Greatest Modern Player ??

[babaorum]

France in the World Cup from 1998-2006, EuroCup 1996-2004 and the Confederations Cup 2001-2003 averaged less than two gols a game, some how that doesn't strike me as impressive not offensively anyhow. What is impressive is that with that scoring record they were able to win two Confeds, one Euro and One World Cup. France owes all their credit to the defense plain and simple. Of course that's my opinion and you are more than welcome to disagree.

We'll agree to disagree then :). France was mainly a defensive team of course but my point was simply that you can't overlook the record of their strikers -not 'poor' by any mean except for Guivarch (who didn't play after 98 anyway) and Dugarry (who played more as a left forward after 98)- and the part Zidane played in this (1 goal or assist every 2 games and a large number of other goals he undirectly set up by his decisions and moves in midfield).

[FWS93]

i would say zidane, Ronaldo( say what you want about his injuries but the guy has scored more world cup goals than anyone ever) and Batistuta. for me these are the players that are elevated above the rest in the last 15 years .as fopr current players well on the way to this plateau i would have to say that C. Ronaldo & Messi pop to mind first

[Dr. Know]

Riquelme would try too often to make a sensational pass and gave the ball away more than Zidane.

Link? Provide me the evidence that he gave the ball away more than Zidane?

and the point about their supporting cast players, posters keep saying that zidane needed to be surrounded by great players, but in actuality zidane made the great players around him even better,

He was still surrounded by incredible players that didn't NEED Zidane to succeed.

riquelme was incapable of dominating unless the team was built around him and he was the star of the team

And? He still made the players around him better just as much as Zidane and it's a even bigger feat considering the players he made better weren't superstars. What's a bigger feat? Helping Raul-Morientes, Ronaldo score or helping Forlan score? Raising the level of play of Luis Figo or raising the level of play of Sorin? Gee that's a tough one :rolleyes:.

[phil80]

Link? Provide me the evidence that he gave the ball away more than Zidane?



He was still surrounded by incredible players that didn't NEED Zidane to succeed.



And? He still made the players around him better just as much as Zidane and it's a even bigger feat considering the players he made better weren't superstars. What's a bigger feat? Helping Raul-Morientes, Ronaldo score or helping Forlan score? Raising the level of play of Luis Figo or raising the level of play of Sorin? Gee that's a tough one :rolleyes:.
Comparing their style of play is something that doesnt go on the
stats sheet. If you want a reference, rewatch the last world cup and pay attention to who was better at holding the ball and who gave it away more, it is a no brainer.

Zidane made great players better, Riquelme made good players better, it is an incremental relationship, one is not better than the other, but if posters like you are going to use the fact that zidane had to be surrounded by great players than the reverse is true, riquelme is incapable of doing anything useful unless surrounded by average players

[Dr. Know]

Comparing their style of play is something that doesnt go on the
stats sheet. If you want a reference, rewatch the last world cup and pay attention to who was better at holding the ball and who gave it away more, it is a no brainer.

So you're talking out of your ass and you have no evidence to back your claim that Riquelme gave the ball away more than Zidane. OK.

riquelme is incapable of doing anything useful unless surrounded by average players

This makes absolutely no sense. Riquelme has done incredibly for the Argentine NT. Unless you happen to think they are a bunch of average players.

[phil80]

i would say zidane, Ronaldo( say what you want about his injuries but the guy has scored more world cup goals than anyone ever) and Batistuta. for me these are the players that are elevated above the rest in the last 15 years .as fopr current players well on the way to this plateau i would have to say that C. Ronaldo & Messi pop to mind first
no romario?

[phil80]

So you're talking out of your ass and you have no evidence to back your claim that Riquelme gave the ball away more than Zidane. OK.



This makes absolutely no sense. Riquelme has done incredibly for the Argentine NT. Unless you happen to think they are a bunch of average players.
why dont you post something useful and explain in what aspects of the game Riquelme was superior. if one is comparing players without using stats or individual medals then there is no link and it is not found on any stat sheet this is common sense to most for you it seems like you are a little slow in understanding. if you want i will be more than happy to provide all the links and sites comparing which player has the better stats, inidvidual achivements, and won more trophies since that is all you can comprehend.

As for Argentina, the entire team play is based around him (otherwise he couldnt play) and that has hurt them more than helped. They underperformed in the knockout stages of the world cup and lost badly to a brazil team without their stars and ended up losing in a tournament that they shouldve win incredibly easily.

[kingkong1]

riquelme is incapable of doing anything useful unless surrounded by average players. (...) He (Zidane) was still surrounded by incredible players that didn't NEED Zidane to succeed.I think it's fruitless this discussion about Zidane, Maradona, Romário, Pelé, C. Ronaldo, Riquelme, having great players around them to help them or not.

Of course we are talking successful teams in wich campaigns they participated.

One player can decide or influence decisively just by himself in a couple of games, but NOT in a whole campaign.

