Winter Transfer window

[Klask]

Allofs contract has not been extended yet.

A guy at school came up with the following theory:
Allofs lets all our good players go to Bayern and will leave Bremen in the end, to join which club...? :-)

For sure. Allofs is a smart man and he might just do that :p

I'm having a difficult time seeing a better replacement for Uli than Allofs. He has all the skills required to manage Bayern.

Next Bayern signing: Vander. LOL :D

[willy_svw]

Höneß is NEVER a manager as good as Allofs.

[SpaceballJack]

Bremen loaned Carlos Alberto to Sao Paulo FC for six months.

Link is in portuguese, just putting it here to confirm it:
http://globoesporte.globo.com/ESP/Noticia/Futebol/Sao_Paulo/0,,MUL260231-4286,00.html

[Borussia]

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/startseite/artikel/374088/

The first time that Allofs' transfer policy failed in Bremen (Alberto is the most expensive player in the Werder history).

[willy_svw]

I am quite upset that he is being sacked so quickly, but I suppose the management knew things about him that we didn´t.

[Moshuluu121]

Didn't he get those injuries playing for Werder Bremen and Germany?

God. Some of you are amazing in how quickly you can turn on someone when they leave your little circle! :rolleyes:

I would be less upset if he was leaving for Atletico Madrid. I mean, there's leaving our circle, and then there's leaving our circle for Bayern...:mad:

[footyfan1]

I am quite upset that he is being sacked so quickly, but I suppose the management knew things about him that we didn´t.

He hasn't been "sacked." It's a loan. Let the guy get his head clear. Then, in six months, if he wants to try again, then let him try.

If not and he's had a good half-season for Sao Paulo, then try to sell him.

Did anyone think Klaus Allofs is perfect? He's one of the best, but not perfect.

No one is.

[Duncan Idaho]

It should be crystalclear that there probably won't be a second try in the case CA. Bremen simply has to act business wise in this matter, loaning out gives them at least a bit refunding since Alberto won't get paid during the loan. As soon as Alberto has settled again in Brasil which won't take too long he'll likely never will want to go back and Sao Paolo will probably take him anyway (that means if he is playing halfway to his potential). so Bremen never will get in the need to want him back. The reason for it are simple Sao Paolo can extend the loan to a whole year, which means if they do the summer transfer period will be over and Bremen will have done their transfers and sportal planning without the name of CA. The loan is a simple try to hope for a market value raise of CA and to reduce the overall loss of this transfer

[footyfan1]

It should be crystalclear that there probably won't be a second try in the case CA. Bremen simply has to act business wise in this matter, loaning out gives them at least a bit refunding since Alberto won't get paid during the loan. As soon as Alberto has settled again in Brasil which won't take too long he'll likely never will want to go back and Sao Paolo will probably take him anyway (that means if he is playing halfway to his potential). so Bremen never will get in the need to want him back. The reason for it are simple Sao Paolo can extend the loan to a whole year, which means if they do the summer transfer period will be over and Bremen will have done their transfers and sportal planning without the name of CA. The loan is a simple try to hope for a market value raise of CA and to reduce the overall loss of this transfer


DI, what we both wrote are possibilities. Only difference is, you seem to rule out his getting another shot.

If Allofs is still around Bremen next season, I really think if there's any chance they can take another shot with this guy, they will.

Of course, it all depends on how he does at Sao Paulo.

If he does well, I'll bet he'll at least be at summer camp unless he tells them he doesn't wish to return to Bremen.

Which is why I said, "IF" he wants to try again.

I'm sorry, but given Allofs' track record with transfers, good and bad, I don't think they've completely given up on him yet.

I think, as you said, this is a move to boost his POTENTIAL (word added by me) transfer value.

"Potential" being the key word.......

[4x4s]

If Allofs is still around Bremen next season, I really think if there's any chance they can take another shot with this guy, they will.

However, this reminds of Gustavo Nery.Came from Brazil, left for Brazil again.I was pretty excited when he signed for Werder back then, but he featured in as many games as Carlos Alberto did, few.

It's just that Carlos Alberto cost Werder quite a load of cash, so it's also a matter of pride.

[footyfan1]

It's just that Carlos Alberto cost Werder quite a load of cash, so it's also a matter of pride.


Exactly why I think they won't totally give up on him so quickly......

