Greatest Modern Player ??

[it4lian]

I would have to say Henry. I know a lot of ya'll think there are better players and I am inclined to agree, but I still think he helped Arsenal more than anyone else could have (well Bergkamp too...) and he was just a great person to do that job for them. He hasn't exactly "flourished" at Barca which I saddens me, but I am certain he'll play like a more-than-world-class player again with time. So Henry gets my vote, not cause he is the best player, but I think he helped his team the most.

I'm a huge Arsenal fan so I might be a little biased =P

[comme]

Coincidently or not though they are not too distant from 99% of the SA or European expert's lists of all-timers.

The name of Zidane will only show in 1% of those lists (I won't take the trouble of citing them now, that's too well known).

The only contemporary player that has its name guaranteed in 50% of those lists is Maldini.

Zidane - & that doesn't mean he is not a great player - is simply ignored by the guys who know football.

He'll only start being cited when you consult the expert's last 15 years match-ups.

And it's under this realistic perspective that I love Maître Zizou as a football player: along with Romário & R9, I see him as the most decisive personality of the globe in contemporary football (1993-2006).



I think this is a combination of both wrong information and being willfully misleading.

As a sample of the following summary of lists

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/bestbest.html

Zidane is included in:

World Soccer's 100 best ever (suggested by the magazine)
World Soccer's 100 best ever (selected by readers)
Placar's 100 Craques do Século
Pacar's Os 100 Craques das Copas
AFS top 100

So that's 5 out of 13, or about 40%. Now on top of that he was was the winner of UEFA's jubilee poll of the best players of the previous 50 years and the BBC's poll of the same period.

So that's 7 out of 15 of which I'm aware.

Additionally almost all the lists in which he is not included were compiled in 1999 or earlier. So, you're not getting the whole of his career. It would be like pointing out that Ronaldinho doesn't feature in them, that's hardly his fault is it?

[kingkong1]

I think this is a combination of both wrong information and being willfully misleading.

As a sample of the following summary of lists

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/bestbest.html

Zidane is included in:

World Soccer's 100 best ever (suggested by the magazine)
World Soccer's 100 best ever (selected by readers)
Placar's 100 Craques do Século
Pacar's Os 100 Craques das Copas
AFS top 100

So that's 5 out of 13, or about 40%. Now on top of that he was was the winner of UEFA's jubilee poll of the best players of the previous 50 years and the BBC's poll of the same period.

So that's 7 out of 15 of which I'm aware.

Additionally almost all the lists in which he is not included were compiled in 1999 or earlier. So, you're not getting the whole of his career. It would be like pointing out that Ronaldinho doesn't feature in them, that's hardly his fault is it?You're wrong, wrong, wrong.

You forgot KingKong's 100 Best Ever! :p ...

Sorry, you're the one who is conveying 'wrong information and being willfully misleading' with your rocambolesque 'miscellaneous' of '100s Best Ever' :rolleyes: ...

You forget that I didn't place Zidane among the 22 that I consider the 'gods' of football, but I put him among the 44-66, which is still quite an honourable place within 'your' 100 Best Ever.

Besides I was not talking about the All-Time 100s or All-Time 1000s, but about the All-Time 11 lists which periodically FIFA and the main magazines of the world organize.

He's not there & will never be in the devastating majority of them.

And in my opinion not even in the All-Time 22.

Neither him nor Ronaldinho.

Yes, they are great.

But - forget it - there's simply no room for them there :o ...

[comme]

You're wrong, wrong, wrong.

You forgot KingKong's 100 Best Ever! :p ...

Sorry, you're the one who is conveying 'wrong information and being willfully misleading' with your rocambolesque 'miscellaneous' of '100s Best Ever' :rolleyes: ...

You forget that I didn't place Zidane among the 22 that I consider the 'gods' of football, but I put him among the 44-66, which is still quite an honourable place within 'your' 100 Best Ever.

Besides I was not talking about the All-Time 100s or All-Time 1000s, but about the All-Time 11 lists which periodically FIFA and the main magazines of the world organize.

