Newcastle United -unrealistic expectations from the Toon Army??

[Dirt McGirt]

Please read the above article before posting as it frames the discussion brilliantly and it cuts to the core of some issues that I've taken to heart recently.

Following 1996, we are no longer perennial strugglers, we are failures. That brings a pressure that communicates itself from the stands and the newspapers, right on to the manager and the players. Defeats are far too painful now to be tolerated for any length of time, because they reinforce the idea not only that we will fail, but – more uncomfortably – that we are destined to fail.

I recently watched the Reading-Arsenal game. As is now common with the Gunners, the game quickly became one of attack v defence, in which the only question was how long it would take before the likes of Fabregas would find a way through. However, the Reading fans seemed quite resigned to the unfolding humiliation, and cheered every time a defender made a tackle or hoofed the ball into the stands.

Now I couldn’t help but feel that the reaction at St James’s Park would have been one of anger. I’m not saying that we should accept lower standards. None the less, the reaction of the Reading fans was helpful to their team, whereas I don’t think our players would have gained the same encouragement.



I find that the above quote to be very telling and something that we all as supporters whether season ticket holders from Gateshead or far flung Toon Army members who've yet to set foot inside of St.James need to look deep within ourselves. It seems when our club needs us to be patience we respond with anger or indifference.




So now Sam Allardyce is the latest man to shoulder the challenge. One encouraging sign is that he is prepared to adhere to the well-tested principles that the first priority for success is a strong defence, and that a team must be hard to beat before it can think of defeating the opposition. The lack of a strong defence was always likely to hold back the efforts of Keegan and Robson, and Allardyce shows a readiness to rectify this.

However, a problem that Allardyce is now experiencing, that was largely absent from Bolton, is the demand that supposedly mediocre opposition be swept aside right away. Allardyce is told that he is now at a big club, and ordinary performances will not do, even in the short-term. The trouble is, Allardyce must start with the situation that he inherited, not the situation where we all think the club ought to be. We cannot outspend the opposition any more, and that means that success must be built up gradually.



I'm curious as to why we as fans are so impatient with the club. Our record the last three years doesn't indicate to me we should be competing for Europe.

2005 - 14th
2006 - 7th
2007 - 13th

I want know why we expect success right out of the gate? I don't see more that 3 or 4 players good enough for a top 6 side.

Anyways post your thoughts.

[BayernWake]

I personally expected slight improvement over last year simply because we got rid of so many crap (or injury prone) players. 25% of me expected to break into the top 4, the other 75% expected a top ten finish at least.

Then after the first two or so games, I got really excited since we were at or near the top. I think the very beginning of the season spoiled us.

But I'm still expecting top 10.

[Crazy Man Michael]

The recent history is the team and fans is certainly not one or patience, how many managers have we had in the last few years? How many players have been on the squad longer than two or three years? Changing to get better is one thing, changing for the sake of change leads to....well, pretty much where we are right now.

We now have a new look from top to bottom, an owner who seems to really care and has the money to back it up, a manager with a proven track record of overachieving, the beginings of a strong squad...and Fat Freddy's not even in the stadium!

The question isn't really where we finnish this year, its are we getting better over the course of the season and into the ones to come. I would love to see top 10 this year, and I think we can do it, but as long as we are building the right way, I can wait.

[Dirt McGirt]

The pre season prediction thread (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=581066)

Interesting reading. I was stunned at the amount of Top 4 finishes predicted. (some tongue in cheek no doubt). It's just curious with our lack of success as a club we still think the title and Champions league football is right around the corner. Keegan and Robson still cast a larger shadow over the club and I guess we assume that those days are coming back any minute unfortunately the truth is this is an average side that needs a lot of improvements from back to front.

[Toon³]

The opening line is bollocks, the club was a failure in 1995 and 1996 for not winning the league

[colinh9]

Personally at the start of the season I thought any European Spot would be a job well done, and that 8th or 9th would be about right. 10th is acceptable, but anything below that and I think it's been a poor season. A cup run would be nice as well. But to expect much more out of this club would be crazy.

[ottoman]

I, for one, supported Allerdyce’s appointment and am more optimistic about this season than any since the departure of Sir Bobby. Having said that I must point out that there is good reason for Magpie fans to be frustrated rather than adopt the attitude of quite desperation that seems to be exhibited by Reading supporters and that is so admired by the author. OUR SIDE HAS SQUANDERED MORE FUNDS ON THE TRANSFER MARKET IN THE LAST THREE YEARS THAN READING HAS SPENT DURING ITS ENTIRE EXISTANCE. Ten million pounds for Luque, Seventeen million for Owen, eight and one-half million for Boumsong . . .