[Duncan Idaho]

DI, what we both wrote are possibilities. Only difference is, you seem to rule out his getting another shot.

If Allofs is still around Bremen next season, I really think if there's any chance they can take another shot with this guy, they will.

Of course, it all depends on how he does at Sao Paulo.

If he does well, I'll bet he'll at least be at summer camp unless he tells them he doesn't wish to return to Bremen.

Which is why I said, "IF" he wants to try again.

I'm sorry, but given Allofs' track record with transfers, good and bad, I don't think they've completely given up on him yet.

I think, as you said, this is a move to boost his POTENTIAL (word added by me) transfer value.

"Potential" being the key word.......

Well, the point is more that you don't want to see the exit strategy written in this case. Mark my words, there is only one situation I could think of in which Bremen would take him back and this when they are unable to sign a replacement in summer and therefore might get in squad trouble (i.e. not enough players). Otherwise Bremen won't make any try in throwing more good money into the bad money slot which is named Carlos Alberto. Wouldn't Bremen be in a good financial situation they certainly would try to fire sale him, but as they clearly aren't they can take the time

[footyfan1]

Well, the point is more that you don't want to see the exit strategy written in this case.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?

I mentioned the possibilty of a sale in my original message.

Or didn't you read that part?


Mark my words, there is only one situation I could think of in which Bremen would take him back and this when they are unable to sign a replacement in summer and therefore might get in squad trouble (i.e. not enough players). Otherwise Bremen won't make any try in throwing more good money into the bad money slot which is named Carlos Alberto. Wouldn't Bremen be in a good financial situation they certainly would try to fire sale him, but as they clearly aren't they can take the time


I can think of two more situations that would entail his getting another chance.

1) They aren't offered enough money to make a sale worthwhile.

2) The player and/or his agent convinces them they want another shot and will make it work.

But we're not going to have a rational conversation on this subject, are we??

You can't when you're hoping for a certain outcome, can you?

[Brandon313]

wow he was the biggest dissapointment ive seen in a while....such hype around him and Diego playing together....but we need to just cut our losses and sign someone else...Werder cant throw 8 mio around like Bayern can

[Duncan Idaho]

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?

I mentioned the possibilty of a sale in my original message.

Or didn't you read that part?


The difference between my sight and yours is still there and if you include the word "sale" does not mean it will vanish or we are on the same level. Moreover I tend to believe that you think I have personal matter in this case which would render me "subjective"

To be more specific:

In my opinion Bremen will only take him back with a probability of less than 1%, which means a final sale is the most likely option. This opinion is based on simple business strategy (e.g. banks almost ever take back non-performing loans and their respective securities in form of real estate objects in the only hope for a better resale value in 2-3 years).

In your opinion the likelihood will be much higher that they will take him back



I can think of two more situations that would entail his getting another chance.

1) They aren't offered enough money to make a sale worthwhile.


Not thought through, because if they take him back they have to pay him again (now they don't have to which is part of the deal), therefore they will burn even more money this way and they've already burnt aprox. 10 Mio (transfer fee + signing fee + salary - loaning fee).
Contrary to other assets, a player asset has to play if there is hoped for a market value raise. In order to achieve this CA could have been loaned almost everywhere, but he is purposely loaned to Brasil - and certainly not only because CA wants it this way; Bremen here hopes to benefit more of Brasil than Russia or Holland as environment for CA. As they do own his ass now they want to capitalize as much as possible and this includes to plan without him for next season


2) The player and/or his agent convinces them they want another shot and will make it work.

You really believe that? Bremen already had its experience with the "not so easy" CA and all its "mental" problems. They also had a comparable experience with another brasilian named Gustavo Nery, so what should make them believe then? Because he will play well in Brasil then, which he already did before he moved to Bremen? I highly doubt that, if you ger burned once you won't let you burn twice by very same thing. How Bremen handled the Nery case should give quite a clear example of the future procedure with Alberto



But we're not going to have a rational conversation on this subject, are we??

You can't when you're hoping for a certain outcome, can you?

I don't have to hope for a certain outcome, because Bremen already burnt their asset and no matter what they will do it still will be bwasted money.

[LebenslangGruenWeiss]

I don't have to hope for a certain outcome, because Bremen already burnt their asset and no matter what they will do it still will be bwasted money.