He's not there & will never be in the devastating majority of them.

And in my opinion not even in the All-Time 22.

Neither him nor Ronaldinho.

Yes, they are great.

But - forget it - there's simply no room for them there :o ...

Well no major such teams have been done since the turn of the century to my knowledge, so which ones are you talking about?

In addition did you not choose Jack Charlton as one of your all-time 22 at one point?

[phil80]

My top 11 of the greatest modern players in a lineup-



Ronaldo......Rivaldo.....Romario
Ronaldinho...Zidane....Figo
..............Makelele
R.Carlos.....Nesta......Maldini
...............Buffon

this team wouldnt work in real life (too attacking), but more of just a collection of the players in some sort of lineup

[Dr. Know]

My top 11 of the greatest modern players in a lineup-



Ronaldo......Rivaldo.....Romario
Ronaldinho...Zidane....Figo
..............Makelele
R.Carlos.....Nesta......Maldini
...............Buffon

this team wouldnt work in real life (too attacking), but more of just a collection of the players in some sort of lineup

No Redondo?

[phil80]

I forgot about Redondo, incredible technical player... I would possibly swap him for Figo, which would also give the team more balance

[kingkong1]

Well no major such teams have been done since the turn of the century to my knowledge, so which ones are you talking about?(Running away from the main question, huh?) :rolleyes: ...

At the 'turn of the century' Romário, Bebeto, Aldair, Mauro Silva, Ronaldo, Henry and Zidane had already been world champions, and Baggio, Hagi, Stoichkov, Ronaldinho, Bergkamp etc (many of them since 1990) had already given their cards.

Why weren't they in those ('11' or 22') lists up to 2000 then?...In addition did you not choose Jack Charlton as one of your all-time 22 at one point?Wayyyyy more feasable than your Zidane among the same 22.

Specially if we aknowledge that competition among midfielders has always been way higher than among defenders.

Don't forget also that your so dear 'modern' defensive football (and finesse is not one of its specialties) had its roots in that at the same rough & technical defense commanded by Charlton & Moore.

Don't spit on the plate you ate (chinese proverb).

On time:

Thanks for remembering all my posts in such detail.

Took it as a commend :D ...

[kingkong1]

My top 11 of the greatest modern players in a lineup-



Ronaldo......Rivaldo.....Romario
Ronaldinho...Zidane....Figo
..............Makelele
R.Carlos.....Nesta......Maldini
...............Buffon


this team wouldnt work in real life (too attacking), but more of just a collection of the players in some sort of lineup


Let's try a 'real' team, then (based on yours):

Ronaldo....Romário
Ronaldinho....Zidane....Rivaldo
Dunga
Maldini....Aldair....Baresi....Jorginho
Buffon

(with Redondo and Henry entering at any moment)

[comme]

(Running away from the main question, huh?) :rolleyes: ...

I'm not running away from everything, but you have a history of these mis-using these ll-time XIs. You used ones before Paolo Maldini had begun his career as evidence that Nilton Santos was better than him.

At the 'turn of the century' Romário, Bebeto, Aldair, Mauro Silva, Ronaldo, Henry and Zidane had already been world champions, and Baggio, Hagi, Stoichkov, Ronaldinho, Bergkamp etc (many of them since 1990) had already given their cards.

Why weren't they in those ('11' or 22') lists up to 2000 then?...Wayyyyy more feasable than your Zidane among the same 22.

Actually Zidane was selected in the FIFA "world cup dream team" of 2002, for all timers. I'm not trying to argue that he's a top ten or all-time eleven player, but you are taking it a bit far.

[Specially if we aknowledge that competition among midfielders has always been way higher than among defenders.

Don't forget also that your 'modern' defensive football (and finesse was not one of its specialties) had its roots in that defense commanded by Charlton & Moore.

Don't spit on the plate you ate (chinese proverb).

On time:

Thanks for remembering all my posts in such detail.

Took it as a commend :D ...

