Platini Top Ten All-Time?

[jpick]

Agree. It's not like I am trying to say Ronaldinho is not a world class player. He's a phenomenal player, he just isn't as great and influential to his teams performances as Platini was.

Of course since I am 40 I had the fortune (and misfortune since I'd like to be 10-15 years younger ;)) to live the Platini era.
And the maradona era, and zico's one and van basten etc. etc.
All of them seen live at the stadium more than once when they were at the top.

that is worthy of envy, amico mio. :)

[gmonn]

You didn't happen to see lots of Platini games, did you? I know Ronaldinho can assist yet he is not a playmaker.


Probably not as many as you, and certainly not live. I believe I saw every World Cup game he played, and plenty of highlights, but European games outside of W. Germany were difficult to see in the US back then. I'm also 41. From his World Cup career, I found him to be Zico lite. Zico also didn't play with great forwards for club or country, or at least not up to his own level. Maybe somebody can enlighten me if they disagree.
Ronaldinho has had the "handicap" of playing for a club and country loaded with great talent, which he has also carried at times. He's taken a different path from a 10, while still possessing phenomenal passing ability.

[kingkong1]

It's not like I am trying to say Ronaldinho is not a world class player. He's a phenomenal player, he just isn't as great and influential to his teams performances as Platini wasWhen it convenes you of course.

You just got eyes to 'how influential Platini's been' for your local Euro Championships but 'forget' how influential Ronaldinho Gaúcho was, not only for Barcelona (a whole Santiago Bernabeo applauding a Barça player: when would you ever see that in your whole life span, be it 40, 60 or 100 years!?), but...

...also to Brazil at world level, specially in the crucial & historical Brazil 2 x 1 England in 2002, the key game of that 5th Cup, the one which maintained his country as the undisputed World Cup leader in the planet and at the top of the football ranking to our days! :cool:

If his anthological - & historical - move in Rivaldo's goal (similar to which he does ALL THE TIME at the European league) wasn't sheer & masterful 'playmaking', what else is?...

You'll say, 'well, at your world level, it was only then'. Only then? For (all of) us was more than enough! ;)...

What did Platini effectively do to 'his France performance' at 'world level'?...

(And, when I say 'world level', it's not just Euro Cup - because the world is not just Europe, remember? - I mean 'World Cup level')...

Let's be more clear: which World Cup ever Platini helped to win for France?...

You know, 'kid': simply...NONE.Of course since I am 40 I had the fortune (and misfortune since I'd like to be 10-15 years younger) to live the Platini era.
And the maradona era, and zico's one and van basten etc. etc.
All of them seen live at the stadium more than once when they were at the topI'm 60 and can say with all tranquility that there was one Frenchman who was at world level as much influential to France as Platini: his name, Raymond Kopa (semifinalist in 58). And there was another WHO WAS EVEN MORE: his name, Zinedine Zidane (semifinalist in 2006 and world champion in 98).

Those three French just didn't accomplish more though for one country than a Brazilian: his name, Ronaldinho Gaúcho, the modest South American guy responsible for making his country to win a World Cup for the 5th time...

(Unfortunately we Brzs gotta keep repeating those things for others (& even ourselves): from 40 years old on our tendency is to fall victim of frequent memory blackouts) :D ...

[sardus_pater]

Believe me, I have nothing but respect for brasilian football. Still Platini >> Ronaldinho.

There are actually many brasilians of the past (and 1 in the present) that I rate higher than Ronaldinho.

[kingkong1]

Believe me, I have nothing but respect for brasilian football. Still Platini >> Ronaldinho.

There are actually many brasilians of the past (and 1 in the present) that I rate higher than Ronaldinho.Now we are agreeing 'in gender, number and degree', as we say in Brazil.

I think that - in spite of his superior achievements in terms of titles - he didn't attain yet the level of Platini in terms of his life time 'work ensemble'...

I was just being critical in my last post of your line of reasoning.

Being more or less 'influential to one's team performances' doesn't necessarilly make one better or worse than nobody...

