Greatest Modern Player ??

[Antonio81]

Not that often. Zidane actually had few poor games with France. He was good or very good most of the time and pretty often great.

When Zidane was actually touching the ball he wasn't just great, he was phenomenal, on par with Cryuff or Maradona. But when he wasn't(which was much of the game, even in the "great games" he played) he was nearly invisible. This is the big problem with him; I can see how someone watching just a highlight reel would rank him as high as many do. If you watch an entire match of either his club or France games, and compare them to Cryuff/Maradona/Pele, you can see a big difference.



He was good or great in all these areas. It is not enough to rank him into the elite (Platini, Maradona, Zico...) but it is to consider he's on par with some of the players mentioned earlier (Didi, Rivelino, Charlton. I could add Rivaldo and a few more names).

Rivaldo is a very underrated player, and easily one of the top 10 dribblers of all-time. His extreme selfishness (particularly in the olympic semi-final against Nigeria in '96 that cost Brazil the Gold) and his Oscar performance against Turkey in 2002 have alot to do with it.

[LondonCule]

As much as I can disagree with Teso he is actually bang on the money. Zidane is quite possibly the most overrated player without people debating it. You've got people saying ''X player isn't that great'' whilst Zidane, although an excellent player got milked to the max. I am a regular watcher of La Liga and he wasn't neccesarily the most influential player for Madrid. His last two seasons were frankly embarrassing and what is worse is that he came 2nd in WPOTY (2006) when he shouldn't have even been in the top 10 for his performances that season. Rivaldo at his peak matched Zidane tbh.

[comme]

So now I have a 'position about the French'? Would you care to back that up with some evidence?

Refusing to post your criteria or reasoning does not help those who do not know where you are coming from and does not help the progression of the discussion. If all people are going to do is list players then we are going to achieve nothing.

Teso, let's not forget here that you are the person who posted a long time ago that you didn't regard Zidane as a top 250 player, yet when challenged you have continuously failed to post a top 250. Furthermore you have given no criteria for this, despite being asked repeatedly.

Tell me now, what makes (for instance) Alfredo di Stefano an all-time great, but not Zidane?

[babaorum]

Wait a minute.

Let's respect Zidane, but with perspective.

Zidane had all those attributes in the Bonze Age of football (nowadays).

Beckenbauer had them in the Golden Age of football (60's/early 70's).

While the emblematic rival of Zidane was Canavarro (worse, Materazzi), Beckenbauer's was Bobby Moore.

Yes, Zidane was great, but for his time - the level of football was another one.

Were he playing in the 60's, & he'd be an illustrious nobody in the multitude.

A mere talented apprentice amidst Charlton, Gérson.

And still way behind Zico, Rivelino, Platini.

Not to mention midfield gods like Di Stéfano, Pelé, Didi, Cruyff, Maradona, all way above his sphere.

Those guys - technically - were hevyweights: Zidane, compared to them, was no more than a featherweight (a great featherweight, but still a featherweight).

His 'gang' of midfield rivals are Romário, Baggio, Ronaldinho Gaúcho, Hagi, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Bebeto.

Be the best (or one of the three best) among them's good enough for him.

Sorry but I don't believe in your golden age of football stuff. It's rubbish.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Teso, let's not forget

You obviously have. I have provided my reasoning at every stage.

[comme]

You obviously have. I have provided my reasoning at every stage.

Actually, no you haven't.

You know if you actually spent some of the time you waste on here sniping in at people, and telling "newbies" that they are wrong you'd have a lot more time to actually learn a bit about the game.

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/bestbest.html and www.wikipedia.org

between the two you might be able to come up with 250 players.

Then you can come back to me about why Di Stefano ranks as a great and Zidane doesn't. This is about the 5th time I've asked you that question and every time you have dodged it. Why don't you actually put something out there yourself for once.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I have not dodged it. Your accusations and sniping has no relevance to this thread and is doing nothing to further the discussion.

[kingkong1]

Sorry but I don't believe in your golden age of football stuff. It's rubbish.Understand your rage :) .

