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Harry Boulton
20 Nov 2007, 08:47 AM
I think you might wanna do some calculations on that score. The ins to outs expenditure of Fergie throughout the 90's was superb. Our spending, as johno said, changed after that


My point revolves around certain transfers such as Keane, Pallister, Berg, Stam, Cole all being record transfers in some ways. Keane was a record transfer, so were Pallister, Berg and Andy Cole. The season we won the treble we spet £10m on Stam, £12m on Yorke and a couple million on Blomqvist, which was by far the highest spending in the league. Fergie's in/out ratio generally equals out but Man Utd have rarely been short of money, not in my experience as a supporter and follower anyway. With Chelsea being the exception Man Utd generally spend more than most.


Erm, I'm not sure what you're getting at or how you've reached this conclusion. Again, can you elaborate?


No problem. Maybe I took the point the wrong way, but it seemed to me that you were perhaps dismissing the younger supporters grand expectations as naive with this paragraph:


Now, for any fan that started following the club after that season’s events I can understand the difficulty they would have in truly comprehending the emotions and atmosphere of such a feat, especially given that in the last three or four years the bar has been raised beyond recognition to the point where a treble is feasible and the emergence of a team that was simply bought and put together in a season or two and reasonably could achieve the treble or even a quadruple given their backing and the kind of squad it has enabled them to assemble on a whim, has the true worth of a treble diminished greatly.


Suggesting perhaps that they couldn't possibly understand what it was like watching or enjoying that feat is not something I agree with. The value of the "treble" is not under-valued in my opinion in any way, and I don't think many people take it for-granted either. Suggestions of a possible treble or even a quadruple are brought about when players come out and say they want to win everything (see Drogba at the start of last season) and the press mis-quote them. That then feeds fan fever, but it's definitely started by the media. What's more, with squads like Man Utd's and Chelsea's who are hands down better than everyone elses such suggestions are, on paper, not so ludicrous when thought about logically.

Like I say, I may have the wrong end of the stick. But it seems little dismissive as if to suggest "you might not understand".


I'm sorry but that's not accurate. Go on any Utd forum or listen in at pubs or the banter at games and it won't take long before you hear mutterings about trebles if we're in a good or great vain of form. I definitely don't see it in the press as much as I've heard or seen it from our own fans.


What I see alot of is players saying "we're the best in the league" and then Sun or the Express runs the headline "We Want the Treble". When in actual fact talk of the treble was never mentioned by either player, manager or fan. They were simply commenting on the strength of the squad. The media defintely revel in mis-quoting players and managers and creating a fever of expectation.


I don't think you've read the parts you should read in that piece...

The very last sentence after the comma: when surely the time to even think that way would be at the back end of April or even mid-May?

which is basically what you've just said...


Conceded, I mid-read that maybe. But towards the end of last season, treble talk was not so much foolish, but hopeful in the light of such a position we found ourselves in. But a great many fans on here stated that, come the end of the season, they did not think we would win the treble. They said it might be done because it could), but chances are we'd settle for the league and maybe FA Cup. My expectations at the start of last season were to simply close the gap that Chelsea had created. We did more than that and, as a result, expectations this year are up. That is because we exceeded expectations, not because fans de-value success or because they are naive about it.

Teso Dos Bichos
20 Nov 2007, 12:00 PM
My point revolves around certain transfers such as Keane, Pallister, Berg, Stam, Cole all being record transfers in some ways. Keane was a record transfer, so were Pallister, Berg and Andy Cole. The season we won the treble we spet £10m on Stam, £12m on Yorke and a couple million on Blomqvist, which was by far the highest spending in the league. Fergie's in/out ratio generally equals out but Man Utd have rarely been short of money, not in my experience as a supporter and follower anyway. With Chelsea being the exception Man Utd generally spend more than most.

The treble season was the first that Man Utd topped the spending charts. Granted we did spend a reasonable amount on certain key players but despite that our rivals regularly spent more. After the 90's we did have a few seasons of big spending but that was because we targeted the best available players to complete the puzzle and did so at the height of the transfer market. From memory, we have only outspent our Premiership rivals in three seasons (out of sixteen).

Republic of Mancunia
20 Nov 2007, 05:29 PM
In my limited time as a United fan, I've been upset at certain transitions. I'm wondering from some of the older fans if they remember how they felt during the transitions between these great teams. DS was so upset about Hughes going that he almost hated Fergie. (*gasp*) I assume some of the other people here have similar memories.

Well that summer felt like the biggest upheaval of them all for me. I wasn't really that bothered about Ince. Maybe I should've for football reasons but I was still somewhat naive. Kanchelskis and Hughes I was upset by, mainly because I was going to miss them as they were two of my favourites. Overall, I can't say I really thought about what it might mean to the team as much I should've although I did think we might struggle without them. The overall feeling I remember was just being sad and brooding over it. :(

Looking back, in general terms, most of the other transitions seemed smoother to me as they were taking place. Key players who were starting every week for the most part retired or moved on to what people might consider lesser teams and my feelings for the were usually ones of appreciation and understanding when they left. Hughes probably should have fitted that category but he was such a favourite of mine that I didn't see it and the other two going might have compounded what I thought of it at the same time.

Suppose it's been quite rare that we've sold anyone who I've felt still had a fair bit to give. There's been the odd individual case of it, not just limited to the three sides that DS highlights here but they often had other circumstances going on that made the sale understandable in a way (Ruud, Beckham for two). To move all three of those on at the same time was a big deal to me.