If Dinho had his mind less involved with his personal (and enchanting) pecuniary interests in 2006 (& the same is true to Ronaldo, R. Carlos, Kaká & others) and gotten in better shape to dispute a WC, maybe he could have already arrived to - and even surpassed - Platini's level...

Who knows in South Africa (if he is still fit)?...

[jpick]

why did you put my name on sardus pater's post? :confused:

[kingkong1]

why did you put my name on sardus pater's post? :confused:Pardon, you're right!...

Got confused and typed your name in the 'quote bar'!...

Definitely getting old, man :p ...

[kingkong1]

You must be a little tired of this discussion, specially Platini's fans...

I imagine though we arrived to a consensus at last that it might be easier to find room for a 'regular' Jack Charlton or an 'excellent' Baresi among the 4 best CDs (even if seating in the bench for 3rd or 4th places) than to find one and perpetual seat for the 'great' French among the 2 best MFs ever.

And I'm not being ironic: when I say great, I mean it.

Perpetual seats in an All-Time 11 however are not for 'regular', 'excellent' or even 'great' mortals - they righteously belong to the Gods ;) ...

When All-Time MF candidates like Di Stéfano, Pelé, Schiaffino, Maradona, Cruyjff, Zizinho, Moreno, Puskas, Didi, Bobby Charlton, Gérson, Tostão, Zito, Kopa, Rivelino, Zico say 'present!' (16 fuoriclassi just for that position!...) where in there would the charismatic French legend comfortably find room - at least among the 8 best? :o...

[babaorum]

You must be a little tired of this discussion, specially Platini's fans...

I imagine though we arrived to a consensus at last that it might be easier to find room for a 'regular' Jack Charlton or an 'excellent' Baresi among the 4 best CDs (even if seating in the bench for 3rd or 4th places) than to find one and perpetual seat for the 'great' French among the 2 best MFs ever.

And I'm not being ironic: when I say great, I mean it.

Perpetual seats in an All-Time 11 however are not for 'regular', 'excellent' or even 'great' mortals - they righteously belong to the Gods ;) ...

When All-Time MF candidates like Di Stéfano, Pelé, Schiaffino, Maradona, Cruyjff, Zizinho, Moreno, Puskas, Didi, Bobby Charlton, Gérson, Tostão, Zito, Kopa, Rivelino, Zico say 'present!' (16 fuoriclassi just for that position!...) where in there would the charismatic French legend comfortably find room - at least among the 8 best? :o...


Which consensus are you talking about ? You're probably the only guy in the world to think Jackie Charlton is among the four best central defenders ever whereas he's maybe not even among the four best English central defenders ever... You're also problably the only one to pick 15 playmakers (obviously Puskas didn't play at that position) including 12 South Americans ahead of Platini without proving it at any point and without refuting any of our arguments...

So yeah indeed I think we've finally arrived to a consensus... :rolleyes:

[kingkong1]

Which consensus are you talking about ? You're probably the only guy in the world to think Jackie Charlton is among the four best central defenders ever whereas he's maybe not even among the four best English central defenders ever... You're also problably the only one to pick 15 playmakers (obviously Puskas didn't play at that position) including 12 South Americans ahead of Platini without proving it at any point and without refuting any of our arguments...

So yeah indeed I think we've finally arrived to a consensus... :rolleyes:OK,

Puskas was a 'forward'.

However (although he scored massively) he wasn't a sheer striker either.

And that's what are geniuses for: disrupting those eternal & frozen aristotelic 'categories'.

His category would allow him to play midfield (in spite of being a 'forward') with the aplomb of any modern specialist of the sector.

He and Zizinho as matter of fact were the prototype of the 10, of which Pelé, also a 'forward' like Puskas, would become the utmost and genuine stereotype (in the positive sense of the word of course).

And, as I stated before, displaying those diverse functions is a priviledge of the 'gods'...

Those 'god' s main attributes are:

Omniscience (the capacity of instantaneously being aware of all the sectors of the field, i.e, the ability of reading the game);

Ubiquity (the capacity of participating of a play in the midfield - sometimes even in the defensive sector - & forecasting and commanding the evolution of that same play in the attack);

Execution powers (or the capacity of 'giving the final word' and often performing the 'butcher's' functions - i.e., scoring).

