Greatest Modern Player ??

[Teso Dos Bichos]

If you responded, then post the link and prove it. If you didn't then either admit it, or shut up and stop demanding of other something that you are unwilling to deliver yourself.

Do a search or read your PM. As I said to you previously stop trying to derail threads with your sniping. If you wish to continue this then you know how to contact me. I'm not going to respond to any further irrelevant shite you post in this thread.

[comme]

Do a search or read your PM. As I said to you previously stop trying to derail threads with your sniping. If you wish to continue this then you know how to contact me. I'm not going to respond to any further irrelevant shite you post in this thread.

I didn't receive any PM or can you not read? I'm not going to do a search for a post that did not exist.

This was the post that first asked the question and after which you went missing again. http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13782041&postcount=43

So are you going to continue to run away from it or not?

[comme]

What's the problem?...

Not my fault if Zidane chose to play within the brain of a football team: and, although a great player I'm sure he is aware of the historical inflation of superior players in the position.

Or you were never informed about the fact that in football up to the late 50's/early 60's teams played with 3 (sometimes 2) defenders and were mainly devoted to attack, and consequently no kid wanted to be a defender but a forward (or at least an offensive midfielder)?

I've got a fair understanding of the evolution of tactics in the game's history.

Besides, if he didn't display the technical finesse of a Zidane or a B. Charlton, he was a hell of efficient central back, and one of the 2 central defenders of ANY team in my modest opinion HAS to be of the 'butcher' style, without having the need of being an 'artist of the ball'.

In 1970, Brazil had the 'butcher' Brito, and it was him (in spite of his extremely physical and even brutal style) who made the Brazilian Team - the most refined football & powerful team ever - have its defense respected.

I'm well aware of the need for that type of defender. It just so happens that there were many better than Charlton.

Even within the modern game I think that there are a host of better options, Kohler, Ayala, Campbell, Cannavaro, Desailly etc

It's not Zidane fault Andrade, Moreno, Meazza, Schiaffino, Di Stéfano, Zizinho, Pelé, Boszik, Didi, Zito, Tostão, Gérson, Beckenbauer, Bobby Charlton, Cruyjff, Zico, Maradona, Platini (all without exception undisputably superior to him) chose to play in the same section of the field :rolleyes: ...That's YMO...

Now tell me, my BS expert (QUIZ):

In a 4-3-3 formation who would be at least the eight players you'd necessarilly have to take from those 18 midfielders cited above in order to insert in 7th or 10th place your (our) Zidane?

You have a different slant on many of those players to me. Very few of them are directly comparable to Zidane as most played different positions.

Andrade (wing-half), Moreno (inside forward), Meazza (inside forward), Schiaffino (inside-forward), Zizinho (inside forward), Pelé (inside forward), Boszik (wing-half, Zito (defensive midfielder), Tostão (forward), Beckenbauer (primarily a libero), Cruyjff (centre forward), Zico (forward).

The players that I put ahead of Zidane in the central attacking midfielder role would be Di Stefano (his deep lying centre forward position is roughly analogous), Maradona, Platini, Charlton, Gullit, Didi. Alex James, Rivera, Masopust, Liedholm may all have a claim. I don't put Gerson on that level.


You, on the other hand, have a history (which you're corroborating right here) of being a good of a story teller LOL ...Teso already gave you an excellent response:Besides, you already 'assessed his legacy':Already done it.

That's my current assessment yes. I think Zidane's position about the real greats will become more apparent with greater perspective.

Respond my QUIZ.Not even if we consider the 1966 World Cup as the main originator of the tactical structure of 'modern' European defensive football? :eek: ...

Jack was essential to his team's defense, as Zidane was essential to his team's midfield too.

However France 98 (differently from England 66) created absolutely NOTHING tactically (and all Zizou did as the 'brain' of that team was to play a great final)!...

Of course JC didn't perform elasticos like Zizou, but he effectively participated of a way more important moment for the development of the game.

JC was at best the 4th most important part of that England defence. If you take away Moore and Banks then he would have been all at sea.

[Perú FC]

My top 11 of the greatest modern players in a lineup
------------------------------- Buffon (Italy) --------------------------------
------------------- Baresi (Italy) ------ Nesta (Italy) -----------------------
Zanetti (Argentina) ------------------------------ Roberto Carlos (Brazil)
----------------------------- Makelele (France) -----------------------------
------ Rivaldo (Brazil) ---- Zidane (France) ----- Ronaldinho (Brazil) --
---------------- Ronaldo (Brazil) --------- Romário (Brazil) ---------------

Bench: Schmeichel (Denmark); Desailly (France), Thuram (France), Cafú (Brazil), Maldini (Italy); Davids (Netherlands), Redondo (Argentina), Figo (Portugal), Laudrup (Denmark); Bergkamp (Netherlands), Batistuta (Argentina), Henry (France).

[Iaquinta]

I'd have Baggio on my team.