I just remember the particularly crazy ones. Given that Jack Charlton wouldn't make a top 50 from the British isles I think you have him judged slightly too highly.

Billy Wright (for example) would be a much better choice.

[kingkong1]

I'm not running away from everything, but you have a history of these mis-using these ll-time XIs. You used ones before Paolo Maldini had begun his career as evidence that Nilton Santos was better than him.In first place I didn't place JC as an 'all-time 11', but in the bench of that team.

Besides I also cited polls before Maldini (70's to 90's) along with others after him (and of course, if the former tended to favour N. Santos, the latter - specially the ones organized by European & Italian magazines - for sure would tend to be biased in favour a contemporary Old World player.

So here you start out by misquoting old posts of mine just in order to escape a discussion you evidently lost. Actually Zidane was selected in the FIFA "world cup dream team" of 2002, for all timers.Never questioned Zidane's value.

Scoring 2 goals against Brazil in a WC final (even playing at home) is not for anyone.

FIFA in 2002 though was just under a momentary impact in view of that particular achievement.I just remember the particularly crazy ones. Given that Jack Charlton wouldn't make a top 50 from the British isles I think you have him judged slightly too highly.

Billy Wright (for example) would be a much better choice.That's too relative.

Charlton was world champion.

Billy Wright won nothing.

Gilmar is listed as the best Brz goalie of all times, and he was terrible.

But he'd take goals smiling, and nothing would shatter him.

Besides he played for Brazil in the right moment (58, 62 WCs).

The same for Jack.

But...don't use him as a smoke curtain to run away from the topic, will you? :)

[Teso Dos Bichos]

My top 11 of the greatest modern players in a lineup-

That would be an interesting discussion for another thread. It has been a while since I can remember doing one and there are a fair few current players who would merit serious consideration.

[comme]

In first place I didn't place JC as an 'all-time 11', but in the bench of that team.

Ok, so you are effectively saying that he is a top 22 player ever, and that Zidane is a 44-66 player.

I actually put Zidane as between the 7th to 10th best attacking midfielder ever.

Besides I also cited polls before Maldini (70's to 90's) along with others after him (and of course, if the former tended to favour N. Santos, the latter - specially the ones organized by European & Italian magazines - for sure would tend to be biased in favour a contemporary Old World player.

So here you start out by misquoting old posts of mine just in order to escape a discussion you evidently lost. Never questioned Zidane's value.

I'm not trying to escape anything. You have a history of using polls before someone had begun their career as evidence that another player was better than him. Equally I think we will only be able to properly judge Zidane in a few years time when we can adequately assess his leagacy.


Charlton was world champion.

Billy Wright won nothing.

Gilmar is listed as the best Brz goalie of all times, and he was terrible.

But he'd take goals smiling, and nothing would shatter him.

Besides he played for Brazil in the right moment (58, 62 WCs).

The same for Jack.

But...don't use him as a smoke curtain to run away from the topic, will you? :)

Run away from what? Ask me a question and I'll answer it.

Simply winning a WC is not alone to be the best ever, and Jack Charlton does not deserve to hang with this company.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Equally I think we will only be able to properly judge Zidane in a few years time when we can adequately assess his leagacy.

We can do so now.

[comme]

We can do so now.

Distance provides perspective. In a few years time it will be easier to judge Zidane against the legends.

BTW if you are going to insist on calling for PMs then try to actually bother to answer them.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

BTW if you are going to insist on calling for PMs then try to actually bother to answer them.

Yet another lie.

"Private Message: Re: Where have you answered it?
Recipients: comme
Yesterday, 08:40 PM"

:rolleyes:


EDIT: Although if you are still using the ignorance feature it might have blocked it. Over to you.

[comme]

Yet another lie.

"Private Message: Re: Where have you answered it?
Recipients: comme
Yesterday, 08:40 PM"

:rolleyes:

My inbox has my last message as Bojendy on 10 November, so either I have to accuse you of being a liar (plausible) or the fact that you are on my ignore list prevents me receiving anything from you.

