it and put it away most of the time. This wasn't this case last year. This is better, no? Why does it annoy you?

12. Outside of Torres and Gerrard, no one is scoring at even a one in every 4-5 matches rate.
What is "tactical" about this point?


Notice the thread title. This isn't your "incoherent rant and mumble" thread. I expect more out of you as a poster. Dumbledore could have posted this crap.

[dutchbrowncoat]

a bit long on my first point, forgive me mods.

set pieces -
a few problems here.
first, i do not think stevie g should be taking corners. i dont rate his delivery as significantly better than our other options, and he is a threat in scoring with his head as well as striking a loose ball from distance.
second, a little more creativity would be nice. i am reminded of agger's goal against chelsea in the champions league last year. everyone in the room thought gerrard might go near post or maybe try to cross for a back post runner. nope, they did a little trick play, and agger slotted it for what could be argued as our biggest goal in european play last year. i think we need more creativity and well rehearsed set pieces. i have often wondered how significant pako's role was in setting up set pieces.
third, we need legitimate threats from both sides of the ball for free kicks straight on goal. of course stevie g and alonso are threats, but with riise's drop in form we could use a decent threat with the left foot as well. whether this means giving riise more time or aurelio taking some cracks at it, i think that needs to be developed. if neither riise or aurelio will do, then the emphasis for clever set pieces arises again.

formation / tactics
as someone else stated, i think that we need a kind of standard formation and set of tactics for league play. for other big four clubs and european competition, i think that the heavy adjustments to accomodate the team we are playing is perfectly ok. however, when playing premiership clubs, especially smaller sides, we should be able to run our program and stick it to them.