[kingkong1]

I've got a fair understanding of the evolution of tactics in the game's history.Great.I'm well aware of the need for that type of defender. It just so happens that there were many better than Charlton.Even within the modern game I think that there are a host of better options, Kohler, Ayala, Campbell, Cannavaro, Desailly etcYeah but only JC was world champion in a team that played a crucial role in the development the defensive football played by your European 'contemporaries'.

He was better off playing the ‘butcher’ for a team that not only won a World Cup but that it’s at the foundation itself of the contemporary European defensive style than a refined Zidane who practically just got known for a righteously acclaimed double-header in WC final in a team that style wise didn't add a mere inch to the game.

And let me in peace with my all-time 11 which is overall excellent, will you?...

The all-time 22 in which JC was included (get back to my original post then) was for a 4-3-3 formation in the case of the bench.

My ideal all-time 11 formation though (and I declared it in that occasion) would adopt a 3-2-5 ‘design’:

***
Yashin

Carlos Alberto…Beckenbauer…Nilton Santos

Didi…Di Stéfano

Garrincha…Puskas…Pelé…Leônidas da Silva...Cruyjff (Maradona)

***

Banks

Djalma Santos…Bobby Moore...Jackie Charlton...Maldini

Bobby Charlton...Gérson...Cruyjff (Maradona)

Stanley Matthews...G. Best...Eusébio

***

Without false modesty, two fantastically beautiful teams.

Nonetheless, JC was more chosen in function of his perfect understanding with Bobby Moore specially in 1966 (I could have even put Domingos da Guia in his place who was technically much better than him and Bobby Moore together but preferred the equilibrium of the historical Brittish duo).

That was a choice motivated by a concrete situation.

But you (and a few others) got envious of my evidently more balanced selection and preferred to keep cherrypicking ‘great’ players in abstract…

Still in my modest opinion they lose to the trio Carlos Alberto-Beckenbauer-Nilton Santos.You have a different slant on many of those players to me. Very few of them are directly comparable to Zidane as most played different positionsAndrade (wing-half), Moreno (inside forward), Meazza (inside forward), Schiaffino (inside-forward), Zizinho (inside forward), Pelé (inside forward), Boszik (wing-half, Zito (defensive midfielder), Tostão (forward), Beckenbauer (primarily a libero), Cruyjff (centre forward), Zico (forward).You keep ‘purposedly trying to mislead’ whoever reads our discussion.

All those guys (with the exception of Moreno & Schiaffino) played midfield.

And its variations - but still midfield.

You’re displaying a very rigid concept of what a midfielder is.

Looks like to you he is a player that just plays in the very middle of the field – his area of influence cannot go – backwards or forward – besides the limits of the big circle …

Besides, that’s not a matter of ‘my slant or ‘your’ slant.

