Euro Draw 2008 Dec. 2

[Schwalker]

Have I entered a time warp...Are we already talking about the Euro 2008 final? :D

[squidward123]

I wonder how that 2006 game had ended if Italy had had to beat Argentina in extra-time and a penalty shoot-out while Germany had strolled to an easy victory against Ukraine. The outcome would probably have been slightly different, also considering that Italy needed 118 minutes to score against Germany, who at that point had 238 minutes of World Cup football in their bones against two of the strongest national sides.

yes that is a very valid point.

i was just making my comments based on what unfolded.

I simply think that frings would have made a difference, and the only reason i said italy deserved it is because of the 2 mins at the end. for 118 it was even completely.

[Cris 09]

Going beyond the draw; any one care to predict the second round based on the results you feel might be favorable in you opinion.

I know this is reaching, but just curious to see how some of you believe this will play out, for fun!

[Gregoriak]

And two of these (1970 and 2006) were decided in ET.

If Italy was generally simply better than Germany, one would have assumed they'd be able to finish off a tired Germany in regular time...

[Lusankya]

Klinsmann's revenge for WC 06?

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1035616,00.jpg

[squidward123]

Going beyond the draw; any one care to predict the second round based on the results you feel might be favorable in you opinion.

I know this is reaching, but just curious to see how some of you believe this will play out, for fun!

well the way it's set out has made it predictable.

either portugal or czechs in round 2. both i think are comfortable for germany.

then back again to either croatia again, or the aforementioned team that you didn't just play. How stupid is that draw?

then italy in the final i guess.

[Cris 09]

well the way it's set out has made it predictable.

either portugal or czechs in round 2. both i think are comfortable for germany.

then back again to either croatia again, or the aforementioned team that you didn't just play. How stupid is that draw?

then italy in the final i guess.

Certainly a revision is needed. It does hurt the fact that two teams that are hosting are not considered a force in football to begin with. Though the Swiss have had some great performances as of late, most teams would much rather draw them than anyone else, other than Austria.

[arthur d]

well the way it's set out has made it predictable.

either portugal or czechs in round 2. both i think are comfortable for germany.

then back again to either croatia again, or the aforementioned team that you didn't just play. How stupid is that draw?

then italy in the final i guess.

I wouldn't rule out Switzerland and Poland just yet.

Anyway, does anyone know why the rules of the draw have changed so that you can't meet teams from the other bracket before the final? Good for Germany, but rather unfair to the teams in group C. Whoever goes through from group C might then have to play each other again in the semi... hmmm.

[bête noire]

Keep in mind that German players only started to become professional in the 1960s. At that point Italy already had a long tradition of professional football which surely played a favorable part in their meetings with national teams featuring non-professional players.

But since the effects of professionalism started to be felt within German football (late-60s/early 70s), the record between both countries is far less favorable for Italy.

Italy was a better team during the last 10 years, no one really doubts that, but the last 10 years have been exceptionally poor for German standards, let's not act as if they are representative historically.oh, what a disgrace of an argument.
"Match x and match y don't count because we were not good enough at the time".:rolleyes:
Previous records count for nothing, as does your "logic".
German fans have distinguished themselves as fair interlocutors, don't spoil that. Leave that crap to british fans

[WFU03]

For some reason, I think Austria (as bad as they've played) stands a decent chance of advancing. I think they can take a point off either Croatia or Poland and they will beat an already qualified Germany on the last matchday.

[nutbar]

For some reason, I think Austria (as bad as they've played) stands a decent chance of advancing. I think they can take a point off either Croatia or Poland and they will beat an already qualified Germany on the last matchday.

I don't know, I think Croatia and Germany will walk away with that group.

Austria - Germany is a big rivalry though, for the Austrians at least.

[The Jitty Slitter]

There's been some complaints over the last couple of days about trolling in this forum.

Please leave the national stereotypes at home

Thanks :)

[redstriker06]

Belgium was out after the first round in 2000.

That tournament was co-hosted with The Netherlands who advanced to the semis after winning their group and destroying Yugoslavia 6-1. So the theory stands. Switzerland will advance to the Semis, Austria will probably go out in the groups.

[The Jitty Slitter]

I wonder how that 2006 game had ended if Italy had had to beat Argentina in extra-time and a penalty shoot-out while Germany had strolled to an easy victory against Ukraine. The outcome would probably have been slightly different, also considering that Italy needed 118 minutes to score against Germany, who at that point had 238 minutes of World Cup football in their bones against two of the strongest national sides.

Italy could easily have been out when you consider the dive to cheat australia and the struggle against a 2nd rate US side.

[Sagy]

For some reason, I think Austria (as bad as they've played) stands a decent chance of advancing. I think they can take a point off either Croatia or Poland and they will beat an already qualified Germany on the last matchday.

Even if you are right, they will have a hard time advancing without a big victory over Germany (given your scenario). If the team they lost to wins the Croatia - Poland game, Austria is out. If the game ends in a tie, Austria is either out (if head to head is the first tie breaker) or it comes down to goal differential. If the team that Austria tied wins the Croatia - Poland game then it comes down to GD.

