Another football related death in Italy!

[uppsala]

Today, a Lazio fan was shot to death by a policeman outside a gas station in Arezzo.
The Lazio fan was travelling with a couple of friends to today's game between Inter and Lazio, when they met some Juve supporters. A minor fight broke out and a police officer fired a warning shot that hit the Lazio supporter. He passed away moments after.

It is very troubling to see the violence and incompetence displayed by Italian police officers.

Rest in peace!!

PS. The game is postponed and all other Serie A matches will be delayed by 15 minutes today.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

It is very troubling to see the violence and incompetence displayed by Italian police officers.

I'm not surprised that a Lazio fan would take that stance when all of the current reports firmly points the finger of blame at the Lazio Ultras who chose to attack the Juventus supporters. Regardless of who is to blame it is yet another example of Italian football violence. If the Ultra movement is destroyed in Italy then you will only have yourself to blame for stupidity like today. I see the Atalanta/AC Milan match has been called off due to crowd trouble as well. Another glorious day for Italian football. :rolleyes:

[RichardL]

I'm not surprised that a Lazio fan would take that stance when all of the current reports firmly points the finger of blame at the Lazio Ultras who chose to attack the Juventus supporters. Regardless of who is to blame it is yet another example of Italian football violence. If the Ultra movement is destroyed in Italy then you will only have yourself to blame for stupidity like today. I see the Atalanta/AC Milan match has been called off due to crowd trouble as well. Another glorious day for Italian football. :rolleyes:it seems the Atalanta game was suspended due to the Atalanta fans causing trouble in protest at the game not being called off.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Is there any difference between using the term 'called off' and 'suspended'? Either way the match had started and was forced to stop due to crowd trouble.

[uppsala]

What are you talking about idiot? According to the latest news, the lazio supporter (who was also a famous DJ in Rome) was sitting in a car when he was shot by the police.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Nice personal attack. The root cause of this was fighting between Lazio and Juventus fans. Care to dispute that fact?

[uppsala]

Nice personal attack. The root cause of this was fighting between Lazio and Juventus fans. Care to dispute that fact?

And the dead person was sitting in a car during the fight. Have I glorified the ultras culture or have I expressed my sorrow for a victim of football violence and Italian police incompetence?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Why attack the police when you do not know the full story? The only thing we know for sure is that rivals fans were fighting and that forced a police response. The fans deserve as much, if not more, blame at this stage. They were the root cause of the problem.

[Stevo123]

and why cant supporters be civil?

[RichardL]

Is there any difference between using the term 'called off' and 'suspended'? Either way the match had started and was forced to stop due to crowd trouble.
the difference is your implication was that there were two unrelated incidents resulting in games being called off on the same day, whereas one was a result of the other.

Apparenty the ultras were calling (chanting) for the game to be called off, although a lot of the other fans were having a go at them to try to get them to stop.

[uppsala]

Why attack the police when you do not know the full story? The only thing we know for sure is that rivals fans were fighting and that forced a police response. The fans deserve as much, if not more, blame at this stage. They were the root cause of the problem.

The thing we know for sure is that a warning shot by a policeman accidentically killed a footbal fan. If that is not incompetence, I would like to hear how you define it. The death has even been condemned by Romano Prodi (Italy's prime minister) as a horrible mistake and a tragedy, and here you come and act as if you know anything about what happened.

Instead, you should try to show some respect to the friends and relatives of the dead supporter, Gabriele Sandri.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

the difference is your implication was that there were two unrelated incidents resulting in games being called off on the same day, whereas one was a result of the other.

Apparenty the ultras were calling (chanting) for the game to be called off, although a lot of the other fans were having a go at them to try to get them to stop.

I never claimed they were unrelated and that is irrelevant to the fact that trouble marred two games this afternoon. One game was not even started for obvious reasons leading to trouble outside the ground and the other was stopped due to trouble inside the ground. Two different incidents (three if you include the initial one that sparked everything off) involving supporter trouble. I don't see how stating that is somehow wrong. The authorities clearly felt that it would have no bearing on other games or there would have been no games on at all. If they don't consider it to be relevant then why should anyone else?

The thing we know for sure is that a warning shot by a policeman accidentically killed a footbal fan. If that is not incompetence, I would like to hear how you define it. The death has even been condemned by Romano Prodi (Italy's prime minister) as a horrible mistake and a tragedy, and here you come and act as if you know anything about what happened.

Instead, you should try to show some respect to the friends and relatives of the dead supporter, Gabriele Sandri.

We don't even know if that is the case yet. It makes sense and is what people are running with but until the investigation has taken place there is little point in idle speculation. Plus how can you on one hand state that is was accidental but on the other claim incompetence? They are not mutually exclusive. The Italian PM is, like everyone else at this stage, making statements without the full facts. Obviously the death should not have happened and was probably a mistake but there is little point blaming the police until we know exactly what happened. It has nothing to do with a lack of respect for the dead supporter or his family and everything to do with common sense.