Either the guy is a midfielder or he isn’t.José Leandro Andrade (1 October (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_1) 1901 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901) – died October 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_5), 1957 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957)) was an Uruguayan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay) football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(soccer)) back (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_(football)) and midfielder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder). He was born in Salto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salto,_Uruguay). He won gold medals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_medals) in the 1924 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_at_the_1924_Summer_Olympics) and 1928 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_at_the_1928_Summer_Olympics) Olympic Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games), and was champion with Uruguay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_national_football_team) in the 1930 World Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_FIFA_World_Cup). In club level, he played for Nacional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_Nacional_de_Football), where he won 6 Uruguayan Championships,and 3 cups. He was the first international black football player who played in Continental Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Andrade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Andrade)Giuseppe "Peppino" Meazza (23 August 1910 – 21 August 1979) also known as il "Balilla", Peppin, and sometimes Pepp, was an Italian footballer playing mainly for Inter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internazionale_Milano_F.C.) in the 1930s, scoring 243 goals in 361 games for the club. He is still considered by many to be one of the greatest Italian players of all-time as well as the greatest Italian forward of all time. Hebegan his career as all out striker, but showed his skill and ability by also becoming an accomplished midfielder. He was a great leader with superb shooting, unreal dribbling and an eye for the pass.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Meazza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Meazza)Thomaz Soares da Silva, also known as Zizinho, (September 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_14), 1922 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922) - February 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_7), 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002)) was a Brazilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(soccer)) player, who played as an Attacking midfielder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder#Attacking_midfielder), striker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker) and a winger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder#Winger) for Brazil's national team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_national_football_team). He came to international prominence at the 1950 World Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_World_Cup_1950), where scored two goals. He is noted for his dribbling skills and pace.
In Flamengo, he won state championships in 1942, 1943 and 1944.
Pelé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9) is reported to have said about Zizinho: "He was a complete player. He played in midfield, in attack, he scored goals, he could mark, head and cross”.
He came in 4th place in the IFFHS Brazilian Player of the 20th Century.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizinho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizinho)In his prime, Bozsik was considered the best attacking half-back in the world. He was known for his flawless technique, flair, tactical nous and creativity, although he suffered from a lack of pace. Pelé played as an inside forward, striker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker), and what later became known as the playmaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playmaker) position.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9)
José Ely de Miranda, best known as Zito (born in Roseira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseira), Vale do Paraiba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_do_Paraiba), August 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_18), 1932 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932)) was a Brazilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) footballer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(soccer)) who played in defensive midfield.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zito_(footballer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zito_(footballer))
Full name
Eduardo G. de Andrade (Tostão)
Date of birth
January 25, 1947 (1947-01-25) (age 61)
Place of birth
Belo Horizonte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belo_Horizonte),
Minas Gerais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minas_Gerais), Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil)
Height
1.72 m
Playing position
Second Striker (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Second_Striker&action=edit&redlink=1)/Attacking Midfielder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacking_Midfielder)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tost%C3%A3o (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tost%C3%A3o)Franz Anton Beckenbauer (born September 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11), 1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945)) is a German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(soccer)) coach, manager, and former player (…)
He was a versatile player, who started out as midfielder but adapted to different roles on the pitch. Despite being a defensive player he possessed world class technique and vision. He is often credited as having invented the role of the modern sweeper or libero (SW) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(soccer)_positions#Sweeper.2FLibero_.28SW.29).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Beckenbauer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Beckenbauer)
Full name
Hendrik Johannes Cruijff
Date of birth
April 25, 1947 (1947-04-25) (age 61)
Place of birth
Amsterdam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam), Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands)
Height
1.80 m (5 ft 11 in)
Playing position
Attacking Midfielder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder) / Forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Cruijff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Cruijff)Arthur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Cruijff) Antunes Coimbra (born in March 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_3), 1953 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953)), better known as Zico, is a former Brazilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) footballer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(soccer)) and coach. Often called the White Pelé, he is commonly considered one of the most skilled dribblers and finishers ever and possibly the world's best player of the early 80's[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zico#cite_note-soccernet_WC82-1#cite_note-soccernet_WC82-1). He was also known as one of history's greatest free kick specialists, able to bend the ball with pace and accuracy as well as having an extremely powerful shot. The gifted midfielder was named by Pelé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9) as one of the top 125 greatest living footballers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_100) in March 2004. Also according to Pelé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9), generally considered the best footballer ever, "throughout the years, the one player that came closest to me was Zico".
Zico scored 66 goals in 88 international matches for Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_national_football_team), and represented them in the 1978 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_FIFA_World_Cup), 1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_FIFA_World_Cup) WCshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zico)
A note about your misleading notion of the inside forward:In early 2-3-5 formations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_(football)#2-3-5_.28The_Pyramid.29) the inside-forwards would flank the centre forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_forward) on both sides. With the advent of the "WM" formation, the inside forwards were brought back to become attacking midfielders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacking_midfielder), supplying balls to the centre forward and the two attacking wingers - known as the outside right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outside_right) and outside left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outside_left).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_forward)
On the other hand the attacking half-backs were since the 20’s & through the 30’s/40’s/50’s nothing else than virtual sweepers with attacking potential (almost a la Beckenbauer!), whose area of actuation was undoubtedfully the midfield.The players that I put ahead of Zidane in the central attacking midfielder role would be Di Stefano (his deep lying centre forward position is roughly analogous), Maradona, Platini, Charlton, Gullit, Didi. Alex James, Rivera, Masopust, Liedholm may all have a claim.See?...
You yourself concede that the competition is too tough for Master ZizouI don't put Gerson on that level.Don’t ever repeat that heresy, will you? :eek: …

Gérson was a true ‘monster’ & scored the anthologic 2nd goal against Italy and giving the astounding 40-meter pass to the third goal that guaranteed the 1970 World Cup to Brazil.

Take a look at that!...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_3nRplehGk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_3nRplehGk)

(special attention to minutes 0:40 to 1:05)Gérson, full name Gérson de Oliveira Nunes, (born January 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_11), 1941 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941) in Niterói (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niter%C3%B3i)), nickname Canhotinha de ouro (literally: Golden left foot) is a Brazilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) footballer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(soccer)) who played for Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_national_football_team) in the 1966 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_World_Cup_1966) and 1970 FIFA World Cups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_FIFA_World_Cup).
Gérson played for Botafogo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botafogo_de_Futebol_e_Regatas), Flamengo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clube_de_Regatas_do_Flamengo), São Paulo FC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Paulo_Futebol_Clube) and Fluminense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluminense_Football_Club).
Gérson is considered one of the best passers in World Cup history. Although he didn't play well in 1966, he was the mastermind behind the whole Brazilian national team in the 1970 tournament. He is regarded as the best passer and midfielder in that Cup and the best player in the final against Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_national_football_team).

Kiss his left foot in contrition.That's my current assessment yes. I think Zidane's position about the real greats will become more apparent with greater perspective.Good try at becoming a prophet.

