Platini Top Ten All-Time?

[Roger Allaway]

Based on what sources do you back up that Leônidas da Silva was better thank those three?

I don't think you are THAT old that you ever saw him play actually. :D


This is from the Encyclopedia of World Soccer by Richard Henshaw, published in the United States in 1979:

"Leonidas (full name: Leonidas da Silva). The small, rubbery Brazilian center forward who made the bicycle kick famous in the late 1930s. He was so agile that he could take bicycle kicks with both feet, sometimes controlling the ball with one foot and kicking it with the other. Leonidas stole the show at the 1938 World Cup, and led Brazil to win its first big international success: third place in the world championship. In addition, his speed and exceptional ability to read the field elevated him to the top rank of all-time center forwards. He was probably the most complete player in that position Brazil has ever had."

[schwuppe]

This is from the Encyclopedia of World Soccer by Richard Henshaw, published in the United States in 1979:

"Leonidas (full name: Leonidas da Silva). The small, rubbery Brazilian center forward who made the bicycle kick famous in the late 1930s. He was so agile that he could take bicycle kicks with both feet, sometimes controlling the ball with one foot and kicking it with the other. Leonidas stole the show at the 1938 World Cup, and led Brazil to win its first big international success: third place in the world championship. In addition, his speed and exceptional ability to read the field elevated him to the top rank of all-time center forwards. He was probably the most complete player in that position Brazil has ever had."
Thank you, but that are informations I already had and it ain't much. :D

So he was most likey the best forward in the 30s. Was he better than Zico or Ronaldo?
We sadly don't know and we will never know.

My problems with comparing pre WWII-players to recent once.
Football
1) isn't that well documented like e.g baseball.
2) and even if we would have all stats, they aren't really important.

You can't tell how good this Leônidas da Silva really was. He could be everywhere from alltime #1 - #75, but for me it's to vague to rate him above Zico or Ronaldo where we exactly know what we've got.

I just don't like speculations that much. :p

[kingkong1]

Thank you, but that are informations I already had and it ain't much.

So he was most likey the best forward in the 30s. Was he better than Zico or Ronaldo?

We sadly don't know and we will never know.

My problems with comparing pre WWII-players to recent once.

Football

1) isn't that well documented like e.g baseball.
2) and even if we would have all stats, they aren't really important.

You can't tell how good this Leônidas da Silva really was. He could be everywhere from alltime #1 - #75, but for me it's to vague to rate him above Zico or Ronaldo where we exactly know what we've got.

I just don't like speculations that much. :pSchwuppe,

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.

There is no how to deny that Leônidas impact in the 30's was not only way above Andrade's (Uruguay), Meazza (Italia) or Pedernera's (Argentina) – his contemporaries – but also Zico's or Ronaldo's in our era.

That impact CAN be measured by trustworthy/authorized commentators testimonies (i.e., experts who saw them playing) – people that already died and/or are still alive today - which give us quite an approximate idea of the level of such & such player among competitors of his and other eras.

And that's not just daddy's accounts.LOL

Allied of course to the impact of their deeds in the mass communications media of their respective epochs.

In spite of – and precisely because of - the fact that at their time there was no television or internet.

Not to recognize that is to share the opinion that before TV & Internet there was no…History.

And that only us have access to Truth.:p

Besides, Leônidas’ fame doesn’t 'just' rely on authorized books and trustworthy press accounts (& I’m not speaking here just of ‘stats’) but also in the way & extent his image was vehiculated in a time in which - in order to be slightly known - you HAD to be a giant.

For players of those eras to get worldwide famous (& they got) they had to show a lot more than our contemporary ‘geniuses’.

Nowadays Cristiano Ronaldo does a stunt here & instantly even in Japan or Malaysia he is tagged as ‘the best ever’.

All that without a more seasoned analysis that only the critical distancing & timing of the written press can give us.

Nowadays, after more than 60 years (just to give you a measure of their genius) we still constantly hear about Andrade, Leônidas, Meazza, Moreno, Zizinho.