[gethomas3]

Keep in mind that German players only started to become professional in the 1960s. At that point Italy already had a long tradition of professional football which surely played a favorable part in their meetings with national teams featuring non-professional players.

But since the effects of professionalism started to be felt within German football (late-60s/early 70s), the record between both countries is far less favorable for Italy.

1970 Italy 4-3 Germany (Mexico City)
1974 Italy 0-0 Germany (Rome)
1977 Italy 1-2 Germany (Stuttgart)
1978 Italy 0-0 Germany (Buenos Aires)
1982 Italy 3-1 Germany (Madrid)
1984 Italy 0-1 Germany (Zürich)
1986 Italy 1-2 Germany (Avellino)
1987 Italy 0-0 Germany (Cologne)
1988 Italy 1-1 Germany (Düsseldorf)
1992 Italy 1-0 Germany (Turin)
1994 Italy 1-2 Germany (Stuttgart)
1995 Italy 0-2 Germany (Zürich)
1996 Italy 0-0 Germany (Manchester)
2003 Italy 1-0 Germany (Stuttgart)
2006 Italy 4-1 Germany (Florenz)
2006 Italy 2-0 Germany (Dortmund)

16 games:
Italy won 6
Germany won 5

Goals: 19-15 to Italy

And, as I already stated, three of Italy's six wins during that time frame came after beating a German side that was very tired from going through an extra-time match against a very strong opponent (England 1970, France 1982, Argentina 2006). It's strange how this is almost always ignored.

Italy was a better team during the last 10 years, no one really doubts that, but the last 10 years have been exceptionally poor for German standards, let's not act as if they are representative historically.

Dude, Italy is better, get over it!

Do you have any idea how many people have complained about German wins?

How about Switzerland 1954? Your coach pulled out all of the primary German players out of the Group game against Hungary and instead resorted to violence by kicking and punching. Ferenk Puskas, as a consequence didn't even play the quaterfinal or semifinal. He came in injured to play the final. Why did your coach did that? Because if West Germany would have beaten Hungary, they would face all the teams that came first in the group which meant facing the 1950 World Cup finalists, Brazil and the then-World Champions Uruguay. Hungary came into the last game tired, injured, and exhausted after beating the two forementioned. West Germany was practically given a bye into the final after easy wins over Yugoslavia and Austria. That is why I am not very impressed about the so-called "Miracle of Bern".

You also talked about Italy vs West Germany in the 1982 final. It wasn't that West Germany were tired...Italy was just really good! What do you expect when your team just finished defeating the two kings of South America?: Argentina, the then-World Champions, and Brazil, who had legends such as Zico, Cerezo, Socrates, Junior, Eder, and Falcao.

After beating both Argentina and Brazil, Italy were just on an all-time high! The faced Poland in the semifinals for the second time. In the group game, Italy rarely managed a tie against the Poles. But in the wake of its brilliant second-round performance, Italy easily dispatched Poland in the semifinal through two goals from Paolo Rossi, who was reborn in the match against Brazil. BTW, Poland wasn't exatly tired after the second round, neither.

In 1986, France took on and defeated the only two three-time World Champions, the then-World Champions Italy and Brazil who had basically the same team as in 1982. Two huge games in a row, and going to penalties against Brazil, was obviously a huge and exhausting process. West Germany beat a tired and exhausted France 2-0. To add insult to injury, they RARELY beat Morocco 1-0 in the second round and BARELY made it past Mexico in the quaterfinals in Monterrey (Anyone in CONCACAF can tell you that unless you play Mexico in the Azteca, you will most likely win. Anywhere else and shame on you).

I can pull more if you want. Just ask.

[gethomas3]

in 1970 germany FULLY deserved to win. even counting their bad finishing, the ref should have awarded a couple of clear penalties. especially uwe seeler.

in 1982 italy deserved it

in 2006 italy JUST deserved it. very, very close game.

There is no such thing as merit in football. If you win, you win. If you lose, you lose. Such things as deserving are for childish losers. There is, however, such a thing called robbing someone else.

[TheBoss84]

There is no such thing as merit in football. If you win, you win. If you lose, you lose. Such things as deserving are for childish losers.

The same goes for you my friend.;)

[guyarthur]

Italy could easily have been out when you consider the dive to cheat australia and the struggle against a 2nd rate US side.


Do you really want to start that crap about whether that was dive or not. No one is able to be objective on that point. Those who dislike Italy say it was a dive. Those who like Italy say it wasn't. And IMO after watching the video countless times, I'm still not sure. And if you still want to argue all I have to do is cut and paste from the old WC forum. But man, how boring would that be?

[The Jitty Slitter]

Do you really want to start that crap about whether that was dive or not. No one is able to be objective on that point. Those who dislike Italy say it was a dive. Those who like Italy say it wasn't. And IMO after watching the video countless times, I'm still not sure. And if you still want to argue all I have to do is cut and paste from the old WC forum. But man, how boring would that be?

Well i don't want to get into all that at all - merely pointing out that the wonderful Italian team of 2006 was actually not all that wonderful - and certainly not clearly better than Germany