Alex Gorin

[WFU03]

I just wanted to commend Alex Gorin and the rest of the crew, Erich Simmons, Chico Grajeda, Miguel Chicas, from the Wake Forest/Virginia Tech national semifinal match. I thought Gorin did a fantastic job in the middle and it made me a bit more curious about him. Has he ever gotten a shot at the MLS level? If not, he certainly deserves it.

[falcon.7]

Alex refereed in the old Soviet Premier League back in the late '80s when it was one of the best in the world. He was also at College Cup the past two years. Why no MLS? I don't know. There are a number of very good college referees who, for whatever reason, do not do pro/MLS games, including...

Erich Simmons. He was on the MLS list, but no longer. Did the NCAA final last year (UCLA-UCSB) and is hands-down one of the best referees in the nation. However, MLS was represented by...

Hilario (Chico) Grajeda and Miguel Chicas. Both MLS guys with a few years experience, so they know what's up.

What I'm getting at is that the crew looked good because they are. Wish we could say the same about the final...

[WFU03]

Yeah, you'll notice I didn't mention the job that the final crew did...because my momma taught me that if I didn't have anything nice to say, I should keep my mouth shut.

[MassachusettsRef]

Tsapos used to be on the MLS list awhile back too, for the record. From what I understand, he was dropped for a very specific incident.

I'm not so sure Simmons is done with MLS--at least, I hope not.

I don't know Gorin at all, but not only is he not on MLS' radar, he's not even listed in the professional USSF database, meaning he doesn't do any pro games. Is he even USSF registered? Where does he live now? If he reffed in the Soviet league in the 80s, maybe he was too old when he came here to make a serious run? Did he hold a FIFA badge?

EDIT: a little research shows Gorin came here either in 91 or 92 and that he lives in SoCal and does PAC-10 games: http://www.lapremierleague.com/referee [interesting website, especially since it shows him with no badge in that Los Angeles Premier League]

[USSF REF]

I've met Erich a few times and I still think him to be a very high quality referee.

But that is besides the point. I thought I would take this time to remind people on this board who may not know that college refereeing is wholly separate from the USSF refereeing which assigns and trains our pro/international referees.

Unlike other American pro leagues the MLS cannot select some college officials because they are not certified with the USSF. Conversely, with say the NFL, college officials are watched and if good enough are selected from those refs (who have to apply to the NFL directly.)

[falcon.7]

I thought I would take this time to remind people on this board who may not know that college refereeing is wholly separate from the USSF refereeing which assigns and trains our pro/international referees.

That's why I said "for whatever reason...". It is worth noting that the vast majority of college referees are also USSF certified, although the "who's who" in USSF doesn't necessarily match the "who's who" in NISOA (and vice-versa), even if it's a lot of the same people.

[WFU03]

Unlike other American pro leagues the MLS cannot select some college officials because they are not certified with the USSF. Conversely, with say the NFL, college officials are watched and if good enough are selected from those refs (who have to apply to the NFL directly.)

Couldn't they easily get around this though by simply telling a prospective ref to get USSF certified? It would seem a bit silly for him/her to have to go through the class, but I'm sure if they really wanted a ref, they could make it happen.

From watching the game, Gorin is good enough to warrant targeting him.

[CalNorth Pride]

While I do not know for sure, it looks like the LA Premier league is unaffiliated with USSF. Anyone know for sure? As such, anyone can referee in the league as no certification is needed. If it is unaffiliated, I can almost guarantee that Gorin is not a USSF official as working in unaffiliated leagues is a big no-no for USSF. In addition, if Gorin is not a US citizen he would be unable to obtain a national referee badge, which would make him unable to do professional league games.

[USSF REF]

Couldn't they easily get around this though by simply telling a prospective ref to get USSF certified? It would seem a bit silly for him/her to have to go through the class, but I'm sure if they really wanted a ref, they could make it happen.

From watching the game, Gorin is good enough to warrant targeting him.

The thing is... the referee would have to then upgrade to at least grade 6 (state referee) in order to be qualified for professional matches. USSF has also said that only National Referees may serve on the MLS panel except in very extreme circumstances. Needless to say, even with fast tracking, getting this ref into MLS would take some years.

[WFU03]

That's a shame. It was easily one of the best jobs by a ref I've seen in the US regardless of level.

[andymoss]

NISOA and USSF don't really see eye-to-eye, so regardless of how good a referee is, and there are some incredibly talented college referees out there, if he or she isn't also already a federation referee, there will be no special recruiting and thus, no high level assignments.

[PVancouver]

Tsapos used to be on the MLS list awhile back too, for the record. From what I understand, he was dropped for a very specific incident.An old thread of yours indicates that the only year Tsapos reffed in MLS was 2000. He was a finalist for Referee of the Year in WUSA in 2002.

[CalNorth Pride]

I just finished watching the Ohio St. V WF final. What a travesty of officiating, especially in the 2nd half. The CR simply did not take control early and things quickly escalated. Does anyone know if the Ohio goalkeeper was cautioned after his dissent after the 2nd goal? It didn't look like it. He not only leaves the P.A. to dissent, but screams in the AR face and even grabs him. Anyone know what he was complaining about, I could not tell? IMO, a player puts a hand on me or one of my crew their day is done. Also, how could that boot to the face not be a red for SFP. I thought overall the CR lacked courage to enforce things that needed to be enforced. Not only the big things, but encroachment, delay of restarts, dissent, etc. Anyone have thoughts or insight?