Platini excelled in those 2 first attributes, but was just 'regular to good' in the 3rd (which is already excellent, under the genius' standards).

Puskas was a forward, OK, but...in terms.

He played in an epoch when players were mostly 'defenders' or 'attackers' and teams would invariably play with 5 'forwards'.

A good example of that was precisely the 1954 Hungarian NT, where its 1st 5 players were 'defenders', and the other last 5 were blatantly labeled as 'forwards', with hardly a mention to a 'specialized' midfielder.

Take a look at the Mighty Magyars in 1954 and the positions attributed to them at that time:

Gyula Grosics (GK) • Jenő Buzánszky (defender) • Gyula Lóránt (midfielder/defender) • Mihály Lantos (defender) • József Bozsik (attacking half-back) • József Zakariás (defender) • László Budai (midfielder/ forward) • Sándor Kocsis (forward) • Nándor Hidegkuti (forward) • Ferenc Puskás (forward) • Zoltán Czibor (left-wing) • Coach: Gusztáv Sebes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Team

As you see ONLY two mentions to 'midfielders', and, still, one subordinated to the defense and the other to offense.

No mention at all to a pure 'midfielder': they simply didn't exist at that time (at least in the sense that we know them from 1958 to our days).

How come to resist the temptation of - in the formation of an All-Time 11 - placing Puskas in a position so many times frequented by him in those years?...

He was the prophet of the future Number 10s (offensive midfielders by excellence, but primarilly midfielders).

[lanman]

He was the prophet of the future Number 10s (offensive midfielders by excellence, but primarilly midfielders).

You're confusing Puskas with Hidgekuti here. Puskas was more like a Bergkamp than an attacking midfielder.

[kingkong1]

Those 'god' s main attributes are:

Omniscience (the capacity of instantaneously being aware of all the sectors of the field, i.e, the ability of reading the game);

Ubiquity (the capacity of participating of a play in the midfield - sometimes even in the defensive sector - & forecasting and commanding the evolution of that same play in the attack);

Execution powers (or the capacity of 'giving the final word' and often performing the 'butcher's' functions - i.e., scoringHow come to resist the temptation of - in the formation of an All-Time 11 - placing Puskas in a position so many times frequented by him in those years?...

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Puskas was the prophet of the future Number 10s (offensive midfielders by excellence, but primarilly midfielders)Here is a definitive example of what's said above (Puska's 'perfect goal' against Germany):

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCaEDoB2oxc

[lanman]

Here is a definitive example of what's said above (Puska's 'perfect goal' against Germany):

You sure that wasn't against England?

[kingkong1]

You sure that wasn't against England?Matters that much?...

The video shows Puskas dislocating himself with the ball from defense to midfield > and finally scoring (all in the same play).

There are other examples: minutes 4:20 to 4:40 of this video show Puskas again very comfortable in his midfield (& eventually even scoring)...

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7LzHoCspU&feature=related (http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7LzHoCspU&feature=related)

OBS: I'm NOT saying he was a MF though: nobody can deny though he was quite at ease at that section of the field...

[621380]

When it convenes you of course.

You just got eyes to 'how influential Platini's been' for your local Euro Championships but 'forget' how influential Ronaldinho Gaúcho was, not only for Barcelona (a whole Santiago Bernabeo applauding a Barça player: when would you ever see that in your whole life span, be it 40, 60 or 100 years!?), but...

...also to Brazil at world level, specially in the crucial & historical Brazil 2 x 1 England in 2002, the key game of that 5th Cup, the one which maintained his country as the undisputed World Cup leader in the planet and at the top of the football ranking to our days! :cool:

If his anthological - & historical - move in Rivaldo's goal (similar to which he does ALL THE TIME at the European league) wasn't sheer & masterful 'playmaking', what else is?...

You'll say, 'well, at your world level, it was only then'. Only then? For (all of) us was more than enough! ;)...

What did Platini effectively do to 'his France performance' at 'world level'?...

(And, when I say 'world level', it's not just Euro Cup - because the world is not just Europe, remember? - I mean 'World Cup level')...