May the angels start blowing the trumpets? :rolleyes: ...JC was at best the 4th most important part of that England defence. If you take away Moore and Banks then he would have been all at sea.That’s why he was my 4th choice in the bench of my All-Time 22 :D …

How great & how poor our Zidane!...

[comme]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Great.Yeah but only JC was world champion in a team that played a crucial role in the development the defensive football played by your European 'contemporaries'.

He was better off playing the ‘butcher’ for a team that not only won a World Cup but that it’s at the foundation itself of the contemporary European defensive style than a refined Zidane who practically just got known for a righteously acclaimed double-header in WC final in a team that style wise didn't add a mere inch to the game.

Nonetheless, JC was more chosen in function of his perfect understanding with Bobby Moore specially in 1966 (I could have even put Domingos da Guia in his place who was technically much better than him and Bobby Moore together but preferred the equilibrium of the historical Brittish duo).

That was a choice motivated by a concrete situation.

But you (and a few others) got envious of my evidently more balanced selection and preferred to keep cherrypicking ‘great’ players in abstract…


Fine, so you were picking Charlton not for his actual ability, but for his understanding with Moore?

Interesting that you demonstrated pragmatism there, but went for a 2 man midfield of Didi and Di Stefano, but anyway that's your choice.


[
You keep ‘purposedly trying to mislead’ whoever reads our discussion.

[FONT=Verdana]All those guys (with the exception of Moreno & Schiaffino) played midfield.

And its variations - but still midfield.

You’re displaying a very rigid concept of what a midfielder is.

Looks like to you he is a player that just plays in the very middle of the field – his area of influence cannot go – backwards or forward – besides the limits of the big circle …

Besides, that’s not a matter of ‘my slant or ‘your’ slant.

Either the guy is a midfielder or he isn’t.

There are different types of midfielders, and I choose not to compare all of them to each other. If you want to compare the style of Pele to that of Makelele, and can't realise that they play totally different roles then that is your problem.

Zidane was primarily a central-attacking midfielder, who sometimes played on the left. I categorise him alongside similar players in their role eg Maradona, Platini etc


A note about your misleading notion of the inside forward:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_forward)
On the other hand the attacking half-backs were since the 20’s & through the 30’s/40’s/50’s nothing else than virtual sweepers with attacking potential (almost a la Beckenbauer!), whose area of actuation was undoubtedfully the midfield.See?...
You yourself concede that the competition is too tough for Master Zizou

Most of those players did not play in a WM formation though!! So bringing up the role of an inside forward in the WM formation is irrelevant. Pele did not play the inside-forward role in the same style that Alex James played it originally in the WM.

Equally half-backs roles varied. Andrade for instance played in the old 2-3-5 system where the wing-halves (he was a left-half) played as markers of the opposing wingers. That's like trying to compare Ashley Cole to Zidane! Utterly pointless.

Boszik was a midfield organiser, he was not an outright attacking midfielder.


Gérson was a true ‘monster’ & scored the anthologic 2nd goal against Italy and giving the astounding 40-meter pass to the third goal that guaranteed the 1970 World Cup to Brazil.

Take a look at that!...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_3nRplehGk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_3nRplehGk)

(special attention to minutes 0:40 to 1:05)

I'm well aware of Gerson, and what he could do. Posting footage that I've seen a million times before will not convince me. Great player that he was I don't see him on the level of others mentioned. I'd be happy for you to explain more to me about his greatness though.


Good try at becoming a prophet.


I do my best.

[kingkong1]

Fine, so you were picking Charlton not for his actual ability, but for his understanding with Moore?

Interesting that you demonstrated pragmatism there, but went for a 2 man midfield of Didi and Di Stefano, but anyway that's your choice.More pragmatism though.

That team could take the risk of playing with two unprotected offensive midfielders (typical of Didi & Di Stéfano's epoch - who by the way even played that way at Real Madrid in the 60's; in the Brz NT too Didi and Zito protagonized a very effective 4-2-4 in 58, with 'boring' Zagallo trying to help them in the midfield :p thereby creating the 4-3-3). Notice that even the side defenders (C. Alberto & N. Santos) would be very offensive.

With such infantry (Garrincha, Puskas, Pelé, Leônidas, Maradona), 'backed up' by those offensive midfielders and side defenders, that team for sure would take many goals (Yashin's & Beckenbauer's problem) but also would score 3 or 4 times more.There are different types of midfielders, and I choose not to compare all of them to each other. If you want to compare the style of Pele to that of Makelele, and can't realise that they play totally different roles then that is your problem.

Zidane was primarily a central-attacking midfielder, who sometimes played on the left. I categorise him alongside similar players in their role eg Maradona, Platini etc'A central-attacking midfielder, who sometimes played on the left'.

I'd certainly add Pelé, Tostão, Gérson, Rivelino to that list.Most of those players did not play in a WM formation though!! So bringing up the role of an inside forward in the WM formation is irrelevant. Pele did not play the inside-forward role in the same style that Alex James played it originally in the WM.Half of them (Andrade, Meazza, Alex James, Zizinho, Boszik, Di Stéfano, Didi [in 50/54]) did.