And we're talking here about World Cups (and qualifiers), EuroCups, America Cups, CLs, Libertadores, which, as in any other long tournament, require the efficient cooperation of all 11 or 22 players of a cast, independently of their names being famous or known by the public or not.

No player has ever been champion at an international or in a high domestic level just by himself.

In the same manner the 'others' helped, Zidane, Maradona, Pelé, Romário, Riquelme, C. Ronaldo did too.

On the contrary of what was quoted above, in ALL those successful campaigns, everybody needed everybody for their teams to succeed.

Be them the 'stars' or 'coadjuvants'.

I know I might be sounding too 'obvious' and 'eccumenic' - almost as a priest: and that's what I sometimes accuse Teso of...

But stating the above quoted opinions is the same as saying that Jesus was only 'successful' because of his disciples, or vice-versa.

[kingkong1]

Well, bye for now:

Flamengo x Botafogo (semi-finals Rio de Janeiro State Championship 2008) starts in 15 minutes, and good players wil be there: Bruno (goalie, prospect for Brz NT), Leonardo Moura (best right defender last Brz Chpmshp), Ibson (best mid last Brz Chmpshp), Kleberson (W Champion in 2002), Souza (biggest scorer 2006 Brz Chmpshp) and Obina ("Obina é melhor que Etto'h!...") on Flamengo side.

Castillo (Uruguay NT), Jorge Henrique (pay attention to this name) on Botafogo's side.

And (back to the topic):

With the massive presence of the 'greatest modern player of the world', the immense 'torcida' of Flamengo (with its 35 million rooters) :cool: ...

[Dr. Know]

why dont you post something useful and explain in what aspects of the game Riquelme was superior.

Tell me where I said he was superior? I was just calling you out on your typical bullshit.

if one is comparing players without using stats or individual medals then there is no link and it is not found on any stat sheet this is common sense to most for you it seems like you are a little slow in understanding.

Are you this dumb? You claimed as if it were a fact that Riquelme loses the ball more than Zidane. I claimed to back up your statement with some sort of evidence which you clearly don't have. But keep going off on your little tangents.

if you want i will be more than happy to provide all the links and sites comparing which player has the better stats, inidvidual achivements, and won more trophies since that is all you can comprehend.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

As for Argentina, the entire team play is based around him (otherwise he couldnt play) and that has hurt them more than helped. They underperformed in the knockout stages of the world cup and lost badly to a brazil team without their stars and ended up losing in a tournament that they shouldve win incredibly easily.

And yet again you change your argument. You come out saying that "riquelme is incapable of doing anything useful unless surrounded by average players" which of course is hilariously incorrect and now you start talking about something else.

This has been discussed billions of times on numerous forums. If you don't know what you are talking about please go find the threads and read them.

[phil80]

Tell me where I said he was superior? I was just calling you out on your typical bullshit.



Are you this dumb? You claimed as if it were a fact that Riquelme loses the ball more than Zidane. I claimed to back up your statement with some sort of evidence which you clearly don't have. But keep going off on your little tangents.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:



And yet again you change your argument. You come out saying that "riquelme is incapable of doing anything useful unless surrounded by average players" which of course is hilariously incorrect and now you start talking about something else.

This has been discussed billions of times on numerous forums. If you don't know what you are talking about please go find the threads and read them.
When did i claim it was a documented fact riquelme loses the ball more? Quit talking out of your a$$
It is a subjective aspect of the game that is not found on any stat sheet and i gave my opinion on their differences, which you are incapable of understanding.
If someone as ignorant as yourself claims zidane's supporting cast did not need him, then someone can equal that foolish claim by saying riquelme cant play with great players. Your logic is pathetic but it has become expected from you.

[Dr. Know]

When did i claim it was a documented fact riquelme loses the ball more? Quit talking out of your a$$
It is a subjective aspect of the game that is not found on any stat sheet and i gave my opinion on their differences, which you are incapable of understanding.

"Riquelme would try too often to make a sensational pass and gave the ball away more than Zidane."

That's what you said. Sounds like you're claiming it as an actual fact to me. If you can't prove it why should I even take your claim seriously?

If someone as ignorant as yourself claims zidane's supporting cast did not need him, then someone can equal that foolish claim by saying riquelme cant play with great players. Your logic is pathetic but it has become expected from you.

I suggest you go read some of Tribune's threads about Zidane and how much those supporting casts "needed" him. It's hilarious how the Zidane fanboys had zero response for them. Maybe then you can actually enlighten yourself and stop writing so much crap in every single post.

