Players? Manager? or both

[Andyobri]

The players were poor, lacking belief and tactical ability and skill to dominate over a variety of countries, Isralis, Macadonia, Russia (Away), Croatia (Home & Away). Some of these things are down to the mager, his experimenting with formation, 3-5-2 for croatia, 4-5-1 again croatia but surly The england players can cope with this or are we so one dimensional with our play that we can't do tactics of any sort. With 4-4-2 it is effective but teams can match us at international level.
Gerrards time as an England midfielder is short, Beckham is now a squad player, Lampard has his critics, the defence is growing and we are solid(apart from last night, Mr. Bridge). We can build on that.
Every man in the street could pick an England squad to match most in the world, but the mangment is in the 11 that start the game.
Mcdonout has used 36 or so players this campaign that shows me that he is clueless as to his best 11. The croats have played together for years and know whats happening, england play as a team of strangers, and whos fault is that?

[Harry Boulton]

The players are great for their clubs every week.

If tey are sent out with a poor game plan and flawed tactics then that is the managements fault.

McClaren has gone and good riddance.....

[thebigman]

players were just as terrible as mclaren

regardless what youve been told to do, the gerrards of this world should grab the game by the scruff of the neck and play their hearts out....which they diddnt

[Andyobri]

players were just as terrible as mclaren

regardless what youve been told to do, the gerrards of this world should grab the game by the scruff of the neck and play their hearts out....which they diddnt

I agreee, it seemed this world class aspect of his play deserted him, (what world class play) he has not played well in an england shirt for a while nor for livrpool, with Lampard in the team he goes missing, Liv play a defensive mid every time because gerrard cannot defend, his passing was awful defending awful, attacking awful, leadership awful. Why did he get lost.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Yeah, McSven had been stupid with certain decisions but ultimately it is the so-called 'world class' players who are to blame. You can have a shit manager but it is no excuse for going out and consistently playing poorly, which is exactly what his big players did.

[Karloski]

We have a good first eleven. The rest of the squad are not top quality. Half of them can't even get a game for their club, that for me says it all. The replacements yesterday were not good enough to face a top international team, and the more established players looked lost in the system, as well losing the ability to kick a ball. To be honest, even if i'd tried to imagine the worst scenerio before the match, I wouldn't have thought of that game.

[sinner78]

seeing the pitch ploughed up from the american football game summed it up.
even the numbers were still on the pitch.
the fact that it pissed it down also summed it up.

[sportscribe]

A lot of the blame certainly has to go to the overrated players. There's only so much a manager can do.

[purpleronnie]

Yes the players play well every week for their team but thats because they are surrounded by very good foreign players.

[Matt Clark]

seeing the pitch ploughed up from the american football game summed it up.
even the numbers were still on the pitch.
the fact that it pissed it down also summed it up.

Summed what up? The reason's for England's loss? I'd have thought the thread starter was closer with his idea that crap tactics and awful individual performances were to blame.

[white riot]

A lot of the blame certainly has to go to the overrated players. There's only so much a manager can do.


Overrated by who?

[Matt Clark]

Yes the players play well every week for their team but thats because they are surrounded by very good foreign players.
:rolleyes:

Oh please. What a crock. Yeah - the England players are artless hacks who, by the magic of proximity to exotic foreign colleagues, are transformed into the players we see when we go to EPL games week in, week out.

That's quite a spot of alchemy.

[Hyuuga Neji]

seeing the pitch ploughed up from the american football game summed it up.
even the numbers were still on the pitch.
the fact that it pissed it down also summed it up.

Wait, are you blaming the pitch? C'mon now

[Hyuuga Neji]

As a neutral observer, I can tell you that it was a bit of both, really. McClaren didn't put his players in a position to win every game. But when it comes down to it, it has to be the players responsibilty. The players win the games, not the manager. They have to come out with the heart and passion to win the game. Honestly, if England can't beat teams like Israel and Macedonia then they didn't deserve to qualify. I think the England NT has really let their countrymen down

[sinner78]

Wait, are you blaming the pitch? C'mon now

the miserable conditions seemed to just sum up the whole night.
the tactics were the main factor obviously.
dont get me wrong ,big boy

[fleeter]

And you thought you were feeling depressed. I thought this was quite a nice way to deal with the disappointment...

http://beefbagel.com/fob/2007/11/dear-bagel/

[Andy Bennett]

Yes the players play well every week for their team but thats because they are surrounded by very good foreign players.
Oh give it a f<kcing rest will yer, dipshit.

Yeah, blokes like Lampard, Rooney, Terry, Gerrard, etc. etc. get picked every week by their (foreign) managers so that the 'chemistry' of the superior quality imported player can rub off and work it's magic, eh? Idiot!

[Andy Bennett]

The campaign wasn't lost in the game last night, although that wasn't our finest hour. It was lost in the draws and stuff we did against the teams like Macedonia. If we'd have got the win against them, with most of our best players available, it wouldn't have mattered that we lost last night.