[Dirt McGirt]

I, for one, supported Allerdyce’s appointment and am more optimistic about this season than any since the departure of Sir Bobby. Having said that I must point out that there is good reason for Magpie fans to be frustrated rather than adopt the attitude of quite desperation that seems to be exhibited by Reading supporters and that is so admired by the author. OUR SIDE HAS SQUANDERED MORE FUNDS ON THE TRANSFER MARKET IN THE LAST THREE YEARS THAN READING HAS SPENT DURING ITS ENTIRE EXISTANCE. Ten million pounds for Luque, Seventeen million for Owen, eight and one-half million for Boumsong . . .The money spent by Souness and Fat Fred was shocking. No really shocking but to damn every new manager/chairman for the sins of the former is doing the club a disservice imo. I think Big Sam is in real trouble.

[Dirt McGirt]

This is the type of idiot article that does the Toon Army a disservice (http://www.newcastleutd-mad.co.uk/news/loadnews.asp?cid=TMNW&id=362849)

The Bolton argument is a ridiculous one and one I'm tired of hearing. I wouldn't be surprised if they scored more goals and leaked less then the Toon over the last four years. Is style more important then winning?

[tigerdave]

First of all, I'll just point out for Devil's Advocate sake that there were only two or three posters in that thread who actually said a top 4 finish was in the offing. Most people picked between 5-10, which I don't think any of us believe is unrealistic.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I tend to agree that stability is key. However, that doesn't necessarily have to come from management or coaching. That can stem from the players themselves. What we may be able to do to improve is to follow the Chelsea model from the late Ranieri era, which was to take proven veteran players (Desailly, Makelele, etc.) and meld them with promsing younger players (Joe Cole, Lampard, etc.) to make a solid team. Unfortunately, unless we get Champions League-level players who want the challenge of getting a perennial underachiever to the Champions League, we're not going to get those players without getting there the hard way. We're linked to a lot of younger players, which is exciting for me. Now we need some links to the right veteran players to get that stability.

[Dirt McGirt]

Mort has big plans for the club. (http://nufcblog.com/mort-has-big-plans-for-newcastle/)

Nice piece from the NUFC blog. Mort seems to be approaching this club like an under performing company that needs some stability and direction in the boardroom.

“In my role I have to be determined to take a medium-to-long-term view and not be the guy texting in to the Press on a Monday morning saying everything’s gone horribly wrong. I have to look at it more long term than that.”

“It struck me, even after drawing at Boro and winning at Bolton for the first time for ages, that there is lots of negativity around. Lots of people are clearly waiting to see where this club is going.”

It's always below the surface and some of our fans seem to thrive on it.

“I’m not looking to bring in a new chairman or anything. There are a couple of senior people I think we need to add to help the management of the club, which will make life a little easier.”

“It would enable me to move up to a slightly higher level in terms of strategy, but at the moment I’m getting down into the detail of lots of things, which is a healthy thing for me to do, to understand what needs to be done. Because over time I’d hope to be able to get a bit more management in there as well.”

Give this group some time and give the manager a minimum of three years and I wager we'll win silverware.

[Dirt McGirt]

Joey Disappointed at Newcastle’s Vicious Fans (http://nufcblog.com/joey-disappointed-at-newcastles-vicious-fans/)

Great piece and feel free to make the usual Joey Barton jokes but afterwards read the article.

“When you think about it, you can understand it. It’s easy for someone to buckle in that kind of atmosphere. If things don’t work out players move on and will just think it’s not for them. But if fans stay behind the team then you will get the players playing to their best.”

“I understand the fans’ frustration, but the foreign players hear the jeers and boos and it must be really difficult for them. They’ve come here and played 13 games and already the crowd are baying for blood.”

[Super White Boy]

Good article. I've only been a fan since 2001. I was a casual fan of many English teams. Then I did a semester at Northumbria University at Newcastle when I was 31(For those of you who are not familiar with Newcastle, my dorm was about a mile and a half from St.James park.). Since then I have been a die hard fan. I realize I'm not a life-long fan, but ever since BSA took over I felt that he would need at least two years before we could expect any real achievement (meaning top 5 finnish). give the man some time to bring in his players and completely implement his program. Patience is needed. We will get there.