Either the WM or its 'inversion' (the WW, which is just an adaptation of the former)Equally half-backs roles varied. Andrade for instance played in the old 2-3-5 system where the wing-halves (he was a left-half) played as markers of the opposing wingers. That's like trying to compare Ashley Cole to Zidane! Utterly pointless.Any 'All-Time 11s' is pointlessBoszik was a midfield organiser, he was not an outright attacking midfielder. What matters to our discussion is that he was a midfielder. Period.

I'm well aware of Gerson, and what he could do. Posting footage that I've seen a million times before will not convince me. Man,

God appears to you, and still you deny IT.

Congrats! Keep with your Zidane (BTW who cares) that I'll stick to my 'Canhotinha de Ouro', MVP of the best World Cup final of all times.Great player that he was I don't see him on the level of others mentioned. I'd be happy for you to explain more to me about his greatness though.More than it was 'explained' by the article in question? Repeating it to you:Gérson, full name Gérson de Oliveira Nunes, (born January 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_11), 1941 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941) in Niterói (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niter%C3%B3i)), nickname Canhotinha de ouro (literally: Golden left foot) is a Brazilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) footballer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29) who played for Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_national_football_team) in the 1966 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_World_Cup_1966) and 1970 FIFA World Cups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_FIFA_World_Cup).
Gérson played for Botafogo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botafogo_de_Futebol_e_Regatas), Flamengo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clube_de_Regatas_do_Flamengo), São Paulo FC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Paulo_Futebol_Clube) and Fluminense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluminense_Football_Club).
Gérson is considered one of the best passers in World Cup history (...) he was the mastermind behind the whole Brazilian national team in the 1970 tournament. He is regarded as the best passer and midfielder in that Cup and the best player in the final against Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_national_football_team).Need more? Go read.
I do my best.Try harder :D ...

[comme]

More pragmatism though.

That team could take the risk of playing with two unprotected offensive midfielders (typical of Didi & Di Stéfano's epoch - who by the way even played that way at Real Madrid in the 60's; in the Brz NT too Didi and Zito protagonized a very effective 4-2-4 in 58, with 'boring' Zagallo trying to help them in the midfield :p thereby creating the 4-3-3). Notice that even the side defenders (C. Alberto & N. Santos) would be very offensive.

With such infantry (Garrincha, Puskas, Pelé, Leônidas, Maradona), 'backed up' by those offensive midfielders and side defenders, that team for sure would take many goals (Yashin's & Beckenbauer's problem) but also would score 3 or 4 times more.'A central-attacking midfielder, who sometimes played on the left'.

Didi had Zito though, and he had a four man back line with Djalma Santos. Your team would never get the ball back if it lost it. You might as well play Matthews at right-back.

I'd certainly add Pelé, Tostão, Gérson, Rivelino to that list.

So in your opinion who were the attackers in the Brazil 1970 team? Jairzinho was a right-sided attacking midfielder. Clodoaldo a defensive midfielder. I know that these were the 5 x 10, but there were no attackers?

Half of them (Andrade, Meazza, Alex James, Zizinho, Boszik, Di Stéfano, Didi [in 50/54]) did.

Either the WM or its 'inversion' (the WW, which is just an adaptation of the former)

Andrade was a half-back who never played WM. Uruguay were still using the pyramid when he retired. Boszik was a half-back not an inside forward. Didi and James I myself put ahead of Zidane. Di Stefano played as a centre-forward not an inside forward, but I included him anyway.

What matters to our discussion is that he was a midfielder. Period.

Luis Figo is a midfielder, Claude Makelele is a midfielder. Apples and oranges.


Man,

God appears to you, and still you deny IT.

Congrats! Keep with your Zidane (BTW who cares) that I'll stick to my 'Canhotinha de Ouro', MVP of the best World Cup final of all times.More than it was 'explained' by the article in question? Repeating it to you:Need more? Go read.
...

I just thought that with your immense wisdom you might have a little more to add than a wiki article.

[kingkong1]

Didi had Zito though, and he had a four man back line with Djalma Santos.Didi had Zito in the NT, Didi had Di Stéfano in Real, what's your point?...

Did anyone say here Didi played alone?...

A four-man line would work for any traditional & contemporary academic team.

But in an All-Time 11 would mean you’d have to take either Garrincha or Pelé or Puskas or Leônidas da Silva or Maradona from that team, and you don't want it, do you?...

It'd be covering the head and uncovering the toes.

Worse: uncovering the brain.

If you prefer the 'toes', hats off to you!...

Your team would never get the ball back if it lost it. You might as well play Matthews at right-back.

As I said it would allow kilos of goals but would score tons of them. Besides with those guys in the line-up, they'd hardly 'lose' a ball :p...

In the 'meanwhile', for each goal accepted they'd score 4 or 5...

