Who are we blaming?

[E17Avenue]

This was posted in a thread that got hijacked so I am starting it off again here.

I had promised myself not to dwell on forums on this topic after watching the defeat, but I saw the subject of the original thread "let's be constructive" in the RSS feed and thought "I bet that's about England" so I came over.

What England have lacked is a decent manager. I don't care if they're from Hartlepool or Honduras. They just have to be able to stick to a plan and get the best out of their players. The list you rattled off proves it; we have enough talent in English football, we just need to get them to perform.

Blaming failure on the number of foreigners in the EPL is not a valid argument. People are complaining there are only about 90 English players used on any given weekend. That's about 4 per club. Seems small. But when we can't throw 11 on our own pitch and beat a country with 1/10th our population, I don't know how adding to that 90 will help.

You mentioned Agbonlahor. Finally. He's been proving himself week in week out with Villa and the U-21s, and of course he should play there for a while. But did they force Rooney and Owen to stay in the youth bracket? NO. They were drafted into the senior team sharpish. So why make the likes of Agbonlahor sit it out?

I think it's about time England B got a full list of fixtures. Anyone that is considered a fringe player gets a runout against Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Faroes, Andorra... all those minnows. They field their first team or close to it. And we work our way up or down the list depending on how experimental we want the team to be. Home games are played around the country like the U21s. This would allow players like Agbonlahor, Lita, and others who have graduated or are about to graduate from the U21 level a chance to continue wearing the three lions, without the pressure of a qualifying campaign. Then once they prove themselves at that level, they get pulled into the first team.

But yes, a manager is what we need. And when the Croats scored their 3rd goal I was distraught for a few seconds, but then I thought, well maybe it's just as well. Cos if we'd qualified with the current shambles we would have looked pretty stupid in what looks like the best Euro field in a while. At least we get the summer off to reflect and more time to mount an attack on the WC qualis, which is the real McCoy.

[Arsenal_pwns_all]

The list of people to blame:

-Lampard and Gerrard for being able to perform, yet being flops for their country
-Carson and Bridge, players who had the potential to break into the England squad but choked big time last night
-Owen for not being able to get himself fit
-J Cole, SWP, Barry, Crouch and Bent who tried but do not have the quality to be anything but squad players
-Defoe who years ago had the potential to be a good player but has wasted his potential
-Robinson for all the mistakes he made that pushed you-know-who to turn to Carson
-The Croatians and Russians who played with their heart

And most important of all you-know-who that didn't do enough to get rid of the mess in the England squad and let the rot continued.

Props have to go to anyone who booed the team at Wembley last night and got the team to wake up the bloody idea. For a while.

[Karloski]

I have to admit, even after all the dross I've watched over the campaign, I didn't think we were going to lose yesterday. Not because I think we are superior, just because it's not often you get second chances in football, and after being virtually out and getting another bite, I just couldn't see the players (despite McClaren) letting it slip for a second time.

So where does the blame lie? To me it's a combination of so many things I don't know where to start.

I stated before the match my concern about the formation being lined up. Having Crouch as a lone striker was nearly always going to lead to attack breaking down. The long balls up to him were a pointless exercise without a second striker to flick balls to. The croat defence had it pretty easy, he has no pace to get behind them and had no partner or quick enough support to play off. That's McClaren's fault.

I know it's like a broken record, but the Lampard/Gerrard issue just will never work on a consistent basis. Even with a seperate holding player they look lost when they're on the same pitch. It was criminal that it was Barry that made way (I know he was equally as shite) when the Gerrard and Lampard partnership had never worked in 5 years. That's McClaren fault.

The formation and a second striker should have been changed after 25 minutes. McClaren stood there watching his team fall to pieces and gave them no sign things were going to change. They were lucky they wer not more goals down at half time. McClaren's fault.

I dont blame McClaren for leaving Beckham out, there was a match fitness problem and and as he showed as an impact player it gave the crowd and team a boost if and when we really needed it (which we did).

Squad depth. Lets be honest we have an okay first team, but when these key players get injured our squad players are just not top international quality. Lescott, Bridge, Carson, SWP, Crouch. Their naivety and lack of composure at this level is staggering. Not McClaren's fault, but the youth system at grass roots needs a drastic overhaul.

Fear factor. A lot of people have said how these English players had no heart or passion last night. I can see why they think that when watching the game, but I really dont believe that. They seem lost and devoid of ideas whenever the chips are down and have to battle. It's as if there so scared of what might happen if they don't make it that they have a group panic attack. No creation when they have to score. Falling back too deep when holding on to a narrow lead or draw. Terry's an okay leader, but we need more to inspire and barate when we look like we're slipping into negative situations. It was the same in the World Cup, so McClaren can't be solely to blame. I do however think McClarens weak public image and sheer desperation at times seemed to carry over to the players a little. People often say teams are an image of the manager as a person. If thats the case we need someone who's in your face, confident, Tactically astute, passionate and has a never say die attitude. The totally opposite of McClaren in other words.