I also don't see how you can continually fail to blame the supporters of both clubs for the fighting that caused this incident to occur. They deserve to be blamed at this point because regardless of what happened with the police they are fundamentally to blame. The fact that a large proportion of Italian's (or supporters of Italian teams) on BS are quick to blame the police but completely ignore the actions of the supporters is pretty pathetic.

[uppsala]

I never claimed they were unrelated and that is irrelevant to the fact that trouble marred two games this afternoon. One game was not even started for obvious reasons leading to trouble outside the ground and the other was stopped due to trouble inside the ground. Two different incidents (three if you include the initial one that sparked everything off) involving supporter trouble. I don't see how stating that is somehow wrong. The authorities clearly felt that it would have no bearing on other games or there would have been no games on at all. If they don't consider it to be relevant then why should anyone else?



We don't even know if that is the case yet. It makes sense and is what people are running with but until the investigation has taken place there is little point in idle speculation. Plus how can you on one hand state that is was accidental but on the other claim incompetence? They are not mutually exclusive. The Italian PM is, like everyone else at this stage, making statements without the full facts. Obviously the death should not have happened and was probably a mistake but there is little point blaming the police until we know exactly what happened. It has nothing to do with a lack of respect for the dead supporter or his family and everything to do with common sense.

I also don't see how you can continually fail to blame the supporters of both clubs for the fighting that caused this incident to occur. They deserve to be blamed at this point because regardless of what happened with the police they are fundamentally to blame. The fact that a large proportion of Italian's (or supporters of Italian teams) on BS are quick to blame the police but completely ignore the actions of the supporters is pretty pathetic.


Ok, sure Sherlock. All the findings so far indicate that the victim was sitting in a car, and was hit by a warning shot fired by a police officer. If you want to wait until it is proven with a 100% certainty, that is fine with me.

An accident and incompetence can very well go hand in hand. It was an accident in the sense that he did not mean to kill the victim, but an incompetent act in the way that he still managed to do that. I cannot comprehend how you can claim that these two are incompatible.

As for the fighting, it is something unacceptable and wrong, but its significance fades in this context. It happens everywhere and, sadly, it is a part of Ultras culture in Italy (and a part of other countries' respective "hooligan" cultures). However, that a fight broke loose and that a man sitting in a car was shot, cannot be connected so rigorously that we should blame it on the involved ultras rather than the police.

[Kebbie Gazauzkas]

R.I.P. Gabriele Sandri, my condolences go out to his family and friends, it's sad to see that "hooligan culture" doesn't seem to be coming to an end. Soccer should never bring out the worst in people. :(

[DonMancini]

As for the fighting, it is something unacceptable and wrong, but its significance fades in this context. It happens everywhere and, sadly, it is a part of Ultras culture in Italy (and a part of other countries' respective "hooligan" cultures). However, that a fight broke loose and that a man sitting in a car was shot, cannot be connected so rigorously that we should blame it on the involved ultras rather than the police.

And then again - the police officer wouldn't have fired that shot had they not been fighting.

Teso is right that we don't have all the facts for the moment, but I think both of you guys are right. For the police officer to have accidentally shot and killed someone is terrible and incompetent. However, something definitely should be done about the fighting because had it not taken place this incident wouldn't have happened as well as many other incidents, and I say this as a fan of Serie A.

R.I.P. Gabriele

[arvin sloane]

Rai is reporting that there was no fighting at all...

[JeremyEritrea]

http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Primo_Piano/2007/11_Novembre/11/mortotifoso.shtml

[JeremyEritrea]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=a4HJ8VLK9e68&refer=europe

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21738377/

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Ok, sure Sherlock. All the findings so far indicate that the victim was sitting in a car, and was hit by a warning shot fired by a police officer. If you want to wait until it is proven with a 100% certainty, that is fine with me.

I never denied that was the case. All I said was that we need to wait before ignorantly accusing the police of anything.

An accident and incompetence can very well go hand in hand. It was an accident in the sense that he did not mean to kill the victim, but an incompetent act in the way that he still managed to do that. I cannot comprehend how you can claim that these two are incompatible.

I never said they were not compatible. What I did say was that they were not mutually exclusive. If you still do not understand the meaning of those two words then please just ask. Again, it's also why we need to wait before accusing the police of anything. At least that is what sensible people do, something the rioting ultras are clearly not.

As for the fighting, it is something unacceptable and wrong, but its significance fades in this context. It happens everywhere and, sadly, it is a part of Ultras culture in Italy (and a part of other countries' respective "hooligan" cultures). However, that a fight broke loose and that a man sitting in a car was shot, cannot be connected so rigorously that we should blame it on the involved ultras rather than the police.

It's significance does not fade at all. In fact, it's significance is heightened by the rioting at two other grounds and currently in Rome itself.

Rai is reporting that there was no fighting at all...

The fighting occured and no-one connected has denied that fact.

[leg_breaker]

"The English Disease"