So in your opinion who were the attackers in the Brazil 1970 team? Jairzinho was a right-sided attacking midfielder. Clodoaldo a defensive midfielder. I know that these were the 5 x 10, but there were no attackers?

The midfielders! ;)...

Pelé, Tostão, Gerson, Rivelino, Paulo César.

‘Modern football’ was already being played – Dutch style at its best.

It was not called Clockwork Orange because individual brilliance overshadowed their own superb tactics.

Jairzinho was the only one you could frankly call a pure forward.

Andrade was a half-back who never played WM. Uruguay were still using the pyramid when he retired.Still: 'pyramid', 'WM' or not, you're just too stuck with those classifications. You simply cannot deny he also played as a midfielder, period.

If a coach had to choose between him and Zidane as a mid, bye bye Zidane.

And that's what's at stake, not if Andrade played the 'Pyramid', the 'Zigurat' or the 'WTC'...Andrade - 1 October (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_1)1901 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901) – died October 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_5), 1957 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957)) was an Uruguayan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay) football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29) back (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_%28football%29) and midfielder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder). He was born in Salto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salto,_Uruguay). He won gold medals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_medals) in the 1924 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_at_the_1924_Summer_Olympics) and 1928 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_at_the_1928_Summer_Olympics)Olympic Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games), and was champion with Uruguay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_national_football_team) in the 1930 World Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_FIFA_World_Cup). In club level, he played for Nacional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_Nacional_de_Football), where he won 6 Uruguayan Championships,and 3 cups. He was the first international black football player who played in Continental Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe)..Boszik was a half-back not an inside forward.There you go again :rolleyes: ...

Once and for all, Comme: geniuses don't have a 'position' - or at least don't limit themselves to one (in any epoch of the game).

Not even the right-wing Garrincha.

In 1962, in the absence of Pelé, he covered all sectors of his team, specially playmaking.

In that same Cup Pelé scored a goal against Mexico that only a right-wing would be apt to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjTfF3tvybQDi Stefano played as a centre-forward not an inside forward, but I included him anyway.You didn't 'include' him: he himself as the genius of football that he was included himself in and became a master of the midfield.Luis Figo is a midfielder, Claude Makelele is a midfielder. Apples and oranges.For you there are no midfielders, right Comme?

Just Zidane.

The rest are 'inside forwards' LOL...I just thought that with your immense wisdom you might have a little more to add than a wiki article.Wiki articles obviously display established common-place ideas & generally because of that in general they are correct: Wiki deals with those notions that are of public domain & and that everybody knows since one's born. Summing it up: eternal almanach trivialities).

Too trivial I agree for your wide-range horizons.

We'd need a whole Dictionary of Philosophy in order to disect with all exactitude your myriad of midfield categories and subcategories...

[comme]

Didi had Zito in the NT, Didi had Di Stéfano in Real, what's your point?...

Did anyone say here Didi played alone?...

No, but there is a marked difference between playing Didi and Zito together, as opposed to Didi and Di Stefano. For starters Di Stefano hated Didi, and drove him out of Madrid, that is well documented.

Secondly Di Stefano did not play with Didi in a two man midfield. They had Zarraga there to provide some steel. Big difference.


The midfielders! ;)...

Pelé, Tostão, Gerson, Rivelino, Paulo César.

‘Modern football’ was already being played – Dutch style at its best.

It was not called Clockwork Orange because individual brilliance overshadowed their own superb tactics.

Jairzinho was the only one you could frankly call a pure forward.

Jairzinho was not even a pure forward though. He was an outside right. Pele and Tostao were forwards who often dropped deep.


Still: 'pyramid', 'WM' or not, you're just too stuck with those classifications. You simply cannot deny he also played as a midfielder, period.

If a coach had to choose between him and Zidane as a mid, bye bye Zidane.

And that's what's at stake, not if Andrade played the 'Pyramid', the 'Zigurat' or the 'WTC'....There you go again :rolleyes: ...

Once and for all, Comme: geniuses don't have a 'position' - or at least don't limit themselves to one (in any epoch of the game).


Ok then let's have a team with Garrincha, Matthews, Figo, Jose Augusto and Kurt Hamrin in the midfield. After all they didn't have positions. Then see how well they'd function together.

Andrade was a master at his role, of left half. Among central (non-attacking midfielders) I rate him extremely highly, but he did not play the same role as Zidane.


In that same Cup Pelé scored a goal against Mexico that only a right-wing would be apt to:

Thanks, I'm lucky enough to have that game on DVD. But thanks for positing it anyway.

[
For you there are no midfielders, right Comme?[/FONT]

Too trivial I agree for your wide-range horizons.[/FONT]

We'd need a whole Dictionary of Philosophy in order to disect with all exactitude your myriad of midfield categories and subcategories...

There are many different positions, but I'm content with just four main categories of midfielder. Attacking, central, left and right.

