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View Full Version : Let's get constructive


barroldinho
22 Nov 2007, 01:20 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A29361909#commentbox

This is just one of many many ridiculous reactions to England's failure to reach Euro 2008. I post it because it is an example of the kind of attitude that irritates me from the England "faithful".

England isn't in a dire state. This isn't the death of English football. It is simply the fact that we have not had the right manager for a while. Hoddle was an average choice, Keegan had shown promise, but in truth has never withstood pressure well as a manager and Eriksson produced a bland workmanlike brand of footy that produced results for a while but did little to tap into the teams overall potential.

But we get the masses of melodramatic complaints like the one above about the state of "grass-roots football". So Shaun Wright-Phillips and Joe Cole lack skill? David Beckham isn't consistent at providing assists? John Terry is not an excellent defender? Frank Lampard is not one of the most prolific goal-scoring midfielders in the world? Peter Crouch and Michael Owen don't score regularly at International level?

In one argument, the premiership is so inundated with foreign stars that the poor English wonderkids are prevented from ever developing. In the other, the home-grown stars of the premiership who shine among these players are 'overrated'.

It's pants. I'll tell you what's wrong with English football. Richard Wright, Robert Green, Paul Robinson and David James are all very competent Goalkeepers. They've all made mistakes or done something that has deemed them near unselectable in the eyes of England, be it the manager, the press or the vocal, whining fans. It will now be a while before Carson starts for England again. He is a young, developing, talented keeper, but now he will just be the guy who failed against Croatia. Personally, I'd put him straight into the next England game. He has potential, shouldn't have been thrust into the role yet, but he now needs to get another international under his belt to get his confidence back. This won't happen, because we judge one poor international performance as make or break.

Joe Cole had some strong performances at the World Cup. One game where he didn't do anything spectacular but also did nothing really wrong and we had pundits saying what a quiet game he'd had. Ditto SWP against Russia. Beckham was involved in about four goals in the same competition, but it was universally decided that he was to blame for pretty much the whole Sven era and he was supposedly "right to be dropped". Suddenly the incompatible Gerrard and Lampard were failing, chances were in short supply and people started to realise that Beckham actually offered a little more than he was given credit for.

In a move that was more luck than judgement, McClaren selected Gareth Barry to play in Midfield with Gerrard. Suddenly 3-0 became a regular scoreline. Finally the concept of a midfield comprised of players complementing each other was realised. Unfortunately McClaren seemed to miss this somewhere. "Ooh, but Lampard's on form!" they cried. Then Gerrard should have been dropped.

Can you imagine this? A midfield where you get a choice between Barry Carrick and Hargreaves as anchor men, Lampard or Gerrard as attacking midfielders? Scott Parker, Nigel Reo-Coker and maybe even Jermaine Jenas waiting in the wings? A right wing with a choice of Wright-Phillips, Beckham, Lennon or Bentley? Up front we've already got Rooney and Owen, Crouch who has now surely proven he can score regularly for England (and yes we all know he had a period for Liverpool when he couldn't score but isn't it time we realised that it was simply poor form?). Heskey did well recently, Darren Bent, Dean Ashton and Andy Johnson are all more than competent at club level and haven't been given anything like a realistic run. I mean I haven't even mentioned Agbonlahor yet.

I don't see a lack of personnel or young talent in England. I see a continuation of poor management decisions, of trying to cram as many big names into a first XI as possible with actual roles left as an after-thought. I see a continued bias towards selection from bigger clubs (though admittedly, this was something McClaren was a little better about). I still remember the days when Phil Neville wasn't playing for Man U, wasn't looking that great when he did, yet was still playing for England.

Italy and Spain produce plenty of quality players despite foreign players in their leagues. Top internationals at the big clubs simply mean that the up-and-coming Englishmen go elsewhere. They stay in England not because Europe isn't interested, but because they can make more money at home. Yet England Manager's seem terrified of selecting a consistent player for a smaller team because he might have to tell 'Lamps' or 'Stevie G' that they're on the bench.

There isn't a crisis, there is a collection of quality players waiting to be moulded into a team that brings out the best in them. Should we expect to win the World Cup? Nope. Nobody should. The top level of international football is too competitive to assume you're going to win. But with the right man at the helm, with a team inspired and directed into producing their best, with a system that takes advantage of the distinctive pace and tempo of English football, we can at least enjoy watching them try.