[JaredSS07]

Joey Disappointed at Newcastle’s Vicious Fans (http://nufcblog.com/joey-disappointed-at-newcastles-vicious-fans/)

Great piece and feel free to make the usual Joey Barton jokes but afterwards read the article.

This is the kind of idiot that needs to be removed from leadership. Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/n/newcastle_united/7122616.stm)

Barton's comments prompted an angry response from Frank Gilmour, chairman of the Independent Newcastle United Supporters' Association.

"If (Barton) says we don't have the right to criticise, then he wants to learn," said Gilmour.

"He obviously knows nothing about the north east and its passion for football.

"That performance was from a clueless manager who did not know what he was doing, that was the fans' opinion.

"For (Barton) to come out and say that, he has lost it. He has been at the club five minutes and hasn't put in a good performance yet.

"For him to then turn around and criticise the fans is totally wrong. He should have kept his mouth shut.

"He will learn what happens after you criticise Newcastle fans. It takes a long, long time for us to forgive. I would be very, very surprised if he doesn't get a reaction at Blackburn today."

[Dirt McGirt]

This is the kind of idiot that needs to be removed from leadership. Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/n/newcastle_united/7122616.stm)

Did you hear the away supports today? That made me really happy. Singing Big Sam's Army and cheering on the players. If we could only fill St.James with the traveling Geordies.

Maybe Joey was the wrong player to say it but he's correct imo. He really went out on a limb on this one but for my money he's shown more leadership in those comments then Geremi has all season.

[Dirt McGirt]

TF weighs in on Joey's comments and the culture of failure and disappointment surrounding the club.

BARBARISM BEGINS AT HOME (http://www.true-faith.co.uk/html/tbawe.htm)


Bristol C h 3-0 (won)
Blackburn a 1-3 (lost)
Barnsley h 1-1
Port Vale a 1-0 (won)
Brighton h 0-1 (lost)
Cambridge a 2-0 (won)
Swindon h 3-1 (won)
Grimsby a 1-1
Sunderland h 1-0 (won)
Wolves a 2-6 (lost)
Tranmere h 2-3 (lost)
Ipswich a 2-3 (lost)
Millwall h 0-1(lost)
Derby a 1-4 (lost)
Portsmouth h 1-0 (won)
Leicester a 2-1 (won)

P 16 - W 7- D 2 - L 7

Anyone recognise that series of fixtures and results? No? Yes?

Well, they are the first 16 games after Ossie Ardiles was sacked and Kevin Keegan appointed until the end of the 91/92 season. KK's first 16 games....I don't know about you but as one who fretted, gnashed teeth and stotted my head off the concrete barriers in the Milburn Paddock in frustration at the time, I don't recall our new manager and players being slaughtered by supporters as they have beP.en this season at SJP.It's not just at St.James It needs to be said that back then the quantity of our support on that last day at SJP when we faced Portsmouth (25,989) staring potential relegation to the old Division 3 and possible oblivion (Hall has told us he wouldn't have put any money in) in the face is less than 50% of the current attendances but I can't be the only one who rates those who attended that show-down at SJP as at least twice the quality of what we've had at SJP this season. At least twice.


The burden of historic failure is placed on new managers, new players - so when a new man calls for time and patience, there is mass scowling and a bitter recanting of "50 odd ********ing years of being patient" as though our new full-back is responsible for Lord Westwood, McKeag, Shepherd et al when he wasn't even born when Malcolm Dix was doing the rebel rousing, God bless him. Its a nonsense.

Does Allardyce deserve time? Of course he does. Will he fail with the current mood at SJP enveloping him and suffocating the life out of his players. Damned right, he will. And who then in their right mind would touch Newcastle United Football Club? Don't write in. We'd be the eternal poisoned chalice and only the seriously deranged would touch us. Fact.

Joey Barton is spot on about our support at SJP this season. He isn't the first to clock it - we've been saying the same thing for weeks online and in print and bemoaning the boo-ers and those flouncing off like spoilt children when things have gone wrong. We're not the only ones - The Mag and nufc.com have both been shifting about uncomfortably at the bad heads some of us have turned into. Joey Barton and the new players haven't had the benefit of a big bad Gallowgate crowd behind them. Joey Barton is right to wonder if all the rhetoric about our support is simply empty words. Right now, it looks like it is.


Great read with a nice history lesson attached.