I get the feeling that whatever your reply was wasn't even worth reading anyway, if you had any response I fail to see why you wouldn't post it up in open forum.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Nothing I can do about your insistence on using the ignorance feature. You claimed I did not respond 9 months ago when I did. You asked for a response to your PM and I delivered, yet again. Perhaps instead of sniping you should simply stick to using your ignorance feature and give everyone, myself included, peace. You know full well why I asked you to take your sniping there. Whining about something that I have no control over is pathetic to say the least. Over to you, again. :rolleyes:

[comme]

Nothing I can do about your insistence on using the ignorance feature. You claimed I did not respond 9 months ago when I did. You asked for a response to your PM and I delivered, yet again. Perhaps instead of sniping you should simply stick to using your ignorance feature and give everyone, myself included, peace. You know full well why I asked you to take your sniping there. Whining about something that I have no control over is pathetic to say the least. Over to you, again. :rolleyes:

If you responded, then post the link and prove it. If you didn't then either admit it, or shut up and stop demanding of other something that you are unwilling to deliver yourself.

[kingkong1]

Ok, so you are effectively saying that he is a top 22 player ever, and that Zidane is a 44-66 player.What's the problem?...

Not my fault if Zidane chose to play within the brain of a football team: and, although a great player I'm sure he is aware of the historical inflation of superior players in the position.

Or you were never informed about the fact that in football up to the late 50's/early 60's teams played with 3 (sometimes 2) defenders and were mainly devoted to attack, and consequently no kid wanted to be a defender but a forward (or at least an offensive midfielder)?...

Besides, if he didn't display the technical finesse of a Zidane or a B. Charlton, he was a hell of efficient central back, and one of the 2 central defenders of ANY team in my modest opinion HAS to be of the 'butcher' style, without having the need of being an 'artist of the ball'.

In 1970, Brazil had the 'butcher' Brito, and it was him (in spite of his extremely physical and even brutal style) who made the Brazilian Team - the most refined football & powerful team ever - have its defense respected.

It's not Zidane fault Andrade, Moreno, Meazza, Schiaffino, Di Stéfano, Zizinho, Pelé, Boszik, Didi, Zito, Tostão, Gérson, Beckenbauer, Bobby Charlton, Cruyjff, Zico, Maradona, Platini (all without exception undisputably superior to him) chose to play in the same section of the field :rolleyes: ...I actually put Zidane as between the 7th to 10th best attacking midfielder ever.That's YMO...

Now tell me, my BS expert (QUIZ):

In a 4-3-3 formation who would be at least the eight players you'd necessarilly have to take from those 18 midfielders cited above in order to insert in 7th or 10th place your (our) Zidane?...

Let's make things easier to you: instead of a 4-3-3 formation, a 4-4-2 one, OK? :cool: ...I'm not trying to escape anything. You have a history of using polls before someone had begun their career as evidence that another player was better than him.One post is a 'history'? (I didn't know my posts were so relevant to you) LOL ...

You, on the other hand, have a history (which you're corroborating right here) of being a good of a story teller LOL ...Equally I think we will only be able to properly judge Zidane in a few years time when we can adequately assess his legacy.Teso already gave you an excellent response:We can do so now.Besides, you already 'assessed his legacy':I actually put Zidane as between the 7th to 10th best attacking midfielder ever Run away from what? Ask me a question and I'll answer it.Already done it.

Respond my QUIZ.Simply winning a WC is not alone to be the best ever, and Jack Charlton does not deserve to hang with this company.Not even if we consider the 1966 World Cup as the main originator of the tactical structure of 'modern' European defensive football? :eek: ...

Jack was essential to his team's defense, as Zidane was essential to his team's midfield too.

However France 98 (differently from England 66) created absolutely NOTHING tactically (and all Zizou did as the 'brain' of that team was to play a great final)!...

Of course JC didn't perform elasticos like Zizou, but he effectively participated of a way more important moment for the development of the game.