[comme]

I have not dodged it. Your accusations and sniping has no relevance to this thread and is doing nothing to further the discussion.

Dodged for a 6th time.

For someone so desperate for people to justify their positions, you are a little reluctant to justify your own position.

Why is that question so hard to answer?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I have already answered it and I have no wish to play your game. Particularly not when it involves ruining the discussion at hand. You need to show some maturity because your continued sniping is getting tiresome. Unfortunately it seems to be all you do lately. Now if you really want to continue then use the PM feature and give everyone else peace.

[babaorum]

Understand your rage :) .

There was no "rage" in my post :). My point is simply that football now is not worse than it was 50 years ago. Your point of view is tainted with nostalgia and as such lacks of objectivity.
I think a player like Zidane would have been great 50 years ago, just like I think Pele and co would have been great today.

[comme]

I have already answered it and I have no wish to play your game. Particularly not when it involves ruining the discussion at hand. You need to show some maturity because your continued sniping is getting tiresome. Unfortunately it seems to be all you do lately. Now if you really want to continue then use the PM feature and give everyone else peace.

I'm not playing any sort of game. I just think you need to start matching up to the standards that you demand of others. You have derailed countless threads with your regular agenda, and it's your unwillingness to provide a frame of reference for greatness that's taking this off on a tangent, not me.

You've got a PM, if that's how you want it.

[babaorum]

When Zidane was actually touching the ball he wasn't just great, he was phenomenal, on par with Cryuff or Maradona. But when he wasn't(which was much of the game, even in the "great games" he played) he was nearly invisible. This is the big problem with him; I can see how someone watching just a highlight reel would rank him as high as many do. If you watch an entire match of either his club or France games, and compare them to Cryuff/Maradona/Pele, you can see a big difference.




The difference is not that big actually. Talking about his France games only -I think I've watched all of them- I can say he was rarely invisible as you say. You could find some examples of course (WC2006 first-round for example) but he's usually been good and pretty often excellent, sometimes great.
In WC games (12), EC games (14), WC qualifiers games (4) and EC qualifiers games (19) Zidane scored or set up around 0.80 goal per game. That really shows how consistent he was for someone who was supposedly 'carried by his teammates' as some posters say.

[Perú FC]

So now I have a 'position about the French'? Would you care to back that up with some evidence?
Yes, I'm pretty sure you've a specific position about him, and I think more than one has noted it already when anyone mention the name of Zidane :D. I wouldn't work seeking evidences in old posts (was many), I believe that would be wasting time unnecesarily. Just I'd have to remember you thought he's not in a Top 250 all-time, like comme mentioned, or put over him names like Riquelme or Mendieta in recently posts.

Obviously I believe respectable every criteria so, only as a personal opinion, I think that haven't much sense and your arguments to support it were weak and haven't changed, so...

Refusing to post your criteria or reasoning does not help those who do not know where you are coming from and does not help the progression of the discussion. If all people are going to do is list players then we are going to achieve nothing.
... discussing it again would be irrelevant because the result will be the same.

[Tribune]

There was no "rage" in my post :). My point is simply that football now is not worse than it was 50 years ago. Your point of view is tainted with nostalgia and as such lacks of objectivity.
I think a player like Zidane would have been great 50 years ago, just like I think Pele and co would have been great today.

In terms of mentality, I would say it is. Both at the level of players and coaches. That's not to say Zidane would have sucked 50 years ago, just my small beef with the modern game. ;)

[kingkong1]

There was no "rage" in my post :). My point is simply that football now is not worse than it was 50 years ago. Your point of view is tainted with nostalgia and as such lacks of objectivity.
I think a player like Zidane would have been great 50 years ago, just like I think Pele and co would have been great today.I dont know how old you are, but I'm 61 and I've 'seen' all WCs from 1958 on.

58 & 62 WCs I 'watched' live on radio with the posterior addition of films.

Live on TV from 1970 on.