Very pessimistic point of view.

What's with this scenario: He plays well for Sao Paulo. returns to Bremen and has an awesome 08/09 season in which Bremen manages to defend their title. That's just hypothetical of course but so is everything you say.

Fact is: Carlos needs playing time to get in form and he can't get in Bremens first team at the moment because of Aaron Hunt's resurrection

[footyfan1]

I don't have to hope for a certain outcome, because Bremen already burnt their asset and no matter what they will do it still will be bwasted money.


I'm not wasting my time with someone who refuses to see there are two sides to any situation.

Bremen fans, good luck with the situation. It doesn't look good now, but let's see what six months at home does for the guy.

At the very least, I hope you guys can recoup some of what you spent.

[Duncan Idaho]

I'm not wasting my time with someone who refuses to see there are two sides to any situation.


Your decision, but I can't help myself to get more and more the impression of you that as soon as you can't have the last and final word in any discussion you discredit your opponent. To spare me this pointless discussions with you in the future I'll simply avoid discussing with you, because the above discussion clearly shows that I'm not refusing the other side, as you claim that I am, but that I do rate it differently based on typical business attitude and therefore do I give these two sides a different but still founded weightage

[Duncan Idaho]

Very pessimistic point of view.

What's with this scenario: He plays well for Sao Paulo. returns to Bremen and has an awesome 08/09 season in which Bremen manages to defend their title. That's just hypothetical of course but so is everything you say.

It's pessimistic, because I can't see here your club getting any RoI that puts this matter break even

This scenario ignores one important thing, in order to play an awesome season in Bremen 08/09, Bremen has to agree in doing the gamble again. The gamble here is even more bigger than it was before its initial signing, because everyone knows he failed the first time and therefore he wont have much credit - neither with management nor with fans - in advance to succeed in his second try. Playing well in Brasil won't reduce this risk because a) he played very well in Brasil before Bremen signed him first and b) because the performances from there are not transferable per se to a different location.

Overall I have not learned Bremen to be a club that has endless hope and faith in its players, in fact I see Bremen rather than a club that does sort out the "bad" (i.e. not reaching the expectations; not even showing glimpses of potential) players really fast. They kept Ailton tough he did not have a good start, but they didn't keep Nery (as CA is from Brasil I only use Brasil players as example) and rather quickly loaned him out. Even if the whole circumstances with Nery or CA can't be cleared in full detail, I think the assumption is still correct to say that both had not only physical problems (i.e. injuries etc.) in Bremen, which caused the quick loaning out

Assuming they do the gamble a second time, they also have to take account for this scenarion in their plannings for next season, this will further complicate this scenario of taking back CA even more. If they do take him back they have limited resources for an alternative strategy (i.e. a replacement for CA that is sined when CA comes back), because they don't get a modest transfer for CA, which would refund the initial transfer a bit, and because they have to pay him salary again, which could be spent anywhere else if CA does not come back. Taking him back is also a matter of integrating a unknown player which is not necessarily easy stuff. In the case they don't take him back, Bremens room for maneuver will be better, because the get refunding (at least a bit) and have more salary options, therefore they can get a better and safer (i.e. in terms of succeeding at Bremen) CA replacement



Fact is: Carlos needs playing time to get in form and he can't get in Bremens first team at the moment because of Aaron Hunt's resurrection

Of course he need playing time, since this is the whole reason for loaning out, but if it would be just for the sake of playing time they could loan him to almost any club in Germany or Europe. Loaning to another german club would also reduce the whole risk of reintegrating and taking CA back if he could live up to his potential at the loaning club. It is also to note that this would improve the potential demand side in any attempt to sale him. Contrary loaning to Brasil also involves my proclaimed exit strategy

[LebenslangGruenWeiss]

You can't compare the current situation to the Nery-incident because Gustavo Nery was homesick. Whether CA is homesick or not can't be judged by anyone who isn't close to him. I admit that it's a possibility but it's not a certainty.
One thing is for sure though: He either had or is still having pschological issues that result in his sleeping disorder. In my opinion it's unlikely that these issues have only to do with him being far from home but at the same time it's more likely for him to get better in Brazil than here.
So there is no reason why he wouldn't want to come back to Bremen once he feels better and if that's the case there is no reason for Werder to sell him next season.