Let's be more clear: which World Cup ever Platini helped to win for France?...

You know, 'kid': simply...NONE.I'm 60 and can say with all tranquility that there was one Frenchman who was at world level as much influential to France as Platini: his name, Raymond Kopa (semifinalist in 58). And there was another WHO WAS EVEN MORE: his name, Zinedine Zidane (semifinalist in 2006 and world champion in 98).

Those three French just didn't accomplish more though for one country than a Brazilian: his name, Ronaldinho Gaúcho, the modest South American guy responsible for making his country to win a World Cup for the 5th time...

(Unfortunately we Brzs gotta keep repeating those things for others (& even ourselves): from 40 years old on our tendency is to fall victim of frequent memory blackouts) :D ...

the europeans take the europeanchampionship serious...example.. a copa amerika has not the class of a eurochampionship, the history has prooved that.....platinis 1984 performance in eurochampionship was outstanding ...a europeanchampionship isnt a worldcup but not really much lesser competive...

platini has reached the wc semifinals..in both wc he was part in teams where have played 2 historical games..1982 against germany and 1986 against brasil..i dont think he deserve a 19th ranked spot but he obviously deserve to be much higher ranked than ronaldinho..

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/placwc100.html

here is the list of placar 2005(brasil)100 best players of worldcups..ronaldinho is ranked 79 and platini 19...in my opinion the rankings are in many parts utter shit..but anyway ronaldinhos worldcup performance isnt close to platinis in placars(brasils) meanings...you can point out some great plays of ronaldinho or his performance against england but overall his performancs wasnt historical..example.. german player bernd schneider in the final was much better than ronaldinho..so what??and in the game against england it was the whole team where has sealed the win against 11 english players after ronaldinho was send of..

and ronaldinhos performance 2006 was rather disapointing and doesent make his worldcup career better..

you are a oldtimer from brasil...whats your opinion why placar ranks puskas 7th(a joke in my opinion) and german player helmut rahn is total ignored in this rankings???helmut rahn shot down the mighty hungaryan team in the final 1954 with 2 goals, his goal against yugoslawia has sealed the win in quarterfinal..he was olso semifinalist 1958 ... 6 goals in 6 games,he has scored goals in 5 of this 6 games...10 goals in 10 wc games total , many keygoals for germany many of them excellent and some outstanding goals..puskas has played total 6 career wc games and was held scoreless 1962 in 3 games , twice defeated.1954 defeated against germany in the final ...his other games was against a very weak team korea and a german team where has played with a good portion reserves in the first round 1954...

rahn has played 2 games where germany has played each game with 5 reserve players and still has scored goal 1 in both games ..1954 first round against hungary and semifinal 1958 against france..he was held only scoreless 1958 against sweden in a game team germany has played since minute 59 with 10 players and 15 minutes later with 9 players, juskowiak was send off and fritz walter suffered a serious injury after a foul from swedish player parling.....juskowiak was rightful send off for a revanche foul , but his opponnent hamrin did the same few seconds prior against juskowiak too and wasnt send off..even hamrin (2 days later) has pointed out that his action was not diffrent what juskowiak did to him (recources .. worldcup 1958, published 1958 ,friedebert becker,bertelsmann) ..




obviously placar has no clue in many parts for objektive rankings ...puskas is a alltime great player , no question but at worldcup level the situation for him is not good enough ranking him seriously in the top rankings..this is ridiculos..

you pointed out ranking is ranking...but its pretty clear how overated and lousy this rankings are in many parts in my opinion....

[Catel]

Cruyff neither won a World Cup ever. How overrated he is then !

[kingkong1]

Cruyff neither won a World Cup ever. How overrated he is then !Yet he & his team were world (not just European) vice-champions twice (didn't win in 74 because of a bad day & for having faced an opponent comfortably installed at home, and didn't win in 1978 because lost several players before the Cup (including Cruyjff), besides playing at an all-pressure Monumental de Nuñez, Argentina's HOME 'frying pan' stadium.