Who guarantees you that in a pair of decades Zico or any of the Ronaldos will have the same impact in the history of the sport? :rolleyes: ...

[comme]

Nowadays, after more than 60 years (just to give you a measure of their genius) we still constantly hear about Andrade, Leônidas, Meazza, Moreno, Zizinho.

Who guarantees you that in a pair of decades Zico or any of the Ronaldos will have the same impact in the history of the sport? :rolleyes: ...

Well for starters Ronaldo was 3 times World Player of the Year, the all-time top goalscorer in World Cup football and a World Cup golden boot winner. His name will live forever in the way that those of Muller and Fontaine do, even among those who never saw them play.

[Roger Allaway]

You can't tell how good this Leônidas da Silva really was. He could be everywhere from alltime #1 - #75, but for me it's to vague to rate him above Zico or Ronaldo where we exactly know what we've got.

I just don't like speculations that much.

Beware of the idea that history began the day the TV cameras got switched on.

[comme]

Beware of the idea that history began the day the TV cameras got switched on.

No, but at the same time he has a valid point. It is extremely difficult to compare for instance Leonidas to Ronaldo for a number of reasons.

The only sports in which pre-TV stars are commonly regarded as the greatest ever tend to be ones in which statistics play a big part, like cricket and baseball. It's easy in those to compare say, Babe Ruth to Barry Bonds, or Don Bradman to Brian Lara, because you have averages to support you.

Football is not the same. Ultimately you rely a great deal on subjectivity and the opinions of those old enough to have seen some of the greats.

But for instance how does Leonidas compare to some of the early greats of the game. Why was he better than G.O. Smith, Nuts Cobbold or Jamie Weir?

All we can really say about Ronaldo is that he is probably the finest forward of the last 30 years, maybe of all time. Beyond that, it's all speculation.

[kingkong1]

Well for starters Ronaldo was 3 times World Player of the Year, the all-time top goalscorer in World Cup football and a World Cup golden boot winner. His name will live forever in the way that those of Muller and Fontaine do, even among those who never saw them play.Even as a former World Cup gratest scorer Müller was never chosen to integrate the All-Time 11 selections elected by the experts along the times.

Nor at Leônidas time (or even Müller's) there were elections for World Player of the Year.

Of course they are all great players & will stay for along time in people's memories.

But I find it quite hard that Ronaldo, Müller, Fontaine names will match one day Leônida's, Andrade's, Pelé's or Garrincha's in terms of longevity.:cool:

[comme]

Even as a former World Cup gratest scorer Müller was never chosen to integrate the All-Time 11 selections elected by the experts along the times.

Nor at Leônidas time (or even Müller's) there were elections for World Player of the Year.

Of course they are all great players & will stay for along time in people's memories.

But I find it quite hard that Ronaldo, Müller, Fontaine names will match one day Leônida's, Andrade's, Pelé's or Garrincha's in terms of longevity.:cool:

Well Leonidas, Andrade and Garrincha are all actually quite seldom known in Europe, except among the most knowledgable football fans. Fontaine and Muller however, are well known for their World Cup records. I'm sure they remain well known in South America

Who knows whether they will endure, but I'm far from convinced that Leonidas is better remembered than many other legends, or that longevity of reputation is a good indicator of accomplishment.

[Lusankya]

But I find it quite hard that Ronaldo, Müller, Fontaine names will match one day Leônida's, Andrade's, Pelé's or Garrincha's in terms of longevity.:cool:
Maybe because you're a Brazilian? :rolleyes:
I don't even really know about Leonida or Andrade, but that's because I am more interested in the teams and not in single players (besides German players or players in the Bundesliga).

[kingkong1]

Well Leonidas, Andrade and Garrincha are all actually quite seldom known in Europe, except among the most knowledgable football fans. Fontaine and Muller however, are well known for their World Cup records. I'm sure they remain well known in South America

Who knows whether they will endure, but I'm far from convinced that Leonidas is better remembered than many other legends, or that longevity of reputation is a good indicator of accomplishment.Football fans that are not 'knowlegeable' are no football fans.