[WFU03]

I just finished watching the Ohio St. V WF final. What a travesty of officiating, especially in the 2nd half. The CR simply did not take control early and things quickly escalated. Does anyone know if the Ohio goalkeeper was cautioned after his dissent after the 2nd goal? It didn't look like it. He not only leaves the P.A. to dissent, but screams in the AR face and even grabs him. Anyone know what he was complaining about, I could not tell? IMO, a player puts a hand on me or one of my crew their day is done. Also, how could that boot to the face not be a red for SFP. I thought overall the CR lacked courage to enforce things that needed to be enforced. Not only the big things, but encroachment, delay of restarts, dissent, etc. Anyone have thoughts or insight?

A lot of thoughts on this match, some on the officiating, some on the play in this thread:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=634371

[flornatref]

Tsapos worked his first match in MLS in 2000 between Chicago and Tampa Bay. Twenty minutes into the match, Steve Trittschuh of Tampa straight-leg tackled Peter Novak right below the knee. Tsapos only gave a yellow. Novak had to be removed from the match. Then, in the 2nd half, he called a pk against Tampa on a tackle that clearly occurred a good yard outside the penalty area. Plus, the Mutiny player only made contact with the ball sending it to the goalkeeper. Most of us thought it was a pass back to the keeper being called. I heard he did a game in San Jose the next weekend and graded out poorly there as well. That was it for his MLS career as a referee.

[MassachusettsRef]

Does anyone know if the Ohio goalkeeper was cautioned after his dissent after the 2nd goal? It didn't look like it.He was cautioned. Box score indicates so and the ESPN feed showed Tsapos putting the caution back into his pocket after the injury.

Anyone know what he was complaining about, I could not tell?I'm guessing, but I believe he wanted a handling call on #9 before he passed it across. You can't see from any of the ESPN feeds, but the camera angle from behind the play does show the ball bounce up above the knee as he's dribbling. It's very possible that the ball made contact with the hand, and the only person on the field who would have had a perfect view was the goalkeeper. He also seemed to be smart enough to realize that only the AR--and not the CR--had a chance at seeing it.

Now, whether or not it was handled is a completely different matter. Did the AR see contact and not think it was handling? Did the AR not see any contact? Was there any contact in the first place? Without a new camera angle (or a discussion with the AR) it's all impossible to know.

IMO, a player puts a hand on me or one of my crew their day is done.I see where you're coming from, but two things to consider. First, USSF put together a pretty good position paper on this about a year ago, where it came down hard on contact with referees. That being said, not everything amounts to red and you need to be discerning. Which leads me to my second point--in this case (extra time in a national championship match), if nothing is violent or intimidating (or preventing you from doing your job, like taking a card or flag from your hand), I think you go conservatively and give the caution. Also, in a match where violent play hasn't gotten a red card, it's pretty hard to justify giving a red when a player puts his hand on your AR's arm or chest.

[flornatref]

Also, in a match where violent play hasn't gotten a red card, it's pretty hard to justify giving a red when a player puts his hand on your AR's arm or chest.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Plus, the real violent play did not occur till after this incident. This situation helped raise the level of brutality that was occurring on the field.

[flornatref]

This is the incident I was referring to above.

I've heard from several different sources that this one call effectively ended Tsapos' MLS career.

The more things change the more they stay the same. Look at Valentin's face.

[MassachusettsRef]

Two wrongs do not make a right.That's not the entire context of what I said, so the cliche is misapplied.

I said right before the part you quoted that--absence violence or intimidation--I think the yellow is the proper call in this match. I only added the context of violent play to illustrate how badly a red card would have looked if given for what occurred.

And, I said even earlier in the post, not all touching of a referee is worthy of a red card to begin with, as USSF pointed out recently. From what I saw--regardless of the context of other misconduct or the ramifications of the match--nothing the keeper did arose to the level of violent conduct. Video is available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC1GB5rZ-2I

Do you disagree?

Plus, the real violent play did not occur till after this incident. This situation helped raise the level of brutality that was occurring on the field.Does "this incident" refer to the dissent or to the goal itself? If you're referring to the goal, then of course I agree. We're taught since our first advanced clinics that a vital goal--especially a controversial one--raises the temperature of the match.

But if you're saying that the keeper running over to the AR caused his teammates to play more violently. Well, I just think that's naive. OSU players who are literally seeing their national title hopes slip away and only have minutes to get back a goal are probably not looking back, getting heated because their keeper ran over to the AR.

I would take your argument and twist it a little. Rather than saying this dissent led to violent play later, I would argue that allowing reckless and violent play throughout the match led to the dissent being more vehement when this goal occurred.

[PVancouver]

Schilawski's winner came off a pass from junior forward Marcus Tracy. OSU goalkeeper Casey Latchem believed Tracy used a handball to play the ball through, and he received a yellow card for vehemently arguing his case.

After the game, he again approached the officials to complain.

"I tried to make them see it, but apparently that doesn't work out all the time," Latchem said.

Bluem said that after watching the replay he also thought the handball was "pretty apparent," but Tracy disagreed.

"To me, it was not a handball," he said. "The ref didn't call it as a handball."I still think that the ball likely did touch Tracy's hand or arm but it is doubtful that it should have been called a foul. Either Latchem though it was a clearcut handball, or he was completely out of line. Certainly he is misguided.