Then you can have some reasonable comparisons, otherwise you might as well compare Yashin to Muller.

[kingkong1]

No, but there is a marked difference between playing Didi and Zito together, as opposed to Didi and Di Stefano. I’m really anxious to know it (other than the fact that obviously Zito is a person and Di Stéfano another: but I trust you, there must be more to it).For starters Di Stefano hated Didi, and drove him out of Madrid, that is well documented.Bad start...

Not even Wiki would bother with such gossiping (although it actually happened).

Any paparazzo magazine of the epoch would stamp your top-secret ‘information’ in its first pages (rolleyes) … Secondly Di Stefano did not play with Didi in a two man midfield. They had Zarraga there to provide some steel. Big difference.Big sheet.

If in Real Di & Didi had Zarrate in the Brz NT Didi & Zito had Zagallo.

I know: now you are going to elaborate on the profound differences between Zarrate and Zagallo.

By the way, lots of ‘Z’s, right?...

Nowadays we have Zidane (better than your Zarrate although way behind another ‘Z’ – Zico, of course).

At least you concede Di Stéfano was 'also' a mid...

Zzzz…

Let me sleep, will you?...Jairzinho was not even a pure forward though.Jairzinho was a pure (centre) forward: his size and explosion easily denounce it: he didn’t even have the physical completion of a wing. With Garrincha’s retirement though he was dislocated to the right-wing. You know, those geniuses: they love to play in all positions…(Jairzinho) was an outside right.Geezzz, again…

Man, you’re good at those names, huh?...Pele and Tostao were forwards who often dropped deepNope.

They were number 10s or pontas-de-lança (that’s a good name for you to learn: it means ‘lance tip’ in Brazil, typical denomination of the top-of-line playmakers) ‘who (from the midfield on) often dropped deep’.

By the way, the position ‘number 10’ was INVENTED by Pelé: Number 10 and Pelé have the same meaning.

In the following clip there must be about 60 goals by Pelé: in 80% of them he, as good Number 10 (or ponta-de-lança), not necessarilly in that order, departs from the great circle, dribbles, serves, receives, dribbles again and scores.

http://media.putfile.com/ImmortalUNCUT

The same with Tostão (who along with Zico also deserved the title of white Pelé).

A typical example of a Number 10 evolving on a field:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hid80MyFJcs&feature=related

Ok then let's have a team with Garrincha, Matthews, Figo, Jose Augusto and Kurt Hamrin in the midfield. After all they didn't have positions. Then see how well they'd function together.Why not?...

Just a ‘small’ correction though: Figo, J.Augusto and Hamrin were not football geniuses (at least in the same level S. Matthews and Garrincha were – i.e., gods).

Anyway congrats, let’s concede it: you, almost got me there, tricky boy…

Matthews & Garrincha in the midfield, what a mouse trap, huh?...

You must have spent hours & hours cherrypicking that, mustn’t you?...

But we could have Garrincha in the middle and Matthews helping the midfield ‘a la Zagallo’ on the right, why not: but please choose with a little more criterion the three other ‘geniuses’, will you?...

After that almost-wicked trick I could see you radicalize & forming your ‘All-Time 11’ just with goalies (which is not too far from the conception of ‘modern football’ anyway) :p …Andrade was a master at his role, of left half. Among central (non-attacking midfielders) I rate him extremely highly, but he did not play the same role as Zidane.’Role’ is dictated by the concrete situations to which any great player easily gets adapted to.

Zidane & Andrade had several, and naturally they had to be different: more then innate, they were acquired.

Consequently any talented central mid can also be ‘attacking’ and/or ‘defensive’: and not just ‘tampooning’ the great circle, like ludicrous (but efficient) Zinho in 94.

Geniuses (of different levels, but geniuses) like Andrade & Zidane instinctively adapt themselves to those situations.

And Andrade & Zidane were no exception.There are many different positions, but I'm content with just four main categories of midfielder. Attacking, central, left and right.For a top-of-line, a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose.Then you can have some reasonable comparisons, otherwise you might as well compare Yashin to Muller.Why not?...

The King himself will take the trouble in this pic of symbolically binding them to you in ONE:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6622/notbetternorworstjustdihe5.jpg

PS: You can copy it to your archive :D ...

[Tribune]

Questions :

For KingKong : in your generous list of midfielder, why did you left Kubala out ?

For Comme : you listed Di Stefano, Maradona, Platini, Didi, Gullit as superior to Zidane. Added that Liedholm, James, Rivera, Masopust may have a claim.
Where do players like Netzer, Rivelino, Bochini and M.Laudrup stand ?

[kingkong1]

Questions :

For KingKong : in your generous list of midfielder, why did you left Kubala out ?Nobody is perfect.

For Comme : you listed Di Stefano, Maradona, Platini, Didi, Gullit as superior to Zidane. Added that Liedholm, James, Rivera, Masopust may have a claim.
Where do players like Netzer, Rivelino, Bochini and M.Laudrup stand ?And many and many others.