Are rather 'auditorium monkeys'.***

***Reference to the Brazilian maids of the 50's who filled the Radio Nacional auditorium on Sundays afternoons in order to 'root' & fight each other to the point of grabbing each other's hairs to support the artist that they found more 'beautiful' or 'charming'.:D

[kingkong1]

Maybe because you're a Brazilian? :rolleyes:
I don't even really know about Leonidas or Andrade, but that's because I am more interested in the teams and not in single players (besides German players or players in the Bundesliga).Andrade was Uruguayan.

But I could include there (as I did somewhere else) Meazza, Pedernera, Moreno, Loustau (none of them Brz).:cool:

[Roger Allaway]

Well Leonidas, Andrade and Garrincha are all actually quite seldom known in Europe, except among the most knowledgable football fans.

Garrincha is seldom known in Europe? I can't believe that's true.

[kingkong1]

Garrincha is seldom known in Europe? I can't believe that's true.Ask his Sweddish sons :D ...

[comme]

Garrincha is seldom known in Europe? I can't believe that's true.

His profile has been raised by the biography of him a few years ago, but his profile is not on the same level as say, Eusebio, Di Stefano or Puskas among the greats of his generation.

Muller and Fontaine have their names in the record books for their World Cup scoring achivements. Garrincha is certainly a lot less well known than they are.

[Lusankya]

I think Garrincha is better known in Europe than Fontaine or at least as well known.
Of course casual football fans probably don't know him here, but they don't know Fontaine as well.

[Roger Allaway]

FIFA's website says that many people consider Garrincha second only to Pele among Brazilian players. That's not a bad rating to have.

[kingkong1]

His profile has been raised by the biography of him a few years ago, but his profile is not on the same level as say, Eusebio, Di Stefano or Puskas among the greats of his generation.Eusébio, Di Stéfano, Puskas were players who acted in Europe, so they naturally tend to be more hyped in the continent.

But you forget that Europe alone is not 'the world'.:rolleyes:Muller and Fontaine have their names in the record books for their World Cup scoring achivements. Garrincha is certainly a lot less well known than they are.I thought you were a better informed poster.:eek:

How about that for 'name in a record book'?...:

http://www.ifhof.com/hof/garrincha.asp

If there are Europeans who ignore that they shouldn’t deserve to be called football fans.

Or - as far as not having left his marks in Europe:

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/esporte/ult92u416159.shtml

The article talks about Garrincha's Sweddish son Ulf and grandsons, all of them professional (or prospective) football players in Europe & creative forwards as the father & grandpa:“Martin, 19, Henrik, 10, Linnea, 10...

All have their clubs & are relatively successful. Martin 19, forward of Astrio FC is the closest to follow the grandpa steps. He has skill & according to the coach just needs to play more for the team.

Henrik nowadays plays for Halmstad. Although the coach sees in him the Brz style’ & aknowleges he’s ‘different’, his pleasure of playing doesn’t match his twin sister’s, Linnea, who’s the great attraction of the Snösterp-Nyhem.

Linnea is also who most smiles among them. In or out the pitch she’s always having fun & kidding everybody like the grandpa.

Ulf has another son, Jonas, 22, who looks not too much interested in football. And nothing guarantees that the others will succeed as players.

But something unites Garrincha’s clan in Sweden: they are all forwards & enjoy individual plays.”That’s what I call intercontinental artificial insemination :p …

[TKORL]

who is leonidas? oh you mean..."THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!". :D

[comme]

But you forget that Europe alone is not 'the world'.:rolleyes:I thought you were a better informed poster.:eek:


No, but I'm merely explaining the perception in Europe. The idea that people like Loustau or Moreno are well known among average football fans is way off the mark.

[kingkong1]

who is leonidas? oh you mean..."THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!". :DYour ignorance is really "HOMERIC!!!" :p kkkkkk...