Greatest Modern Player ??

[Twix]

Well ... I am not trolling. That's my honest opinion. Rivaldo was definitely a player that could change the game by himself. But I think Zidane used the team around him much better.
No. I didn't think you were trolling either.

It's just that whenever someone proclaims Zidane to the best at something, Teso Dos Bichos always finds a way to set them straight. I thought you made some good points, so I was wondering how Teso was going to counter them. That's all.

[kingkong1]

Aesthetics are not completely irrelevant. The most efficient movement is the most beautiful. Control, strength and coordination equals grace. More grace is greater control, strength and coordination.The above is rubbish because it deals with aesthetics.What is 'football intelligence'? Like aesthetics it is something that cannot be defined because it is inherently subjective
Rubbish 1 (aesthetics=efficiency):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bIR1aBDYU&feature=related

Rubbish 2 (aesthetics=efficiency)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExUX7MBk5UM&NR=1

Rubbish 3 (aesthetics=efficiency):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HEStk1zoyWo&feature=related

Soo 'subjective'! :rolleyes: ...

PS: Why always England?...

[Teso Dos Bichos]

The above post is nonsense.

[jpick]

I like kingkong...but when he starts talking about "tower of babel" of modern football, etc. head for the hills, you won't understand a damn thing he says. :p

[kingkong1]

I like kingkong...but when he starts talking about "tower of babel" of modern football, etc. head for the hills, you won't understand a damn thing he says.Gonna like me even more after you read this :p ...

Seedorf is Dutch, Kaká Brazilian, Simic Croatian, Kaladze Georgian, Gourcuf French, Ba Ibbrahim Senegalese, Zeljco Australian, Marek Czchek. - how can they 'understand a damn thing' each other says?

Result: your Milan 13th place in Serie A, practically out of the 2009 CL.

If they get confused, why not you?...

Understand now? Smart boy ;) ...

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=6160&rendTypeId=4

[Kulspruta]

Yeah, the impression I got is that kingkong is always tripping on acid or something, but his posts are good reads nevertheless. :D

[kingkong1]

Yeah, the impression I got is that kingkong is always tripping on acid or something, but his posts are good reads nevertheless.That's the idea!...

Way better than reading:The above post is nonsenseDah.

PS: I know I can be 'acid', but never dull like that :rolleyes: ...

[Teso Dos Bichos]

It might be dull but at least it is accurate. It's better than looking like an idiot by spouting rubbish that has no basis in reality.

[kingkong1]

It might be dull but at least it is accurate. It's better than looking like an idiot by spouting rubbish that has no basis in reality.Accurate?...

You say nothing in your posts, Teso.

You just ridiculously decree: 'that's nonsense', 'that's rubbish', 'that's subjective',and don't even respect the people you interrupt so grossly by at least giving your reasons as why their arguments are 'nonsense', 'subjective' or 'rubbish'...

Who do you think you are with your ridiculous hat, dull creature?...

Swallow (once more):

Rubbish 1 (aesthetics=efficiency):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bIR...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bIR1aBDYU&feature=related)

Rubbish 2 (aesthetics=efficiency)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExUX7MBk5UM&NR=1

Rubbish 3 (aesthetics=efficiency):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HEStk1zoyWo&feature=related

Soo 'subjective'! :rolleyes: ...

PS: Why always England?...:(

[Teso Dos Bichos]

It's not my fault that you are incapable of grasping why aesthetics are an irrelevance when comparing players.

[kingkong1]

It's not my fault that you are incapable of grasping why aesthetics are an irrelevance when comparing players.GTGunning just brilliantly showed (and I added evidence in his support) that the aesthetics of a player or a team in a game resided in its/his efficiency in scoring (or leading to) score - or defend - GOALS, which is the ultimate 'object' of football.

And in that aspect Zidane, as a team man, was superb.

He might not, as you say, be necessarilly 'consistent', but he had the ability to command and to appear in key moments, which is a rare gift even among great players.

But: that I prefer to be 'idiot' to be 'dull', I prefer...

My girlfriend's just whispered to me: do be idiot, King1, but not dull, p-l-e-a-s-e...

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Pity you are still basing things on aesthetics. I do wonder when, or indeed if, you will finally grasp that aesthetics are an irrelevance because they are inherently subjective to each individual person. Plus Zidane's record in key moments is not that great. He is incorrectly labeled a clutch player but his overall record states differently.

[kingkong1]

Pity you are still basing things on aesthetics. I do wonder when, or indeed if, you will finally grasp that aesthetics are an irrelevance because they are inherently subjective to each individual personMan, a beautiful play does bother a few people, doesn'it?...

What do you have against aesthetics?...

Do you think that people go to stadiums just to see automatons playing square and gracelesslly?...

Do you go to a game just to mechanically register 'objective' moves?...

You're not so 'perfect'...

Besides, what's so 'subjective' about a beautiful play? People recognize it immediatelly when they see it, they know exactly WHY that play is beautiful, and the response is APPLAUSE.

And they'll go to their training camps knowing the precise steps in order to reproduce it.

You might not notice in the moment, but there is a lot of science behind a beautiful play.