As I said, the 100 best players of all times are undoubtedly geniuses, and Zidane, in my opiniojn, as 44th to 66th (overall) is in a priviledged position :).

[comme]

Questions :

For Comme : you listed Di Stefano, Maradona, Platini, Didi, Gullit as superior to Zidane. Added that Liedholm, James, Rivera, Masopust may have a claim.
Where do players like Netzer, Rivelino, Bochini and M.Laudrup stand ?

I ought to have added Luis Suarez to the list of those on the same level as well. I see Rivelino at this level as well.

Netzer and Laudrup both slightly behind. Netzer was unlucky to miss out through injury on many of Germany's finest moments, but he was stellar in 1972 and with BMG. Laudrup was unlucky to miss the 1992 Denmark victory, but he was one of my favourites and was top level for years.

Bochini I have at least one or two levels below, due to his minimal national team contribution. Outstanding player for Independiente though.

[Moishe]

Bochini I have at least one or two levels below, due to his minimal national team contribution. Outstanding player for Independiente though.

You can't really hold his national team contribution against him. Look at the midfield players he had to contend with starting Maradona. My guess is that if he was any other nationality he likely would have been a starter or at least played significant minutes.

[comme]

I’m really anxious to know it (other than the fact that obviously Zito is a person and Di Stéfano another: but I trust you, there must be more to it).Bad start...

Not even Wiki would bother with such gossiping (although it actually happened).

Any paparazzo magazine of the epoch would stamp your top-secret ‘information’ in its first pages (rolleyes) … Big sheet.

It's fairly fundamental though, gossip or not. Didi and Di Stefano did not get on.

If in Real Di & Didi had Zarrate in the Brz NT Didi & Zito had Zagallo.

I know: now you are going to elaborate on the profound differences between Zarrate and Zagallo.

Zarraga. Not Zarrate. Zarate plays up front for Lazio.

Zarraga was a holding midfielder or defensive player. Zagallo was an outside left who dropped into midfield. Huge difference.


Man, you’re good at those names, huh?...Nope.

They were number 10s or pontas-de-lança (that’s a good name for you to learn: it means ‘lance tip’ in Brazil, typical denomination of the top-of-line playmakers) ‘who (from the midfield on) often dropped deep’.

Thanks, I'm familiar with the term.

tpmazembe provided this explanation some time ago

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5464468&postcount=36

Remarkably the Brazilians have 7 terms for what I would try and classify in two (attacking midfielder or forward). And you complain that I have too many different names?

By the way, the position ‘number 10’ was INVENTED by Pelé: Number 10 and Pelé have the same meaning.

No he didn't. Number 10 simply means inside left in the classical British system of numbers. Meazza was a number 10. Pele may define the role, but he didn't invent it.



’Role’ is dictated by the concrete situations to which any great player easily gets adapted to.

Zidane & Andrade had several, and naturally they had to be different: more then innate, they were acquired.

Consequently any talented central mid can also be ‘attacking’ and/or ‘defensive’: and not just ‘tampooning’ the great circle, like ludicrous (but efficient) Zinho in 94.

Geniuses (of different levels, but geniuses) like Andrade & Zidane instinctively adapt themselves to those situations.

And Andrade & Zidane were no exception.For a top-of-line, a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose.Why not?...


You need to have certain attributes to play in certain positions. Zidane might have made a good defensive midfielder, but he did not play that role at any level.

Andrade did. But Andrade never played as an inside forward in old school terminology. The play makers in that team were Scarone and Cea.

I have absolutely no idea what tampooning means.

[comme]

You can't really hold his national team contribution against him. Look at the midfield players he had to contend with starting Maradona. My guess is that if he was any other nationality he likely would have been a starter or at least played significant minutes.

No I don't hold it against him. It's just an area in which other players out strip him.

Like for instance Glenn Hoddle. One of the most gifted and elegant players the game has produced, but he only won 54 caps for England. Platini said Hoddle should have won 150. I count against Hoddle on that basis.

[gmonn]

Consequently any talented central mid can also be ‘attacking’ and/or ‘defensive’: and not just ‘tampooning’ the great circle, like ludicrous (but efficient) Zinho in 94.


I have absolutely no idea what tampooning means.

Knowing KK as both earthy and creative, I'd say he was comparing a certain midfielder's function to that of a tampon. :)

[kingkong1]

Knowing KK as both earthy and creativeHave we been introduced before? :confused: ...I'd say he was comparing a certain midfielder's function to that of a tampon. Tampoon.

For Comme not knowing what a tampoon is means he's never been married to or had a long-term relationship with only one woman, it looks like.

On the contrary, as a 'midfield' analyst he reveals to be quite permissive and in a footballistic Kama Sutra he orgiastically proposes distinct names for all the complex 'positions' those guys exhibit on the field.

I just modestly suggested another one :D ...

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/7343/tampoon4db5.jpg