As hard as it is to not be there next summer, if we're being honest we just weren't good enough. Croatia impressed me last night they showed they really wanted it, in what was a meaningless game for them. People say there are no longer any easy internationals (which has some truth). France lost to Scotland, Russia to Israel along with so called other major nations. The biggest difference between them and us though, is that most of the time they batter the opposition and lose because of good defensive performances, we lose because we forget how to keep the ball, pass or make space. It's become embarrasing. We all got use to getting to major championships and being knocked out on penalties, Let's hope this gives the F.A and the players the kick up the ass they deserve.

[purpleronnie]

I blame the round thing england were kicking about.

[sinner78]

I blame the round thing england were kicking about.

I want my gran's y-fronts back ,pantie thief.

[mfw13]

I think at the most basic level you have to blame the FA. After all they're the ones who hired McLaren in the first place, something which caused much laughter around the world when it was first announced.

The bigger issues are twofold...first the lack of top-quality English managers, and second the lack of top-quality English keepers. When you think about it, it's rather damning that none of the top four clubs have either a English manager or an English keeper, as well as that it's been over ten years since either the Premier League or the FA Cup was won by a club managed by and Englishman. Could the same be said about any other league in the world?

Not until the FA develops a plan to remedy these two failures will England make a mark on the world game again...

[AnyLuckForEngland?]

Three problems. All large ones.

1. The FA. They are bumbling bastards of the worst kind. The problem is they are never held accountable. When the men in charge make bad decisions in politics, the disastrous ones: they get sacked. Why is the FA immune? To all the problems with Wembley before it finished, to the problems after it finished (Wembley should never be a bog like that, that's a school pitch.) They picked the wrong man and they knew it and they gave him a four year contract.

2. The manager. We need a good one. We don't have one. I feel like picking McClaren was a move that smacked of "English for England." Well picking an English twit didn't help us.

3. The players. We don't have depth and that seems partially to do with the fact that we play the same 11 unless there are injuries. We don't blood enough guys into the team and create a true fight for positions. Robinson should have been dropped before, but McClaren was so afraid to drop him...then inexplicably dropped him for Carson. It should be a fight. Every practice should be a fight for positions. Intensity needs to be brought back and forged through competition. Lampard knows he can play badly: he won't be dropped.

There is a fundamental lack of leadership in English football. From the FA going with the 30th choice because they felt insulted by Scolari and Hiddink because they wanted to assert their control of the situation and make them interview. WHAT?? Why do you care about interviews? THIS IS ENGLAND! ANYONE YOU NEED TO INTERVIEW FOR THE JOB ISN'T BLOODY GOOD ENOUGH TO BE THE MANAGER!

Their track records speak for themselves: Scolari and Hiddink have their interview process. It involves handing them money and having them sign a contract. If they sign the contract, they're in.

Then McClaren had no leadership at all, him holding that umbrella while England imploded was one of the defining moments in English football. The Croatian manager's team was playing for NOTHING BUT PRIDE and they played harder for England and he stood there with no umbrella, running around.

Then the players. I have seen John Terry play for Chelsea with a squad that would probably beat England any day of the week, but he is able to manage all those egos and make them follow him. He couldn't do it for England. I don't know if selecting him for captain over Gerrard was bad or not. Gerrard hasn't played either. I do feel that the captain should be a midfielder, because he can speak to the referee on our behalf.

[CityFan19]

Three problems. All large ones.

3. The players. We don't have depth and that seems partially to do with the fact that we play the same 11 unless there are injuries. We don't blood enough guys into the team and create a true fight for positions. Robinson should have been dropped before, but McClaren was so afraid to drop him...then inexplicably dropped him for Carson. It should be a fight. Every practice should be a fight for positions. Intensity needs to be brought back and forged through competition. Lampard knows he can play badly: he won't be dropped.



I Agree with your post, the chief problem is the FA...and the academies fail the clubs and the clubs/league fail the national team.

The problem is, with a major tournament every two years, the national team is constantly in the midst of an important qualification. When then can you take a step back and concentrate on blooding the youth into the national team? In that regard, McClaren did all that he can do: Nugent, Young, Bentley, Lennon, Richards, et.al all got looks....the problem is that when they didn't get results, he was forced to go back to his most experienced players. Even the friendlies were designed to prepare for Euro qualification, which is understandable.

For me, the Prem is the most exciting, and probably the wealthiest league in the world; but Italy, France, and Germany are home to more World Cup or Euro finalists than the Prem (Italy has been home to players that have made 75 WC or Euro final appearances since '98 compared to England's 24). Again, I think the academies fail the clubs, and the clubs/league fail the national team. And it is in the dubious hands of the FA to do something about it. Get the drinks in.

