Greatest Modern Player ??

[Dr. Know]

Now, where in that quote do i claim it as an actual fact? Quit squirming and answer that question. That is my take on the differences of the two players since it is not fair to Riquelme if someone just used stats and individual accomplishments (zidane would blow him out of the water). Based on watching the two, riquelme slows the game down more and tries for the difficult pass too often compared to zidane. Nowhere is this documented and no one ever said it was, only an ignoramus would expect it to be, and if you're going to get your panties in a bunch because someone rates your man-crush differently than yourself then go somewhere else and leave the discussion for the adults.

Yawn more of the same from you as expected. Can't back up anything you claim. What I've been trying to get at and my whole point is that it's impossible to know for sure or not who lost the ball more. It's such a broad comment. To say that Riquelme lost it more based on the 5 or 6 matches you've probably seen from him is well quite dumb.

And as a matter of fact Zidane and Riquelme are both extremely comparable when using just stats. Especially during their time in Spain despite obviously Riquelme playing in a vastly inferior team. But then again I didn't really expect you to know that.

[Moishe]

I agree both sides were already talented but that is like saying milan would have accomplished everything even without pirlo on the team since they had kaka, inzaghi, seedorf, shevchenko. It doesnt work like that because pirlo was an important player just like zidane was for those sides. Just because the squad was already talented doesnt mean zidane did not have an impact and make the sides better.

Not wanting to go round and round, but I personally feel that Milan side while very good was not at the level of the Juve sides Zidane played with. Real Madrid just maybe. That Juve side to me was just awesome.

[phil80]

Yawn more of the same from you as expected. Can't back up anything you claim. What I've been trying to get at and my whole point is that it's impossible to know for sure or not who lost the ball more. It's such a broad comment. To say that Riquelme lost it more based on the 5 or 6 matches you've probably seen from him is well quite dumb.

And as a matter of fact Zidane and Riquelme are both extremely comparable when using just stats. Especially during their time in Spain despite obviously Riquelme playing in a vastly inferior team. But then again I didn't really expect you to know that.
Once again comparing players not using stats is always subjective and is based on actually watching the players, get that through your infinitesimally small skull. now show me the stats where riquelme and zidane are comparable, dont try to pathetically squirm your way out of this one.

[Dr. Know]

Once again comparing players not using stats is always subjective and is based on actually watching the players, get that through your infinitesimally small skull.

Jesus Christ. READ for once in your life.

now show me the stats where riquelme and zidane are comparable, dont try to pathetically squirm your way out of this one.

The only who's making retarded claims and then trying to squirm his way out of them is you.

Riquelme scored more league goals in Spain despite playing in fewer matches and playing for a much weaker side. Assist stats weren't that far off either.

Riquelme's 2004/05 season of 15 goals and 10 assists was also superior stat wise to any individual season Zidane had in La Liga.

[phil80]

Jesus Christ. READ for once in your life.



The only who's making retarded claims and then trying to squirm his way out of them is you.

Riquelme scored more league goals in Spain despite playing in fewer matches and playing for a much weaker side. Assist stats weren't that far off either.

Riquelme's 2004/05 season of 15 goals and 10 assists was also superior stat wise to any individual season Zidane had in La Liga.
YOU are absolutely ridiculous. First i was referring to individual accomplishments (world player of the year, etc) and if you are going to use game stats atleast make them accurate, 10 assists? where the hell did that come from? and its good to see that you pick and choose only certain seasons (especially when riquelme was at his prime and zidane was not). ABSOLUTLEY PATHETIC, but once again it has become expected from you.

[Dr. Know]

YOU are absolutely ridiculous. First i was referring to individual accomplishments (world player of the year, etc)

Are you serious?

First off. You said:

"That is my take on the differences of the two players since it is not fair to Riquelme if someone just used stats and individual accomplishments"

Then you ask me to give you the stats and now apparently you were only talking about individual accomplishments. OK :rolleyes:. Another one of your tangents.

and if you are going to use game stats atleast make them accurate, 10 assists? where the hell did that come from? and its good to see that you pick and choose only certain seasons (especially when riquelme was at his prime and zidane was not). ABSOLUTLEY PATHETIC, but once again it has become expected from you.

Yes 10 assists. The season Forlan was pichichi largely due to Riquelme. Look it up.

I already said over the course of their entire time in Spain Riquelme scored MORE goals and had similar assist stats in fewer matches played and for a vastly inferior team. How is that picking just one season?

What do you want to compare? Zidane's stats at Juventus? Go ahead. Compare it to Riquelme's best seasons. Of course I probably won't be able to mention any of Riquelme's stats and numbers at Boca since you'll probably dismiss them :rolleyes:. I've already proven that their stats can certainly be compared despite what you said in the other post. Of course now I expect more tangents from you.

I'm through arguing with you. Read Tribune's threads and stop talking about things you clearly have no clue about.

[kingkong1]

of course, i understood it, I was just kidding, man, you're only partially incoherent, but I can usually get the gist of what you're saying in between the multi-colored font...:DIn between ANY multi-colored font, J, is the fact that, club or NT wise, Europe's still behind South America in WC and CWC records...

And you have to hurry, because money is not something that lasts forever (remember the last crisis in the American economy), and when that money ends up Europe will be passing the hat even to Asian countries...

So being a little humble won't hurt...

[babaorum]

What others, myself included have tried in vain to point out to you is that while Zidane was a brilliant player, you cannot pin one club or countries players success to the actions of his play. What you can't seem to accept is that had Zidane never arrived at Juve or Real they still would've accomplished all they did.

At club level Dugarry in Bordeaux certainly benefited from his actions (see their UEFA cup campaign in 96).
I don't have enough knowledge about his years with Juve and Madrid to make a fair judgement however it's pretty clear to me that your point is not valid if you look at his carreer with France. I've just checked some interesting stats and facts (www.fff.fr/bleus/index.shtml) showing Zidane's impact on the team's result. In particular there are descriptions (in French) of all the goals scored by France with a quick summary for each of them (who scored ? who assisted the goal ? which other players played a decisive part in it ?).

To sum up :

Number of caps between 1994 and 2006 : 108 (220 goals for - 71 goals against)

Number of goals : 31

Number of goals he directly set up by goal-assist : 23 (apparently not 24 as I stated earlier).

Number of goals he undirectly set up : 15 (i.e. another player making the assist but Zidane being decisive to make the difference earlier in the action. For instance Anelka's second goal vs England in Wembley 99' - Dugarry made the assist only due to Zidane's quick reaction and fast passing). Note that this number could be higher as the description of some goals are at times rather elusive.

It appears that Zidane had a significant impact in at least 70 goals by scoring or setting them up (31 + 23 + ~ 15).

70/220 goals ~ 1/3 goals... It's clear that the whole team benefited from his actions of play. Zidane certainly elevated the level of the team and made things look easier for the other players, especially the strikers.

Now would the results have been different had he not been here ? Maybe not as other players could have played a bigger part (Henry, Djorkaeff, Pires...). We'll never know, though I doubt France would have won EC2000 without him.

[Moishe]

At club level Dugarry in Bordeaux certainly benefited from his actions (see their UEFA cup campaign in 96).
I don't have enough knowledge about his years with Juve and Madrid to make a fair judgement however it's pretty clear to me that your point is not valid if you look at his carreer with France. I've just checked some interesting stats and facts (www.fff.fr/bleus/index.shtml) showing Zidane's impact on the team's result. In particular there are descriptions (in French) of all the goals scored by France with a quick summary for each of them (who scored ? who assisted the goal ? which other players played a decisive part in it ?).

To sum up :

Number of caps between 1994 and 2006 : 108 (220 goals for - 71 goals against)

Number of goals : 31

Number of goals he directly set up by goal-assist : 23 (apparently not 24 as I stated earlier).

Number of goals he undirectly set up : 15 (i.e. another player making the assist but Zidane being decisive to make the difference earlier in the action. For instance Anelka's second goal vs England in Wembley 99' - Dugarry made the assist only due to Zidane's quick reaction and fast passing). Note that this number could be higher as the description of some goals are at times rather elusive.

It appears that Zidane had a significant impact in at least 70 goals by scoring or setting them up (31 + 23 + ~ 15).

70/220 goals ~ 1/3 goals... It's clear that the whole team benefited from his actions of play. Zidane certainly elevated the level of the team and made things look easier for the other players, especially the strikers.

Now would the results have been different had he not been here ? Maybe not as other players could have played a bigger part (Henry, Djorkaeff, Pires...). We'll never know, though I doubt France would have won EC2000 without him.

Thank you for an informative response. Those certainly are nice stats I will give him that. However I still stand by my comments that it was the defense and not Zidane that carried those teams. While the numbers you provided do back up your claim, it still does not change the fact that statistics while a nice gauge don't always tell the whole story. You yourself even said that without Zidane the results likely would've been the same. That right there is my point of contention with others. Zidane is elevated by some in such a manner that they say France/Real/Juve....were carried by Zidane yet they were not, ever. I've stated numerous times what a brilliant player he is but I also stand behind my opinion that he is still severely overrated. Cheers.

[kingkong1]

I still stand by my comments that it was the defense and not Zidane that carried those teamsGermany and Argentina in 90, Brazil and Italy in 94, Brazil and France in 98, Brazil and Germany in 2002, Italy and France in 2006***, and, with them, Baggio, Maradona, Romário, Ronaldo, Totti and Klose, all of them have been 'carried by their defenses' in those last 20 years.

Defensivism is a main trend of 'modern' football and to say that Zidane, or any of those players cited above, were 'carried by their defenses' is 'chover no molhado' ('to rain on the wet', Braz expr.)...

That doesn't mean that because of that they didn't play an exponential role in those campaigns.

And all of them had strong defenses behind them.

Remember that two defensemen, Kahn and Cannavarro, were chosen the last FIFA's WC best players (2002, 2006).You yourself even said that without Zidane the results likely would've been the same. Didn't read would, read might...

For me Babaorum stats are definitive...

If they don't impress you, it's enough to look at the elegance + astounding efficacy (aesthetics, Teso!...) with which this great French-Algerian 'promenaded' himself in the field...

_______________________________________________________________
***Not to mention most of the other participants...

[jpick]

In between ANY multi-colored font, J, is the fact that, club or NT wise, Europe's still behind South America in WC and CWC records...


when did I ever claim otherwise...:confused:


And you have to hurry, because money is not something that lasts forever (remember the last crisis in the American economy), and when that money ends up Europe will be passing the hat even to Asian countries...

you don't have to tell me how bad the american economy is, I live in florida, one of the hardest hit areas of the housing bubble collapse. ;) with that being said, some of the other economies I don't believe will "decouple" like it seems you are insinuating...but now I am digressing again.

So being a little humble won't hurt...

when was I not humble?...I just said you are confusing as hell to follow at times, and after reading enough of your posts, i usually curl up in the fetal position and eat soap until I get electro-shock therapy...but I didn't intend to be arrogant. :p

[kingkong1]

when was I not humble?...I just said you are confusing as hell to follow at times, and after reading enough of your posts, i usually curl up in the fetal position and eat soap until I get electro-shock therapy...People used to say the same about Hegel, Einstein, Nietzsche and Schoppenhauer and they didn't even bother... :pbut I didn't intend to be arrogant.I know jpick, I even agree with you I might sometimes be a bit confusing, but that's what generally happens when one dares to launch new (and inevitably polemic) ideas instead of repeating stereotyped formulae :( ...

[Moishe]

Germany and Argentina in 90, Brazil and Italy in 94, Brazil and France in 98, Brazil and Germany in 2002, Italy and France in 2006***, and, with them, Baggio, Maradona, Romário, Ronaldo, Totti and Klose, all of them have been 'carried by their defenses' in those last 20 years.

Defensivism is a main trend of 'modern' football and to say that Zidane, or any of those players cited above, were 'carried by their defenses' is 'chover no molhado' ('to rain on the wet', Braz expr.)...

That doesn't mean that because of that they didn't play an exponential role in those campaigns.

And all of them had strong defenses behind them.

Remember that two defensemen, Kahn and Cannavarro, were chosen the last FIFA's WC best players (2002, 2006).Didn't read would, read might...

For me Babaorum stats are definitive...

If they don't impress you, it's enough to look at the elegance + astounding efficacy (aesthetics, Teso!...) with which this great French-Algerian 'promenaded' himself in the field...

_______________________________________________________________
***Not to mention most of the other participants...

Oh jeez not the acid monkey:D My point of contention isn't whether or not Zidane played an influential role, it's against the assertion that he carried the French teams. Naturally it almost always comes down to the old defense wins games line which I do agree with. In 1986 Argentina had a very good if not underrated defense but without Maradona they likely would've not gone far. What Diego did in 1986 was will a team to each and every one of it's victories. That is the barometer in my eyes for the modern times of futbol and it is something Zidane never did in the entirety of any one given torneo. He has absolutely had some fantastic if not incredible matches but not in every single game. France without Zidane was still capable of winning the World Cup although having him certainly made things much much easier. Argentina without Maradona was just another team. That there is the difference. Now as far as your offer to trade some tabs of acid for anti-anxiety pills sounds good to me, when do you want to set it up:D

[Moishe]

when was I not humble?...I just said you are confusing as hell to follow at times, and after reading enough of your posts, i usually curl up in the fetal position and eat soap until I get electro-shock therapy...but I didn't intend to be arrogant. :p

It's the acid:eek:

[luciusmagister]

When does modern begin?

I never liked any of the sides Zidane played on but he is my favorite player of his playing era.

[kingkong1]

Oh jeez not the acid monkey:D My point of contention isn't whether or not Zidane played an influential role, it's against the assertion that he carried the French teams. Naturally it almost always comes down to the old defense wins games line which I do agree with. In 1986 Argentina had a very good if not underrated defense but without Maradona they likely would've not gone far. What Diego did in 1986 was will a team to each and every one of it's victories. That is the barometer in my eyes for the modern times of futbol and it is something Zidane never did in the entirety of any one given torneo. He has absolutely had some fantastic if not incredible matches but not in every single game. France without Zidane was still capable of winning the World Cup although having him certainly made things much much easier. Argentina without Maradona was just another team. That there is the difference. Now as far as your offer to trade some tabs of acid for anti-anxiety pills sounds good to me, when do you want to set it up:DMoishe,

Babaorum gave you sound numbers and you responded with 'i think so's:However I still stand by my comments that it was the defense and not Zidane that carried those teams.I also stand behind my opinion that he is still severely overrated.You're certainly entitled to your comments and your opinion, but let's convene that all that becomes pretty cloudy in face of the concrete stats Babaorum presented.

Or am I (or you are) taking the wrong pills? :cool: ...

Besides I have never mentioned 86 but the last 20 years (from 88 on); nevertheless in 94 Maradona was still there taking the tablets now you so frantically ask for...

And, then, if he hadn't a good defense behind him he wouldn't get so far either in that WC...

Nor would Romário and Baggio in the same WC, nor Zidane in 98 and 2006, nor Ronaldo or Klose in 2002...

[Moishe]

When does modern begin?

Depends on who's asked. I would say the early 90's if anything but then again I'm an old fart.

[Tribune]

Moishe,

Babaorum gave you sound numbers and you responded with 'i think so's:You're certainly entitled to your comments and your opinion, but let's convene that all that becomes pretty cloudy in face of the concrete stats Babaorum presented.