Harry Boulton
22 Nov 2007, 05:10 AM
I was bemused and upset by Stams sale. I thought he was the best defender in the world and the fact that SAF brought in Laurent Blanc to replace him confused me even more....

Ruud v.Nistelrooy 10
23 Nov 2007, 07:19 PM
magnificent piece

i had to read it in 3 pieces due to school commitments but its worth it considering i missed out on the first two teams since i was new to watching footy in 97-98 and wasnt quite there with realizing all the details of the infamous and legendary 99 team

thanks

Dark Savante
30 Nov 2007, 01:02 PM
Next part won't be up this week. Haven't had the time.

Gregoriak
30 Nov 2007, 03:33 PM
A brilliant piece of work really worth reading, even if you're not a fan of Manchester United Football Club.

Since I can't concentrate on reading lengthy pieces of text online, I printed it all out and read it while getting to work. A real page-turner!!

There's something I would like to comment on and that is Ferguson complaining about the 3-foreigners-rule. I don't see it being unfair to Manchester United or English clubs in general. I infact believe it was long-overdue. All European clubs were not allowed to field more than 2 (later 3) foreign players in international competition only for English clubs UEFA made an exception, as they could field as many non-English players as they liked, as long as they were British. But in football terms, being Scottish or Northerin Irish or Welsh is being "foreign". Instead of complaining about being "disadvantaged", English clubs finally got to taste how it was for all other European clubs for decades.

Dark Savante
01 Dec 2007, 07:31 AM
A brilliant piece of work really worth reading, even if you're not a fan of Manchester United Football Club.

Since I can't concentrate on reading lengthy pieces of text online, I printed it all out and read it while getting to work. A real page-turner!!

There's something I would like to comment on and that is Ferguson complaining about the 3-foreigners-rule. I don't see it being unfair to Manchester United or English clubs in general. I infact believe it was long-overdue. All European clubs were not allowed to field more than 2 (later 3) foreign players in international competition only for English clubs UEFA made an exception, as they could field as many non-English players as they liked, as long as they were British. But in football terms, being Scottish or Northerin Irish or Welsh is being "foreign". Instead of complaining about being "disadvantaged", English clubs finally got to taste how it was for all other European clubs for decades.

How many pages is it in print?

I think we've broached the issue of the 3 foreigner rule in the BG forum a few times. It's a fair point you raise, but understanding the difference between what has always been an heavily integrated game amongst the British Isles+Ireland and its nations and that of the other nations is paramount.

'Foreign' for us is any player outside of that reach and I think that when the game here has always been so immersive amongst its own Isles, that's a fair distinction, one which I don't think SAF would have complained about - losing the Isles players was a bigger blow to us than the foreign stars in our ranks.

I would say this is one of those differences English clubs will never see eye-to-eye with vis-a-vis European mainlanders where the heritage of the game has always been completely different.

For you, there isn't an issue of losing what you never had, the definition of foreigner, as stated is very different in its interpretation - where you definitively state the Isles as completely singular entities, here, they are only seperate in internal issues/disputes etc, where national identity is apparent - all speak English which is the common bond, and they aren't colonies, which makes it a very unique situation.

I'm not sure if that's a worthwhile answer for you, but I think that'd be standard response from a British or Irish mainlander.

cr7torossi
29 Mar 2008, 08:34 PM
Next chapter anytime soon:)

Dark Savante
31 Mar 2008, 05:40 AM
I might re-start after the season is done. I'm not sure the interest in it is strong enough though, tbh.

I'm going to change the title of both to Wise Auld Fox.

Seems an obvious oversight on my side there. Whoops.

Vermont Red
31 Mar 2008, 10:49 AM
*stares at screen, eagerly awaiting part iii*

MtP07
31 Mar 2008, 11:37 AM
Please keep 'em coming, DS. :)

JC7rox
01 Apr 2008, 11:35 AM
No interest? I voted this "on-going" project as my favorite/best posts of last year. I'm pissed I have to wait at all.:mad:

Class, this thing is.

sdotsom
01 Apr 2008, 01:38 PM
Well I'm lookin forward to the next one.

Dark Savante
02 Apr 2008, 07:15 AM
My thoughts on whether to conitnue aren't far from this:


http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee112/vanpersiethegoldenboy/grantstacticalprowess.gif

motwyw

johno
02 Apr 2008, 10:41 AM
WHAT?!?! Not enough interest? What?!?!?!? Two words DS... Baited Breath

JamesA
02 Apr 2008, 11:34 AM
My thoughts on whether to conitnue aren't far from this:


http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee112/vanpersiethegoldenboy/grantstacticalprowess.gif

motwyw

Jabba breaks it down!

Eagerly awaiting the next chapter..

Sweetness
03 Apr 2008, 02:24 PM
My thoughts on whether to conitnue aren't far from this:


http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee112/vanpersiethegoldenboy/grantstacticalprowess.gif

motwyw
haha, that is hilarious. if chelsea win either the league or champs league this year, will grant be the worst manager to have taken home either the premiership or cl title?

and yes, post more.

Twix
13 May 2008, 02:11 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/05/13/sfnman113.xml

Fergie's man-management and influence on United.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/matt_dickinson/article3919908.ece

How our current side is still, probably in Fergie's mind, in the shadows of the 93/94 side.

Two great articles about the WAF, and it echoes some of what DS said about Fergie in his first two chapters. Really good stuff.

Amdrag
14 May 2008, 08:50 PM
More please. These are a really great read.