Besides winning those 'mere' 2 world vice-championships though, he was the leader of - much more than a team - a NEW SCHOOL of football, an honor that only he, Pelé and Puskas (another one who won 'nothing') can boast of ;) ...

[squidward123]

Yet he & his team were world (not just European) vice-champions twice (didn't win in 74 because of a bad day & for having faced an opponent comfortably installed at home

germany were favourites before the tournament by a long way, and then had a lot of internal problems before playing better from the 2nd group stage onwards.

them winning was no surprise, home or not.


Besides winning those 'mere' 2 world vice-championships though, he was the leader of - much more than a team - a NEW SCHOOL of football, an honor that only he, Pelé and Puskas (another one who won 'nothing') can boast of ;) ...

germany played total football at euro72

[621380]

Yet he & his team were world (not just European) vice-champions twice (didn't win in 74 because of a bad day & for having faced an opponent comfortably installed at home, and didn't win in 1978 because lost several players before the Cup (including Cruyjff), besides playing at an all-pressure Monumental de Nuñez, Argentina's HOME 'frying pan' stadium.

Besides winning those 'mere' 2 world vice-championships though, he was the leader of - much more than a team - a NEW SCHOOL of football, an honor that only he, Pelé and Puskas (another one who won 'nothing') can boast of ;) ...

the dutchs was elimated in the qualification european championship 1972 in a year germany has dominated the eurochampionship.....1976 the dutchs has reached the eurochampionship semifinal , so did germany..germany beat host yugoslawia 4:2 after extratime..the dutchs was defeated 3:1 after extratime against cssr...the last thing the dutchs wanted to loose against the cssr..there was a big chance for a revanche against germany..but the dutchs failed in the semifinal...its funny that you point out the dutchs lost many players 1978...the truth is that the dutch nearly has played 1976 with all his players from worldcup 1974 and the germans not..no breitner,no müller,no overath,no grabowski and no netzer......

the dutchs got lucky that the game even was played up to extratime..the cssr had a deserved 1:0 lead up the point a cssr player got a red card....the goal against cssr was a a not often seen excellent owngoal..neskens olso was send off with a stupid brutal foul..in extratime cssr scored again and cruijff like allways got a yellow card for babbling, van hannegem olso got a redcard near end of the game ...its funny enough that even in 120 minutes the dutchs didnt score a goal..

the final game between cssr and germany was a excellent game germany loosing in a penaltyshootout..even jose havelange who has watched this game pointed out no team did deserve to loose this game ...germany technical was undefeated in qualification and finals 1976...the dutchs with a 4:1 defeat against poland in a qualification game and this 3:1 defeat in semifinal..

germany dont need to play at home to reach top places..germany has reached 11 finals in 23 big tournaments not playing at home..

example 1972 eurochampionship qualifers and finals..

away games

turkey-germany 0:3
alabania-germany 0:1
poland-germany 1:3
england-germany 1:3 quarterfinal
belgium-germany 1:2 semifinal

home games

germany-turkey 1:1
germany-albania 2:0
germany-poland 0:0
germany-england 0:0 quarterfinal

neutral place in belgium

germany-sovietunion 3:0 final..

it looks that the homefactor for germany was more in away games than in homegames 1971/72..

so what is your point kingkong???

1950 brasil lost at home in front of 200000 brasilians..uruquays performance wasnt a killer prior to the final ...so whats your excuse???..
playing at home for favorites can be a big pressure too and not only a advantage..and some teams at times are very comfortable playing away without big pressure...there is never a garantie ....

worldcup qualifers 1974 for the dutchs against belgium in 2 games two 0:0 draws and the dutchs got lucky that belgium was wrongfully recalled a regulare goal in holland..so where was the allways important homefactor??? so belgium was undefeated in 6 qualification games, and belgium has not conceeded one single goal in 6 qualification games only to be eliminanted against dutchs where had a better+ goal rate...so the wrongfully recalled goal has saved the dutchs ass..

----
However, the road to glory was far from straightforward. As Beckenbauer recalls: "I can remember us being quite nervous before the opening game against Chile. We didn't play well, but a goal from Paul Breitner secured the win for us. We could sense the immense pressure of everybody expecting us to win the World Cup at home. We had won the European Championship in 1972 and given the best performance by a German team at a major tournament."

