Who would pair in center midfield

[everythingfootball]

Alot of people say Gerrard and Lampard should not play together so i am asking who would you play together instead.

My View:

Gerrard or Lampard should play and i think Gerrard is the better of the two so i would have any of these:

Gerrard and Barry
Gerrard and Hargreaves

[KumarsS]

Thinking long-term, I'd play Carrick and Hargreaves.

[JeffS]

I like the two holding/defensive midfielders and two wing/roaming/attacking midfielders configuration that a lot teams are doing these days:

Milan - with Gattuso and Pirlo as the two holding/defensive mids, and Kaka and Seedorf as the wing/attacking mids

Bayern - Ze Roberto and Mark Van Bommel as holding/defensive mids, and Ribbery and Schweingster or Altentop as wing/attacking mids.

Brazil - Ze Roberto and Emmerson (or some of the new young studs Brazil has) at holding/defensive mids, Kaka and Ronaldinho as wing/attacking mids.

With this type of line up, the holding mids play in front of the defense, and disperse to the other wing/attackers.

The two wing/attackers don't play like traditional wingers (left sided or right sided midfielders). They play some on the wing, but roam to the center a lot, especially as they approach the opposition's penalty box. And these two often switch sides. This makes them difficult to mark, or respond to defensively.

Obviously, this type of line up lacks wingers and a traditional "number 10" (central attacking mid that plays right behind the forwards).

I find the teams using this type of line-up to be quite effective. It gives a lot of help to the defense, and will free up the wing/attacking mids to do what they want on attack. It also gives freedom to the outside defenders to maraud up the wings.

I think England should go this route. For one, Gerrard and Lampard simply do no mix when deploying a traditional midfield configuration. They are the same type of player - box to box attacking guys. Also, England's defense under McClaren was abysmal. Two solid holding/defensive mids would go along way to solving this. Also, England's possession game was abysmal. Two defensive/holding mids, with roaming wing/attackers, will go a long way to solve this as well. Finally, England lacks a true left winger that's any good. They've inserted Cole there, and he's done OK. But he's not a natural left winger/left sided mid.

Thus, for the two defensive/holding mids, I would go with Carrick or Hardgreaves or Barry, with Hardgreaves a shoe-in (assuming fitness) - he had a lot German/continental training, and will help England because of it. For the wing/attackers, I'd go with Beckham, Cole, Gerrard, and Lampard. Right now, assuming health and form, I'd have Beckham in automatically. He's the only one who's played abroad (and thus brings some continental tactics and skills). He also made consistent big plays for England when he played this year, racking up assists.

As for Gerrard and Lampard - fantastic players for their clubs, but for England, not so much. I think they need to leave the EPL and go to Spain or Italy. These guys really need to expand their games. They're both good at what they do, fitting in nicely in the fast, long ball, back and forth, EPL style football, and going forward a lot, and scoring lot's of goals and/or making big plays. But when it comes to the international game, they become far less effective because they don't have continental tactics or technique.

[thejuggernaut]

I like the two holding/defensive midfielders and two wing/roaming/attacking midfielders configuration that a teams are doing these days:

Milan - with Gattuso and Pirlo as the two holding/defensive mids, and Kaka and Seedorf as the wing/attacking mids

Bayern - Ze Roberto and Mark Van Bommel as holding/defensive mids, and Ribbery and Schweingster or Altentop as wing/attacking mids.

Brazil - Ze Roberto and Emmerson (or some of the new young studs Brazil has) at holding/defensive mids, Kaka and Ronaldinho as wing/attacking mids.

With this type of line up, the holding mids play in front of the defense, and disperse to the other wing/attackers.

The two wing/attackers don't play like traditional wingers (left sided or right sided midfielders). They play some on the wing, but roam to the center a lot, especially as the approach the opposition's penalty box. And these two often switch sides.

Obviously, this type of line up lacks wingers and a traditional "number 10" (central attacking mid that plays right behind the forwards).

I find the teams using this type of line-up to be quite effective. It gives a lot of help to the defense, and will free up the wing/attacking mids to do what they want on attack. It also gives freedom to the outside defenders to maraud up the wings.

I think England should go this route. For one, Gerrard and Lampard simply do no mix when deploying a traditional midfield configuration. They are the same type of player - box to box attacking guys. Also, England's defense under McClaren was abysmal. Two solid holding/defensive mids would go along way to solving this. Also, Englands possession game was abysmal. Two defensive/holding mids, with roaming wing/attackers, will go a long way to solve this as well. Finally, England lacks a true left winger that's any good. They've inserted Cole there, and he's done OK. But he's not a natural left winger/left sided mid.

Thus, for the two defensive/holding mids, I would go with Carrick or Hardgreaves or Barry, with Hardgreaves a shoe-in (assuming fitness) - he had a lot German/continental training, and will help England because of it. For the wing/attackers, I'd go with Beckham, Cole, Gerrard, and Lampard. Right now, assuming health and form, I'd have Beckham in automatically. He's the only one who's played abroad (and thus brings some continental tactics and skills).

As for Gerrard and Lampard - fantastic players for their clubs, but for England, not so much. I think they need to leave the EPL and go to Spain or Italy. These guys really need to expand their games. They're both good at what they do, fitting in nicely in the fast, long ball, back and forth, EPL style football, and going forward a lot, and scoring lot's of goals and/or making big plays. But when it comes to the international game, they become far less effective because they don't have continental tactics or technique.

I think this is exactly what needs to be considered in the future for England. Well said on all accounts, but Gerrard and Lampard (IMO) lack a certain creativity, especially when together, when comparing AMid. Kaka and Seedorf; Ribery and Altintop; (Hell Man City we got Elano and Petrov), and to put it very very blunt, what these pairings can do that Steve and Frank can't, to be very basic about it... is dribble. If I was the new manager I would use 2 def mids (Barry, Hargreaves, Carrick, or whoever, Reo-coker, sidwell, there's is a good amount of talent there) and instead use Joe Cole and SWP as the nontraditional attack winger/mids that you mentioned earlier. Both these guys are very good at dribbling into space and dishing. Maybe eventually work in Lennon, Walcott, Abonglahor. Again the dribbling ability in my opinion is too valuable a trait when using this kind of formation.

[KumarsS]

I think this is exactly what needs to be considered in the future for England. Well said on all accounts, but Gerrard and Lampard (IMO) lack a certain creativity, especially when together, when comparing AMid. Kaka and Seedorf; Ribery and Altintop; (Hell Man City we got Elano and Petrov), and to put it very very blunt, what these pairings can do that Steve and Frank can't, to be very basic about it... is dribble. If I was the new manager I would use 2 def mids (Barry, Hargreaves, Carrick, or whoever, Reo-coker, sidwell, there's is a good amount of talent there) and instead use Joe Cole and SWP as the nontraditional attack winger/mids that you mentioned earlier. Both these guys are very good at dribbling into space and dishing. Maybe eventually work in Lennon, Walcott, Abonglahor. Again the dribbling ability in my opinion is too valuable a trait when using this kind of formation.

That's what I was going for too when I suggested Carrick and Hargreaves. I would envision the ideal England midfield looking something like this:

-----------------CARRICK-------HARGREAVES-------------------
-LENNON-----------------------------------------------J. COLE-

This way, Joe Cole can also spend a good deal of time "in the hole," which he is most comfortable doing.

[JeffS]

and to put it very very blunt, what these pairings can do that Steve and Frank can't, to be very basic about it... is dribble.

yup. Steve and Frank can't dribble, nor really create. nor are they really good at defensive mid. And at the international game, these deficiencies are exposed. True, they're good bustling box to box guys that can sneak in the penalty box and get some goals. But they lack the aforementioned skills.

I like the idea of Cole with Lennon or SWP. Speed and dribbling skils.

[Matt Clark]

And at the international game, these deficiencies are exposed.
:p I love this tired old duck.

Kids, "the international game" has long ceased to be the benchmark it once was. If players can prosper in the Champions' League, which is the pinnacle of world football, then they can do it in "the international game".

Arguing that a player's club form (which of course includes Europe) is one thing, but their form for the national team is the true measure, is to prove yourself a total clot.

As to dribbling, get back to your Playstations. That also ceased to be of any real value years ago.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Your dribbling comment is why English football is in such a mess from a development standpoint. Dribbling is a key component of the game.

[Matt Clark]

Not in central midfield it's not. And in any case, the comment was hardly aimed at dribbling per se, but rather at "dribbling", which is what is understood by the concept by the Playstation generation. Talking about dribbling in a debate such as this is shorthand for "I'm a wanker". Particularly when paired with the thoroughly daft delusion that not being known for it "in the international game" equates to a deficiency, even as it's of no consequence whatsoever at the higher level of play in the European club game.

But thanks for weighing in with your usual effectiveness, Teso me old plum.

[Matt Clark]

Anyhoo - now that we're here, I would pair Hargreaves and Lampard in midfield for England. With SWP, Lennon or Pennant on the right, depending on who's least shit that week. Cole could patch up the other side as per.

[AnyLuckForEngland?]

Why not play the two players who actually play well together and complement each other so that the sum of their abilities translates to the best England performance?

Why does it have to be Gerrard or Lampard? Why not drop them both and just go with whoever plays best.

I also wondered this: with a new manager, do you think he will pick a different captain?

[JeffS]

:p I love this tired old duck.

Kids, "the international game" has long ceased to be the benchmark it once was. If players can prosper in the Champions' League, which is the pinnacle of world football, then they can do it in "the international game".


Liverpool has had plenty of recent Euro success. And Gerrard had good performances. But look at Liverpool's lineup, or any major EPL team's lineup. It's mostly international.

And look at Lampard at Chelsea. I think he does so well there because he has Makalele and Essian shoring things up and controlling the midfield behind him.` He's free to charge forward and get into scoring position because of those guys.


Arguing that a player's club form (which of course includes Europe) is one thing, but their form for the national team is the true measure, is to prove yourself a total clot.

As to dribbling, get back to your Playstations. That also ceased to be of any real value years ago.

So I take it then that you are satisfied with Steven Gerrard's and Frank Lampard's performances for England?

Are you satisfied with England's performances during EC qualifying?

And please don't be defensive. People posting here want to see England do better, and are openly trying to figure out how that can be accomplished.

[thejuggernaut]

Not in central midfield it's not. And in any case, the comment was hardly aimed at dribbling per se, but rather at "dribbling", which is what is understood by the concept by the Playstation generation. Talking about dribbling in a debate such as this is shorthand for "I'm a wanker". Particularly when paired with the thoroughly daft delusion that not being known for it "in the international game" equates to a deficiency, even as it's of no consequence whatsoever at the higher level of play in the European club game.

But thanks for weighing in with your usual effectiveness, Teso me old plum.
Teso nailed it. You have not even considered the argument when in regards to certain systems ie (Argentina, Brazil, AC Milan, France, Bayen Munich) all use a pair of strong defensive midfielders who provide very little in the attack, and then balance the formation with two active, creative midfielders who to some extent can dribble. Lampard and Gerrard would look hysterical if left to be the SOLE creative pairing in the midfield (which neither are for their clubs!!). AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY? They suck at Dribbling.... I may be a wanker but at least I know enough to think the Status Quo might not be the best for England.

[Matt Clark]

Liverpool has had plenty of recent Euro success. And Gerrard had good performances. But look at Liverpool's lineup, or any major EPL team's lineup. It's mostly international.
So? We're talking about a player's ability at the highest level. My point was that using the international game as the benchmark is cliched and out of date.

So I take it then that you are satisfied with Steven Gerrard's and Frank Lampard's performances for England?
I couldn't give a ******** either way. Gerrard's performances for Liverpool at the higher niveau of European club football are of interest to me, what he does during hobby time is up to him.

[JeffS]

So? We're talking about a player's ability at the highest level. My point was that using the international game as the benchmark is cliched and out of date.


Perhaps. But it is the England national team, and what people would do with England's midfield to make England better, that we're talking about in this thread, isn't it?


I couldn't give a ******** either way. Gerrard's performances for Liverpool at the higher niveau of European club football are of interest to me, what he does during hobby time is up to him.

I've often heard that many English fans put club ahead of country, by a large margin. So I guess it's true.

But, seeing as how the England team continues to disappoint tournament after tournament, I can't say that I blame them. :p

[Karloski]

Matt's right. The highest level a player can be tested at these day's is the Champions League.

Now, if we take into account that over the last three years Chelsea, Liverpool and Man Utd have been fairly successful. Mix in the fact that arguably out of the top 3 players in each team, 2 are English:

Chelsea: Drogba, Lampard and Terry
Liverpool: Carragher, Gerrard and Torres (not much before him)
Man Utd: Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Rooney

You can't possibly say these guy's are not good enough to play internationals.

It's not really a dribbler whose important. Its a midfield maestro who can pick out passes and set the tempo of the match.

[JeffS]

Matt's right. The highest level a player can be tested at these day's is the Champions League.

Now, if we take into account that over the last three years Chelsea, Liverpool and Man Utd have been fairly successful. Mix in the fact that arguably out of the top 3 players in each team, 2 are English:

Chelsea: Drogba, Lampard and Terry
Liverpool: Carragher, Gerrard and Torres (not much before him)
Man Utd: Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Rooney

You can't possibly say these guy's are not good enough to play internationals.

It's not really a dribbler whose important. Its a midfield maestro who can pick out passes and set the tempo of the match.

All good points.

But why can't all that translate into success for the England national team?

You can't just blame Mclarren.

Sven got them to the WC and the last EC. But England didn't exactly set those tournaments on fire, either. In Germany, the England attack was flat out anemic. There was zero creativity.

Keagan and Hoddle didn't exactly have electric attacks, either.

Point being, it's just not the manager's fault for underwhelming England performances.

So yes, Liverpool, ManU, and Chelsea have all had good showings in the CL, and yes, those teams have English players among their stars. But those teams also have international players as stars as well. So perhaps a lot of the flair and creativity is actually coming from the international players. This way, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, Carrick, et al, can do their things, but not worry about providing the flair.

But then they play for England, and there is no one else to really provide that flair and creativity.

[Karloski]

All good points.

But why can't all that translate into success for the England national team?

You can't just blame Mclarren.

Sven got them to the WC and the last EC. But England didn't exactly set those tournaments on fire, either. In Germany, the England attack was flat out anemic. There was zero creativity.

Keagan and Hoddle didn't exactly have electric attacks, either.

Point being, it's just not the manager's fault for underwhelming England performances.

So yes, Liverpool, ManU, and Chelsea have all had good showings in the CL, and yes, those teams have English players among their stars. But those teams also have international players as stars as well. So perhaps a lot of the flair and creativity is actually coming from the international players. This way, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, Carrick, et al, can do their things, but not worry about providing the flair.

But then they play for England, and there is no one else to really provide that flair and creativity.

I don't have all the answers as to why the players can't re-create their club form for their country. Maybe you can give me an answer to these questions:

1) If the England players have no creativity. How come players such as Gerrard, Lampard. J Cole, Rooney etc, have supplied/achieved world class passes/runs/goals in the Champions League (toughest competition in World Football) numerous times. Infact many times been the difference between winning and losing the match.
2) Who are Germany's flair/creative players (not having a go, just curious)

[KumarsS]

2) Who are Germany's flair/creative players (not having a go, just curious)

Lahm, Klose and Schneider are usually the most creative players on the field for Germany. Ballack and Schweinsteiger as well are creative hubs for the team when needed.

Germany doesn't tend to showcase "flair" per se, but instead of individul flicks and tricks the attractive football of the current German team is apparent in their elaborate passing moves, a lot of which are masterminded by one of the previously mentioned five players.

[BobanFan]

Germany doesn't tend to showcase "flair" per se,

Really?