I have a thread about this here: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=625352

[AnyLuckForEngland?]

Were they legitimate looks though? He let them play for 15 minutes, hooray for that.

The thing is, he was so afraid to let any of those guys start...make a real contribution. Then did crazy things like start Lescott.

[1nverness Demon]

Well the English FA has stated in so many words the entire senior team is going to be rooted so I think the shirt salesman gone to Hollywood Beckham might have played his last match for the national side. Actually the entire senior team should be rooted. This group will never get anywhere. The under 21 team shows desire & talent & looks to be a strong senior side in the future but not the present one. Everyone which includes the English FA board needs to have their heads stuck in a blender! What a pathetic bunch they are.:eek:

[cromagnum]

always blaming someone..i have an idea how about giving some credit to croatia who played a very good match..as slaven bilic said WAKE UP CROATIA WAS THE BETTER TEAM..

[glennaldo_sf]

always blaming someone..i have an idea how about giving some credit to croatia who played a very good match..as slaven bilic said WAKE UP CROATIA WAS THE BETTER TEAM..

No one is denying Croatia's abilities cromagnum... it's just not only this match that everyone is furious about. It was Croatia, Russia, Israel, Macedonia, Andorra, etc...

[fernb8]

3. The players. We don't have depth and that seems partially to do with the fact that we play the same 11 unless there are injuries. We don't blood enough guys into the team and create a true fight for positions. Robinson should have been dropped before, but McClaren was so afraid to drop him...then inexplicably dropped him for Carson. It should be a fight. Every practice should be a fight for positions. Intensity needs to be brought back and forged through competition. Lampard knows he can play badly: he won't be dropped.


So quick to point the finger at Lampard, but your beloved Gerrard has been shyte the last few matches. So why no calls for him to be dropped/subbed?

Player power is not limited to just a select few, unfortunately under McSven it was several players who should have been dropped/subbed but never were.

Other than that I agree with mostly everything else you said.

[AnyLuckForEngland?]

So quick to point the finger at Lampard, but your beloved Gerrard has been shyte the last few matches. So why no calls for him to be dropped/subbed?

Player power is not limited to just a select few, unfortunately under McSven it was several players who should have been dropped/subbed but never were.

Other than that I agree with mostly everything else you said.

Gerrard has been dropped before, Lampard and Gerrard have been shite for England lately.

But Gerrard is not as one-dimensional as Lampard and he did consistently track back to actually play defense. I really felt with Lampard rarely running back that it was like we were playing 11 on 10.

But yes, Lampard and Gerrard would be dropped by most teams.

[Juan Carlos II]

I blame the French; this has no bearing whatsoever on our failure to qualify for Euro 2008 but it makes me feel a whole lot better. Sweaty Frogs.

[Amsteldam]

I'm still in shock!!

How the fark England can't qualify is mind-boggling

[lynne]

I was surprised that when the score was 2-2 and all England had to do was hold on, that they were pushing forward for another goal. Seemed like the more correct managerial move would have been to clog up the midfield and make it too hard for Croatia to get another goal. So, that I thought was really down to McClaren. (Plus I thought it was really poor form for him to just leave the field at the end rather than see that his players were ok.)

[AnyLuckForEngland?]

Really? I got the distinct impression that England truly took the foot off the pedal after tying it.

Instead of pushing for a go ahead goal, they sat back and the intensity dropped.

[lynne]

Really? I got the distinct impression that England truly took the foot off the pedal after tying it.

Instead of pushing for a go ahead goal, they sat back and the intensity dropped.

I watched the England game and then the Portugal game. Both teams were in the same position -- all they needed was a tie to go thru. Best I could tell, the Portugal game was played entirely at the Finland end of the field. Finland got 3 shots off the entire game. Finland isn't as good a team as Croatia, but Finland actually had to win the game -- Croatia was just playing.

I realize that England had to chase the game for most of it, but they were successful at that! and got back to their 2-2 tie. So why didn't they switch back to a 4-5-1 and clog the midfield? Or at least slow the game down and stop giving the ball instantly to the other team? (it was the 75th minute and DB passes out of the backfield to an offside Peter Crouch. 2 minutes later Croatia score.). If DB had held onto the ball, slowed the game way down and passed around the backfield? This isn't to blame DB, but the England team must be able hold onto the ball, pass around the back, give it to the goal keeper. They just kept barreling in and giving the ball back to Croatia.

That seems like a very elementary coaching move, so that's why I'm actually blaming the coach for a change.

[Jimmie O']

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7109058.stm

Looks like it was all Tony Henry's fault :D