As of now we need to use the next year as a grace period to create a team that works, without the pressure of producing competitively for an overly harsh, overly expectant media and the sheep that swallow their melodrama.


English football is suffering from a screw-up, not a crisis.

CherryBomb
22 Nov 2007, 01:37 AM
Everybody has an opinion. England all of a sudden is pretty popular.

Christ. A Man U sycophant even has one.

How long did you stalk before coming in for the kill?

Big balls
22 Nov 2007, 02:04 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A29361909#commentbox



England isn't in a dire state. This isn't the death of English football. It is simply the fact that we have not had the right manager for a while. Hoddle was an average choice, Keegan had shown promise, but in truth has never withstood pressure well as a manager and Eriksson produced a bland workmanlike brand of footy that produced results for a while but did little to tap into the teams overall potential.
.

So this old manager myth has made it all the way to California. The sooner actual Englishmen stop blaming the manager the better. Well ok, Macca was a clown that wanted to make his mark so he "mixed things up" and England lost the Euro spot to Russia. The other managers above, there was nothing wrong with them really. It's just easier to blame the manager instead of the team.

CherryBomb
22 Nov 2007, 02:10 AM
So this old manager myth has made it all the way to California. The sooner actual Englishmen stop blaming the manager the better. Well ok, Macca was a clown that wanted to make his mark so he "mixed things up" and England lost the Euro spot to Russia. The other managers above, there was nothing wrong with them really. It's just easier to blame the manager instead of the team.

Whatever it takes for you to join the forum and admit you love England. When you're not pretending to be Swedish that is. Speaking of that, I'm confused. Earlier you didn't claim Sweden. Now you do. Weird. And the only thing Swedish about you is that you seem to roll over for more aggressive men. Still I'm not convinced.

Big balls
22 Nov 2007, 02:16 AM
Whatever it takes for you to join the forum and admit you love England. When you're not pretending to be Swedish that is. Speaking of that, I'm confused. Earlier you didn't claim Sweden. Now you do. Weird. And the only thing Swedish about you is that you seem to roll over for more aggressive men. Still I'm not convinced.


Huh ?, my location has been the same since I signed up. How much have you had to drink tonight ??

barroldinho
22 Nov 2007, 02:19 AM
So this old manager myth has made it all the way to California. The sooner actual Englishmen stop blaming the manager the better. Well ok, Macca was a clown that wanted to make his mark so he "mixed things up" and England lost the Euro spot to Russia. The other managers above, there was nothing wrong with them really. It's just easier to blame the manager instead of the team.

I am English. I've lived in California since January. Hoddle was okay. Nothing more, nothing less. He went after some badly-put comments about the after-life. He's hardly set the world alight in management since. However, faith-healers and a penchant for making harsh criticisms about players in public never sat to well with me. Keegan threw away the premiership with Newcastle by panicking when the going got tough. He then bottled it with England midway through a qualifying campaign. Sven did a little better, but despite picking up results at a reasonable rate, our performances were far from stellar and we were usually found out against the more challenging teams.

As for 'picking up the myth', my comments are based on my own observations and opinions. I maintain Gerrard and Lampard can't play together. If it's the team, how come they perform for their clubs? How come when the untouchable duo of Lampard and Gerrard were forcibly changed, did performances (including the loss to Russia) improve?

CherryBomb
22 Nov 2007, 02:29 AM
Huh ?, my location has been the same since I signed up. How much have you had to drink tonight ??

A "Swede" asking ME how much I've had to drink? Have you ever even met a Swede before?

Travel more son.

E17Avenue
22 Nov 2007, 02:37 AM
I certainly agree with the OP. I had promised myself not to dwell on forums on this topic after watching the defeat, but I saw the subject in the RSS feed and thought "I bet that's about England" so I came over.

What England have lacked is a decent manager. I don't care if they're from Hartlepool or Honduras. They just have to be able to stick to a plan and get the best out of their players. The list you rattled off proves it; we have enough talent in English football, we just need to get them to perform.

Blaming failure on the number of foreigners in the EPL is not a valid argument. People are complaining there are only about 90 English players used on any given weekend. That's about 4 per club. Seems small. But when we can't throw 11 on our own pitch and beat a country with 1/10th our population, I don't know how adding to that 90 will help.