[kingkong1]

well, milan is in 5th place now, though yes, when milan had struggled earlier plus had games in hand, milan was further down. regardless, that srgument might hold a lot more sway, if it wasn't for the fact that most of the greatest milan periods all known for foreign trios...gre-no-li, and later the dutch trio...and the capello squads had boban, dejan, weah, desailly...not exactly uni-or bi-national. admittedly, those squads were mostly italian, but they had different "tongues" that were translated nicely and coalesced.

the more recent squads, which have won everything, from domestic league and cup to the cl, super cup and club world cup, some of those multiple times...very diverse, much more diverse...maybe you will argue their main large european counterparts have diversified so much as well, that it is a wash, but then that is kind of a different debate, regardless, i don't think milan's problem this season was too many countries, or else the success achieved in the recent past would never had happened as consistently and thoroughly as it did.

plus, of those players you listed, ba, simic, and gourcuff have hardly played at all this season, and kalac is a keeper, and janks has been plagued by injuries, so those examples are pretty bad...:D

regardless, this is getting way off-topic, anyways.

oh, and i wouldn't count milan out of the cl just quite yet...;)Try sleeping with such a noise...

You bring he 'Babel Tower' issue back (BTW, conceding to have always understood it perfectly) and now complains the discussion is getting off-topic...

Of course I was exaggerating about that 13th place, but a 5th place 15 (13, 18?) points below is almost the same...

Besides I cited Milan only as one example among many - nothing personal agst rossoneros.

What I meant was:

As far as your multi-national 11s (or 22s) are concerned, European football leagues and clubs in the last decades have been progressively losing their essence - worse: they are about to lose their own character.

The more money they pump in their clubs the more irregular and faceless they get.

There is no room anymore for a real 'modern player', team or NT in their leagues (domestic, continental or worldwise) for more than one season simply because there is no more 'modern football' being practiced at all in the European's clubs context.

That if we conceive football as it should be conceived: as neatly characterized 'schools' - or ensembles of tactical conceptions - coherently evolving and productively clashing against each other.

What is very 'beautiful' and 'aesthetic' to see, Teso.

Of course occasionally there can happen great games specially when triggered by great and traditional rivalries.

But nowadays in Europe the tactical panorama is a gigantic chaos, and the real 'clash' you 'modernly' witness is the clash of coins in the club owner's pockets.

'Modern football' nowadays in Europe is more a matter of 'which are the richest contemporary leagues', than the advent of new and 'original' football style(s).

What's very good to the Berlusconis and Kia Koorabchians of life and to the autograph's chasers.

But a tremendous disservice to the great European football tradition and to the world game as a whole.

[jpick]

of course, i understood it, I was just kidding, man, you're only partially incoherent, but I can usually get the gist of what you're saying in between the multi-colored font...:D

[FWS93]

no romario?

hmmm i'd say he is just under the group i listed because he kind of was a phenomenon one day and then playing on some BS team not caring about anything but 1000 goals the next. not a personal favorite of mine but i would not argue too much against his skills

[Moishe]

Phil80 where are these posts which posters claimed Zidane "needed" to be surrounded by great players? If you go back and actually read the posts that led this thread to this point you'd clearly notice that was mentioned that Zidane was always surrounded by great players not that he needed to be.

What others, myself included have tried in vain to point out to you is that while Zidane was a brilliant player, you cannot pin one club or countries players success to the actions of his play. What you can't seem to accept is that had Zidane never arrived at Juve or Real they still would've accomplished all they did.

[phil80]

"Riquelme would try too often to make a sensational pass and gave the ball away more than Zidane."

That's what you said. Sounds like you're claiming it as an actual fact to me. If you can't prove it why should I even take your claim seriously?
.

Now, where in that quote do i claim it as an actual fact? Quit squirming and answer that question.
That is my take on the differences of the two players since it is not fair to Riquelme if someone just used stats and individual accomplishments (zidane would blow him out of the water). Based on watching the two, riquelme slows the game down more and tries for the difficult pass too often compared to zidane. Nowhere is this documented and no one ever said it was, only an ignoramus would expect it to be, and if you're going to get your panties in a bunch because someone rates your man-crush differently than yourself then go somewhere else and leave the discussion for the adults.

[phil80]

What you can't seem to accept is that had Zidane never arrived at Juve or Real they still would've accomplished all they did.

Strongly disagree. You really think zidane had no influence on those teams?

[Moishe]

Strongly disagree. You really think zidane had no influence on those teams?

It has nothing to do with his having an influence or not. The fact is both those sides were very strong and very talented regardless of Zidane and could've have easily accomplished all they did without him. Naturally these are things we'll never know with certainty but very possible and still arguably likely.

[phil80]

It has nothing to do with his having an influence or not. The fact is both those sides were very strong and very talented regardless of Zidane and could've have easily accomplished all they did without him. Naturally these are things we'll never know with certainty but very possible and still arguably likely.
I agree both sides were already talented but that is like saying milan would have accomplished everything even without pirlo on the team since they had kaka, inzaghi, seedorf, shevchenko. It doesnt work like that because pirlo was an important player just like zidane was for those sides. Just because the squad was already talented doesnt mean zidane did not have an impact and make the sides better.