[el_urchinio]

Couple of points.

Firstly, McClaren must be one of the more gullible managers around. I understand that pessimistic Russian fans would believe that there was a fix in the air, and that having qualified already, Croatia just didn't care enough to go out of their way to help Russia, but it boggles the mind that McClaren would actually believe this as well. How else does one explain the formation and the player selection that seemed tailor made for a bore draw? Did he not bother reading the papers? Did it not seem unusual that the Croatian coach, a declared Anglophile, would go far and beyond the usual rhetoric about "doing one's best" and "we're not going to play for a draw?" Did it not seem like something was afoot when Bilic announced his squad shortly before the game, and it was not only Croatia's strongest 11, but also contained two proper strikers? And why wait for the half-time to throw on more attacking options? Was it not obvious at 2-0 that Croatia's intention was to win, and win as convincingly as possible? What exactly was that 4-5-1 formation going to accomplish in the last 30 minutes of the first half? The naïveté shown by McClaren was nothing short of shocking. All tactical mistakes and selection mistakes aside, that he would actually believe in the conspiracy theories is ludicrous.

Secondly, there was a poignant moment last night during the game that really summed it all up. After Croatia scored the third goal, the players ran towards their fans to celebrate in a huddle. As the players were heading back to the centre circle, a fan tossed a Croatian flag onto the pitch. Nico Kovac, Croatia's captain, noticed it, turned around, picked up the flag so it wouldn't sit there in the rain and mud, and handed it to someone in the crowd. Really symptomatic of the attitudes towards the team. Croatia had 5 players on the pitch at the end of the game who had a choice about which country to play their international football for. Kovac brothers are German-born, Simunic is from Canberra, and Rakitic and Petric both played for Swiss youth selections. When it came time to pledge their international careers to one country for good, they all chose Croatia in a heartbeat. Most Croatia players play for their country with the intensity they rarely show on club level.

On the other hand, England last night was captained by a player who cares infinitely more about his club side than he ever will about England. And he's probably not the only one, either. And I don't know what the reason is. Maybe it's the manager not being able to motivate them. Maybe it's a certain lack of national pride. Maybe that pride is hard to create when you don't even have a national anthem. I don't know, but I do know that I've never seen Gerrard play for England with the same fire, drive, and passion as he does for Liverpool.

[herewego]

No, I'm not english, but I like the english football and think, that a big tournament without english team and supporters will not be the same. I will miss something.

And I'm surely not an expert of the english football structures, as most of the english writers on this board are.

But allow me to talk of 2 points that came into my mind first:

1. Why don't your PL Club reserve teams play in ordinary competitions?
All big leagues have their problems with foreigners blocking starting places for the homegrown youth. But one can handle this problem a bit, if you allow the reserve teams to play in the ordinary 2nd or 3rd league.

It's important for talented youth players, to have the chance to make there experience with playing against real men.
In England there are only two possibillities: a handful of the outstanding 17 year olds get the chance to play with and against adults in the PL, many of them starting to young which leads to burn-out or chronic injuries before reaching the age of 25.
On the other hand, all the other U23 players have to stay in the reserve round and play without any real competition against elder players.
Both is wrong, young players must get chances to grow slowly, but part of their education must be the experience of real competition and how to play on the adult level.
In Spain or Germany or many other countries, the 2nd teams are allowed to play in the real league competitions, up to a certain level of course.
In Germany almost every Bundesliga club has a 2nd team in the 3rd or 4th league.
Only difference to regular 3rd league teams: they are not allowed to get promoted to the 2nd league, they have to field not more than 3 over age 23 players and they are allowed to pick players of their second team at any time of the season for games in the first team.
That gives the clubs the chance, to educate the young players, keep them in a noticable competition even if the are not good enough for Bundesliga yet, and to give game practice to first team players after injuries.


2. Think about a winter break, about reducing the number of games over all. Maybe reduce the PL to 18 clubs, maybe get rid of Carling Cup.
Of course, lesser club games will cost some TV money, but it benefits the national team, if the players are not coming out of steam to the tournaments in summer and if the NT management has a bit more practice time.

I think, the loss of reputation for the whole english football, when not qualifying for the Euro is much more expensive. Clearly for the FA, when no Ads with the NT will be needed or no Umbro Euro 2008 shirts will be sold, but as well the clubs will notice, that their english players will lose on transfer and marketing worth, when they are not performing at the biggest stage.

Over all, shirts, pubs, tv rights, travelling agencies, clubs, players, the english football economy will at least lose 1bln. pound of turn-over next summer, money that will now stay out of the football circuit and never reach the clubs.
Umbro cannot pay licence fees for not sold shirts, Rooneys consultant cannot receive his percentage of non existing Nike ads, and no english player will be on the cover of EA Sports Euro 2008 while Ryan air can concentrate on Mallorca.