You mentioned Agbonlahor. Finally. He's been proving himself week in week out with Villa and the U-21s, and of course he should play there for a while. But did they force Rooney and Owen to stay in the youth bracket? NO. They were drafted into the senior team sharpish. So why make the likes of Agbonlahor sit it out?

I think it's about time England B got a full list of fixtures. Anyone that is considered a fringe player gets a runout against Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Faroes, Andorra... all those minnows. They field their first team or close to it. And we work our way up or down the list depending on how experimental we want the team to be. Home games are played around the country like the U21s. This would allow players like Agbonlahor, Lita, and others who have graduated or are about to graduate from the U21 level a chance to continue wearing the three lions, without the pressure of a qualifying campaign. Then once they prove themselves at that level, they get pulled into the first team.

But yes, a manager is what we need. And when the Croats scored their 3rd goal I was distraught for a few seconds, but then I thought, well maybe it's just as well. Cos if we'd qualified with the current shambles we would have looked pretty stupid in what looks like the best Euro field in a while. At least we get the summer off to reflect and more time to mount an attack on the WC qualis, which is the real McCoy.

Big balls
22 Nov 2007, 02:40 AM
I am English. I've lived in California since January. Hoddle was okay. Nothing more, nothing less. He went after some badly-put comments about the after-life. He's hardly set the world alight in management since. However, faith-healers and a penchant for making harsh criticisms about players in public never sat to well with me. Keegan threw away the premiership with Newcastle by panicking when the going got tough. He then bottled it with England midway through a qualifying campaign. Sven did a little better, but despite picking up results at a reasonable rate, our performances were far from stellar and we were usually found out against the more challenging teams.

As for 'picking up the myth', my comments are based on my own observations and opinions. I maintain Gerrard and Lampard can't play together. If it's the team, how come they perform for their clubs? How come when the untouchable duo of Lampard and Gerrard were forcibly changed, did performances (including the loss to Russia) improve?

I agree in some ways but in the end, it wasn't Hoddle, Keegan (who was quite crappy) or SGE that is to blame. It's the players who's responsible. Having Mourinho or Hiddink as the manager isn't gonna make a huge difference. They'll just end up in the group of inadequate managers you spoke of.

barroldinho
22 Nov 2007, 02:57 AM
I agree in some ways but in the end, it wasn't Hoddle, Keegan (who was quite crappy) or SGE that is to blame. It's the players who's responsible. Having Mourinho or Hiddink as the manager isn't gonna make a huge difference. They'll just end up in the group of inadequate managers you spoke of.

Actually Mourinho would be great. Knows English footy, played Lampard to his strengths, had a number of the current team under him at Chelsea. But would he want the job?

msk06
22 Nov 2007, 03:45 AM
Whatever it takes for you to join the forum and admit you love England. When you're not pretending to be Swedish that is. Speaking of that, I'm confused. Earlier you didn't claim Sweden. Now you do. Weird. And the only thing Swedish about you is that you seem to roll over for more aggressive men. Still I'm not convinced.
Well since you're attacking people on thier Profile information...

Hmmm, a Chealsea and LA Galaxy fan. Do you enjoy jumping on bandwagons?

I guess with all this misery you're having with England it's just fair that you support a winner.

sinner78
22 Nov 2007, 03:53 AM
Well since you're attacking people on thier Profile information...

Hmmm, a Chealsea and LA Galaxy fan. Do you enjoy jumping on bandwagons?

I guess with all this misery you're having with England it's just fair that you support a winner.


Some opinions are wanted and some arent.
Im not surprised cherry is wound up after a night a reading this shiit.

msk06
22 Nov 2007, 04:06 AM
Some opinions are wanted and some arent.
Im not surprised cherry is wound up after a night a reading this shiit.
Yeah well some get wound up and some are just d**k heads.

I get wound up when I see all this little racial taunt crap the English give to anyone and everyone when they crack the s*its.

Your team lost, get over it.

Prenn
22 Nov 2007, 04:09 AM
Yeah well some get wound up and some are just d**k heads.

I get wound up when I see all this little racial taunt crap the English give to anyone and everyone when they crack the s*its.

Your team lost, get over it.

It's that kind of attitude that pisses people off.

Thread closed.