An elástico by Rivelino is a work of art, but is also a very objective succession of effective and analysible movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMXn5hpxaxE

You really surprise me as the the Scottsman you declare to be, since Scotland has one of the most elegant and aesthetic football traditions of the world.

And if it didn't win titles was because it had to divide the space in the island with economically stronger England.

[gmonn]

Pity you are still basing things on aesthetics.

You're right, it seems he's judging YOU based on aesthetics now. :)

[Teso Dos Bichos]

And he still doesn't get it.

[jpick]

Gonna like me even more after you read this ...

Seedorf is Dutch, Kaká Brazilian, Simic Croatian, Kaladze Georgian, Gourcuf French, Ba Ibbrahim Senegalese, Zeljco Australian, Marek Czchek. - how can they 'understand a damn thing' each other says?

Result: your Milan 13th place in Serie A, practically out of the 2009 CL.

If they get confused, why not you?...

Understand now? Smart boy ;) ...

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=6160&rendTypeId=4


well, milan is in 5th place now, though yes, when milan had struggled earlier plus had games in hand, milan was further down. regardless, that srgument might hold a lot more sway, if it wasn't for the fact that most of the greatest milan periods all known for foreign trios...gre-no-li, and later the dutch trio...and the capello squads had boban, dejan, weah, desailly...not exactly uni-or bi-national. admittedly, those squads were mostly italian, but they had different "tongues" that were translated nicely and coalesced.

the more recent squads, which have won everything, from domestic league and cup to the cl, super cup and club world cup, some of those multiple times...very diverse, much more diverse...maybe you will argue their main large european counterparts have diversified so much as well, that it is a wash, but then that is kind of a different debate, regardless, i don't think milan's problem this season was too many countries, or else the success achieved in the recent past would never had happened as consistently and thoroughly as it did.

plus, of those players you listed, ba, simic, and gourcuff have hardly played at all this season, and kalac is a keeper, and janks has been plagued by injuries, so those examples are pretty bad...:D

regardless, this is getting way off-topic, anyways.

oh, and i wouldn't count milan out of the cl just quite yet...;)

[gmonn]

And he still doesn't get it.

Teso, look at it this way. Aesthetics are not entirely subjective. Our aesthetic instincts are developed by evolution for a purpose. What is beautiful is desirable, and what is desirable is desirable for specific purposes. We are equipped by millions of years of evolution to forgo numbers and be instinctively attracted to the most beneficial things we see. Now I'm not saying Torres is better than Rooney because his face is prettier. I'm talking "footballistically."

[int86]

what about zlatan??? he is clearly underrated. he has done some amazing things for ajax and sweden.

http://www.ifutbal.com/videos/220/zlatan-ibrahimovic-is-magic-%28best-football-player%29-.html

to me he is a contender

[Twix]

what about zlatan??? he is clearly underrated. he has done some amazing things for ajax and sweden.

http://www.ifutbal.com/videos/220/zlatan-ibrahimovic-is-magic-%28best-football-player%29-.html

to me he is a contender
He's a choker. Good player, though.

[kingkong1]

Plus Zidane's record in key moments is not that great. He is incorrectly labeled a clutch player but his overall record states differentlyAin't that good enough?:


1998 World Cup

During France's second match of the first round, Zidane received a red card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misconduct_%28football%29) and a two-game suspension in a 4-0 win over Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia_national_football_team) after he stomped on Saudi defender Fuad Amin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuad_Amin). Reports from people close to Zidane stated that Amin had provoked him verbally. After netting in the penalty shootout in the quarter-final against Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_national_football_team), he scored his two other goals of the tournament off headers in the first half of the final against Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_national_football_team) as France won the match 3-0 and obtained their first World Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup).
2000 European Championship

Zidane helped his team reach the Euro 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_2000) final with inspired play and important goals. He scored a direct free kick in the quarter-final against Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_national_football_team), along with a controversial golden goal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_goal) penalty in the semi-finals against Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_national_football_team). France went on to defeat Italy in the final, thus becoming the first team to hold both the World Cup and the European Championship since West Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_national_football_team) in 1974. Subsequently, France were ranked first in the world by FIFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA).

2001 Real Madrid

In 2001, Zidane joined Real Madrid for €76 million, the most expensive transfer fee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_transfer#Highest_transfer_fees) in football history, and signed a four-year contract.
He enjoyed a steady run of success on the individual and team fronts, beginning with a spectacular winning volley in a 2-1 win over Bayer Leverkusen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_Leverkusen) in the 2002 UEFA Champions League final (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_UEFA_Champions_League_Final) in Glasgow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow). The next season, Real Madrid won the European Super Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_UEFA_Super_Cup), and in addition to winning the 2003 Spanish Super Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Super_Cup), Zidane was named the 2003 FIFA World Player of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_FIFA_World_Player_of_the_Year) for the third time, joining Ronaldo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronaldo) as the only other three-time winner of the award.

Euro 2004

Going into Euro 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_2004) as defending champions and heavy favourites, Zidane and his team started strongly as he scored a free kick and penalty in injury-time to defeat England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team) 2-1 in the group stage.

2006 World Cup

Decisive participation, with pass to goal by Henry against Brazil, France runnerup.