First time I actually went to Maracanã Stadium was in 1958 (I was 11) in the 'Brz Championship' of those times (the Rio-São Paulo Tournament): Flamengo 6 x 2 Palmeiras, and from then on I strived not to miss one Fla or Brz game in Rio.

Since then (as any other kid) I became a fanatic follower of football.

I missed nothing.

As far as visiting teams, I saw Puskas, Di Stéfano, Beckenbauer, Stanley Matthews, Eusébio, and later Cruyjff, Platini either in friendlies or serious competition.

Then - sorry - I CAN compare.

What doesn't mean I'm correct in my comparisons.

Coincidently or not though they are not too distant from 99% of the SA or European expert's lists of all-timers.

The name of Zidane will only show in 1% of those lists (I won't take the trouble of citing them now, that's too well known).

The only contemporary player that has its name guaranteed in 50% of those lists is Maldini.

Zidane - & that doesn't mean he is not a great player - is simply ignored by the guys who know football.

He'll only start being cited when you consult the expert's last 15 years match-ups.

And it's under this realistic perspective that I love Maître Zizou as a football player: along with Romário & R9, I see him as the most decisive personality of the globe in contemporary football (1993-2006).

So, it's not nostalgia, but precisely the objectivity so dear to you that moves me.

Way more suspicious is your so evident patriotism...

Which I understand and even forgive: it's a noble feeling towards one's own nation :D ...

[phil80]

As much as I can disagree with Teso he is actually bang on the money. Zidane is quite possibly the most overrated player without people debating it. You've got people saying ''X player isn't that great'' whilst Zidane, although an excellent player got milked to the max. I am a regular watcher of La Liga and he wasn't neccesarily the most influential player for Madrid. His last two seasons were frankly embarrassing and what is worse is that he came 2nd in WPOTY (2006) when he shouldn't have even been in the top 10 for his performances that season. Rivaldo at his peak matched Zidane tbh.

The 2006 rating was mainly his performance in the world cup, and it is pretty hard to find a player that had more of an influence during the knocckout phases than him. I agree that during the season he was not great, but he was not poor. The thing with the awards they always put a bigger emphasis on those major tournmanets.

I have already answered it and I have no wish to play your game. Particularly not when it involves ruining the discussion at hand.
Listing your 250 players better than zidane is not ruining the discussion and nor have you answered it. You mentioned you could easily list that many players but have still failed to do so. if you are going to make wild accusations and not back them up then dont pounce on 'newbies' when they do the same.

[Scolari]

I have already answered it and I have no wish to play your game. Particularly not when it involves ruining the discussion at hand. You need to show some maturity because your continued sniping is getting tiresome. Unfortunately it seems to be all you do lately. Now if you really want to continue then use the PM feature and give everyone else peace.

The most hypocritical post I've seen yet on this forum.

[kingkong1]

The 2006 rating was mainly his performance in the world cup, and it is pretty hard to find a player that had more of an influence during the knocckout phases than him. I agree that during the season he was not great, but he was not poor. The thing with the awards they always put a bigger emphasis on those major tournmanets.


Listing your 250 players better than zidane is not ruining the discussion and nor have you answered it. You mentioned you could easily list that many players but have still failed to do so. if you are going to make wild accusations and not back them up then dont pounce on 'newbies' when they do the same.Let me play the devil's advocate a bit.

Teso may be stubborn but he's not stupid.

I believe those '250 players' to be more a figure of rhetoric meaning that Zidane is very far from being a 'god'.

And I agree with that, not in such proportion of course: as I said in my opinion Zidane in a 4-3-3 as a midfielder would be between 12th and 18th, and overall 44th-66th.

What's definitely a supreme honour:

I personally rank the 110 best ever as geniuses.

The 22 ever as 'gods'.

And of course there is only ONE (omniscient, ominipresent, omnipotent) Jehovah.

Forever & ever, amen :D ...

[kingkong1]

And of course there is only ONE.And since the theme revolves around 'modern football' it's always good to revise a few clips of who invented it & how it was played at its best:

http://www.360soccer.com/pele/

Geniuses & gods, learn it! :cool: ...