Sabermetrics applying to Soccer

[Andy_B]

One of the ways you could view our efforts at Player Performance Charting was to supply OPTA-like stats for the USMNT. Matchanalysis.com was doing something like that, but they have gone off in a different direction now, so, really, there's nothing out there for us American fans.

Karl I agree. In a perfect world, every MLS game and every US Nat game would be covered by a system that combined all the best from matchanalysis and opta.

As for opta, you can get them pretty much any where, here is just one of many links to stores that carry them

http://www.soccer-books.co.uk

Andy

[mpruitt]

We should probably try to break some of these conversations in the thread off into seperate threads and really begin to take advantage of the forum.

[Kevin in Louisiana]

Wow, great thread. A few comments:

1. What complexity is added to gathering this data if we look at individual players and track them as opposed to looking at a team's performance on the whole. If we're going to be collecting this data manually it might not (at least initially) be worth the effort to track a multitude of individual stats. I think there's a lot to look at on a teamwide basis.

2. Chance: it seems that if there were a clear enough understanding of what this refers to it would be easily trackable, and I would hypothesize that this would be useful information in a statistical analysis.

3. Before going headfirst into gathering data on MLS and Nats games, I think it would be better to look at stats that are already available from other leagues (from OPTA, etc.) and do sabermetrics (should we call it sasermetrics? ;)) on that data to see what sort of data is the most important to collect.

[mpruitt]

sasermetrics sounds too sissy. somewhere along these pages someone coined Soccermetrics and I think that's what we're going on right now.

[mpruitt]

just a bump to reinspire

[soccercoachguru]

I just found this thread at it is great to see.

While discussing this subject with a coach from Washington DC, I am from Indiana, (actually talking about a book I was writing) he brought up the name of Charles Reap.

This guy is from England and has performed statistacal analysis on all aspects of soccer. Apparently he is regarded as a pariah in the euro community - the same way Coerver was (still is to some degree) when started out.

A company that provides stats for us soccer and major college programs like UNC is found at http://www.softsport.com/en/SecondLook.asp. They have a good concept - revolving information around the ball while it is in play.

Just thought I would throw that out to see if anyone else will show up and respond.

[mpruitt]

Welcome to the boards. Thanks for the information. How'd you find us here?

[mpruitt]

That site is pretty neat btw, it looks a lot like match analysis has tried to do in the past but without the sort of second layer of player rating analysis. It's just a piece of software though, so someone would be charged with inputing all the information in real time? Have you ever used it? EDIT: Oh nevermind...it is almost just like matchanalysis. Check it out http://www.softsport.com/database/lagalaxy/analysis/ Althoguht just like Matchanalysis it seems that their site is pretty antiquated, last copyright is 2001.

[mellon002]

Maxim had an idea to sticky this thread so that people can find it easily through Google or Yahoo. With all the housecleaning the administrators have been doing to old threads recently I think it's a good idea.

[mellon002]

What does everybody else think about me trying to summarize everything in the 16 pages of this thread into one post? This way newbies can see everything without having to search through endless pages of posts. I would close this thread, keep the same title (in order to have success with search engines), and create a new thread. What do you think?

[sljohn]

That would kick-a$$.

[microbrew]

This thread is better off as a Wiki type document. Now to find a Wiki server somehere....

[ChrisE]

This thread is better off as a Wiki type document. Now to find a Wiki server somehere....

I agree.

Profiled? Foosinho?

[mpruitt]

What does everybody else think about me trying to summarize everything in the 16 pages of this thread into one post? This way newbies can see everything without having to search through endless pages of posts. I would close this thread, keep the same title (in order to have success with search engines), and create a new thread. What do you think?Yeah I've always wanted to write a mission statement or introductory for the forum but i've always been too lazy to do it. Maybe combine it with the resources thread etc etc.

[soccercoachguru]

Welcome to the boards. Thanks for the information. How'd you find us here?


Thanks,
I did a yahoo search for statistics in soccer - don't remember the exact string - and I found this on the third page I think.

[kenntomasch]

We need to rectify that. Maybe sticky a thread with one post in it that says nothing but "statistics in soccer, soccer statistics, soccermetrics" and on and on. Like our own little meta tag deal.

[TheWorstKind]

OK guys, this is a very interesting thread, but I couldn't possibly slog my way through all 16 pages of posts. I do want to give my two cents worth, though. If somebody has already pointed out these things, I apologize for beating a dead horse.

If I were a soccer coach, I would build my team around the following principles:

1. That if we don't let the other guys score, we will win (team tactic).

2. Soccer is a game of mistakes. The team that makes the fewest mistakes will allow the least opportunities to score (mental concentration). Goals happen because the defending team made a mistake.

3. Win 50/50 balls (desire and determination).

4. Order, discipline, and fitness (this is the biggie!)

Here are the stats I ask for (these are all based on suppoorting the above principles) when evaluating individuals. Please understand that I also use the intangible method of gut feel when observing a particular player.

How many times was the defender/halfback in the correct/wrong position/tracking when on the defensive?

50/50 balls contested, won/lost.

Tackles won/lost.

Fouls committed, tactical/dumb.

Passes received.

Passes completed/lost.

Probing passes struck, successfull,yes/no, if no, due to runner/bad pass.

How many times a midfileder/forward takes on an opponent, won/lost.

Shots taken, left foot, right foot, head.

Goals scored, left foot, right foot, head.

All of these are recorded, along with the time. Timing these events is an integral part of determining a player's fitness. Of course, I also use the medical data, as well, and basic fitness tests.

I am excluding goalkeepers from this write-up, for the time being.

In videos/at games I look for off-the-ball movement, somewhat quantifiable by passes received, but not to a large extend. I really don't know how to quantify the dynamic aspect of offense. Particularly, as an offensive run might look good, but was actually only good because of a defensive mistake.

Obviously, I am a proponent of playing solidly out of the back. I hope this gives you an impetus for more thoughts on what stats could be usefull - nuclear fission, after all, came about because somebody was willing to explore the probalities of what could happen to a neutron during its life-cycle!

It would be really awesome if you guys come up with something that works, and then pass it on (for free, of course! :D )

[soccercoachguru]

This is a link to the website of a guy who created a rating system for wide receivers in football. It is suppose to be similar to the QB rating.

Interesting to read about.

http://home.nc.rr.com/rosmith/nfl/ni.html

[Dhyasama]

Does anyone do anything like project scoresheet with soccer?

If you watch a lot of games and are interested in statistical analysis then why not combine the two?

I'm interested in helping start the project one doesn't exist.

[1953 4-2-4]

Few of you really understand soccer it seems, but would desperately like to, if you could only quantify the game, break it down into #'s, then a little arithmetic, and "viola!" you are now able to actually verbalize why Armas is a poor player. However, Anson Dorrance is a dum$ass. There are SO many important things in soccer that you can not quantify--ever. Count "how quickly does X player get goalside from the time your team loses the ball? Did he help offensively on the previous play? Is he in position now because he is afraid to ever get into atttack? IS he marking X player on every play, or is he switching with a teammate?" Just one thing, but just an example. The game is too complex to derive any meaningful information other than the very basic of stats. And if you are a coach, and have to look at a chart to have a feel for which of your players has a high passing %, then you shouldn't be a coach.