Or am I (or you are) taking the wrong pills? :cool: ...

Besides I have never mentioned 86 but the last 20 years (from 88 on); nevertheless in 94 Maradona was still there taking the tablets now you so frantically ask for...

And if he hadn't a good defense behind him he wouldn't get so far either in that WC...

Nor would Romário and Baggio in the same WC, nor Zidane in 98 and 2006, nor Ronaldo or Klose in 2002...

I'm going to act like a priest and say you are wrong. :D

[Moishe]

Moishe,

Babaorum gave you sound numbers and you responded with 'i think so's:You're certainly entitled to your comments and your opinion, but let's convene that all that becomes pretty cloudy in face of the concrete stats Babaorum presented.

Or am I (or you are) taking the wrong pills? :cool: ...

Besides I have never mentioned 86 but the last 20 years (from 88 on); nevertheless in 94 Maradona was still there taking the tablets now you so frantically ask for...

And if he hadn't a good defense behind him he wouldn't get so far either in that WC...

Nor would Romário and Baggio in the same WC, nor Zidane in 98 and 2006, nor Ronaldo or Klose in 2002...

That's it dammit! Nothing but marijuana for me from now on. I have no earthly idea what your on about.:D As far as the concrete numbers that Baborum provided, I have no issue with them nor dispute them but in the end they are just stats. I brought up Maradona in 86 solely as an example of what it means to carry a team from game one until the very end. I've never contested the influence Zidane had for France especially. What I do contest is how some people go on about how Zidane is the only reason France progressed.

I have no problem with Zidane as far as the aesthetics of his play nor his contribution. I have no issue with his being considered one of if not the best player of the past 20 years. But please don't tell me he carried France because it's just not the case. Baborum even stated that France could've won without Zidane but you can't say the same about Argentina 86 without Diego. 1986 and Diego Maradona is what set the bar for carrying a team and Zidane has never had a torneo like that. Zidane was a great player on a great team/s while Diego was a even greater player on a good team. That to me is the difference and why I think Zidane is overrated. You and your damn psychedelics, look what it's done to me:eek:

Those tablets Maradona got busted for is Ripped Fuel from Twin Labs which most anyone can buy from any vitamin store or Walmart. Ephedrine and Mahuang not coke nor the hallucinogens you seem to enjoy and definitely not my high of choice.

[kingkong1]

That's it dammit! Nothing but marijuana for me from now on. I have no earthly idea what your on about. As far as the concrete numbers that Baborum provided, I have no issue with them nor dispute them but in the end they are just stats. I brought up Maradona in 86 solely as an example of what it means to carry a team from game one until the very end. I've never contested the influence Zidane had for France especially. What I do contest is how some people go on about how Zidane is the only reason France progressed.

I have no problem with Zidane as far as the aesthetics of his play nor his contribution. I have no issue with his being considered one of if not the best player of the past 20 years. But please don't tell me he carried France because it's just not the case. Baborum even stated that France could've won without Zidane but you can't say the same about Argentina 86 without Diego. 1986 and Diego Maradona is what set the bar for carrying a team and Zidane has never had a torneo like that. Zidane was a great player on a great team/s while Diego was a even greater player on a good team. That to me is the difference and why I think Zidane is overrated. You and your damn psychedelics, look what it's done to me:eek:

Those tablets Maradona got busted for is Ripped Fuel from Twin Labs which most anyone can buy from any vitamin store or Walmart. Ephedrine and Mahuang not coke nor the hallucinogens you seem to enjoy and definitely not my high of choice.Eh Moishe, eres ocho o ochenta, huh?...

(And I'm not the one who brought up the drugs issue here...)

But you made El Pibe now look like Madre Theresa of Calcuttah!...

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9707/maradona21ok3.jpg

Look at those angelic red eyes (puke!...)

And this in a WC quarterfinal, the whole world watching...

When you take those 'vitamins' that 'almost anyone can buy' do you also get like that??? :p ...