In 1974, however, another team led by the great Johan Cruyff was catching the eye with its magical football - the Netherlands. Deploying "total football," coach Rinus Michels' revolutionary concept which dispensed with the traditional notion of defensive and attacking players, an impressive Holland cruised into the final.
"For the first time, we were playing against a team who had devised a very precise system and carried it through," said Cruyff after the hard-fought final defeat to West Germany. "So we weren't our usual selves. And neither was I," admitted Holland's legendary playmaker, who won three European Cups with Ajax Amsterdam, adding: "We lacked a Gerd Müller."

Helmut Schön later recalled the days leading up to the final: "The Dutch were obviously brimming with confidence and had taken over the mantle of favourites, which is an unenviable role in any case. This confidence in the Dutch camp came across in every television and newspaper report and gave us all the motivation we needed. We were no longer favourites. Holland already seemed to think they were world champions. What did we have to lose?"

Holland were far more than worthy runners-up in the end. In the knockout stages, the Dutch had beaten Argentina 4-0 and world champions Brazil 2-0. "It still surprises me how that team is held in such high regard. The 1974 World Cup made Dutch football famous, even though we lost in the final," says Cruyff.
----

bertie voigts maybe was one of the reasons cruijff didnt have one of his best games.?? right??..

few days ago i have read a kicker soccermagacine from 1977..(i own a big collection of magacines)brasil drew germany 1:1 in a friendlygame in brasil 1977.zico didnt play well and in a interview he did point out the reason..the reason was that he was very well marked from german player rainer bonhof...in games in brasil he normally isnt manmarked..so he is quoted in this article...

so manmarking playmakers was part of german tactics in both games and it has worked out...

[kingkong1]

so what is your point kingkong???

1950 brasil lost at home in front of 200000 brasilians..uruquays performance wasnt a killer prior to the final ...so whats your excuse???..
playing at home for favorites can be a big pressure too and not only a advantage..and some teams at times are very comfortable playing away without big pressure...there is never a garantie ....In World Cups finals IS a guarantee...

Brazil x Uruguay in 1950 was really the only exception among all WCs finals in which the hosts went to the final game...

In 7 WC finals hosted by powerhouses, only Brazil didn't win.

An EXCEPTION, I repeat.

And of course exceptions (of all types) happen: there resides the charm of football...

Our problem then was never 'big pressure', but rather 'lack' of it...

Stupidly, Brazil...relaxed (and who 'came' was Uruguay)! :p ...

Brazil x Sweden in 58 wasn't exactly an exception though (Brazil - for those who knew - was the favourite, not only because of its campaign but also because of his past accomplishments in WCs)...

Of course home factor favoured the Sweddish, but if that game had been in neutral country or South America, we might even have had two-digit figures in that semi vs France and in the final!...

But in general in a WC final vs the home team, if the host has a great tradition in football like Germany, the visitor will be disputing a 'world war' against a whole nation...

Exceptions (like in 50) are rare.

That's what happened to Holland (who had a superior team than Germany): they felt the pressure and didn't play as usual...

BTW the 1974 final was one of the most frustrating from the technical & tactical point of view...

Two great teams in a WC final producing that ludicrous exhibition...few days ago i have read a kicker soccermagacine from 1977..(i own a big collection of magacines)brasil drew germany 1:1 in a friendlygame in brasil 1977.zico didnt play well and in a interview he did point out the reason..the reason was that he was very well marked from german player rainer bonhof...in games in brasil he normally isnt manmarked..so he is quoted in this article...

so manmarking playmakers was part of german tactics in both games and it has worked out...
Your German 'manmarking' system didn't look like that much effective in 2002...

Tell us quick (in 2 or 3 lines, please): what happened?!!!...

Besides, what an honour to us you compare a WC final against Cruyjff's Holland in Germany with a FRIENDLY against Zico in Brazil...

Looks like friendlies after all have their value, isn't it, dear 621?...

It's evident that - when it convenes to you - you have the the highest regards towards those mere...'amistosos'! :rolleyes: