Platini Top Ten All-Time?

[lanman]

There is an interesting predisposition for overrating players (Maradona, Platini) who were in the 80's/90's Italian League, under the assumption that it was the 'hardest' in the world. Funny that that trend of thought though was never valid to Brazilian players who undoubtedly succeeded in the same league at that epoch (Falcão, Zico, Romário, Ronaldo...)

How not to talk of prejudice (or, better, of a little bit of...jealousy)?

What utter rubbish.

Platini was top scorer in three successive seasons (a feat unequaled in the last 50 years of Italian football) and won multiple titles and the European Cup. Maradona was the star player and driving force of a Napoli side which won two titles and the UEFA Cup (although Careca's role in their success is often understated). That is why these players are lauded for success in Italian football.

The Brazilians you list were undoubted world class players and are recognised as such, but they did not achieve anywhere near what Platini or Maradona did in Serie A (I'm especially interested in what Romario did in Italy). If they had then they would be equally acclaimed, but the simple fact is that they did not match what Platini or Maradona accomplished.

The only prejudice here is stemming from your posts.

[kingkong1]

What utter rubbish.

Platini was top scorer in three successive seasons (a feat unequaled in the last 50 years of Italian football) and won multiple titles and the European Cup. Maradona was the star player and driving force of a Napoli side which won two titles and the UEFA Cup (although Careca's role in their success is often understated). That is why these players are lauded for success in Italian football.

The Brazilians you list were undoubted world class players and are recognised as such, but they did not achieve anywhere near what Platini or Maradona did in Serie A (I'm especially interested in what Romario did in Italy). If they had then they would be equally acclaimed, but the simple fact is that they did not match what Platini or Maradona accomplished.

The only prejudice here is stemming from your posts.Watch your tongue, mate: I demand respect simply because I respect you!...

Who's 'uttering rubbish' here is you!...

All you said is vain, bombastic & pre-conceived personal opinion: you present no evidence of anything you say and yet demand evidence.

All my posts are packed with evidence.

Go scratch your balls!...

[lanman]

All you said is vain, bombastic & pre-conceived personal opinion: you present no evidence of anything you say and yet demand evidence.

Based on the fact that both Maradona and Platini won multiple titles and enjoyed success in European competition, do the achievements of Zico, Falcao, Ronaldo and Romario(?) in Italy match up with those of Platini or Maradona while thy played in Italy? It's not a difficult question and a simple yes or no will suffice.
I'll also give you a clue - the answer only has two letters in it.

[babaorum]

'What is our no more than charismatic Platini doing there in the All-Time midfield 11 team?' :(...

Who said Platini should be picked in all-time team ? Most of us would fairly pick Maradona and Di Stefano ahead of him. Some would also pick Zico. The original question was slightly different : the purpose was to answer if Platini deserves to be in a best ever top 10 list or not. Most of us answered yes to this question or said he would be very close to it. Despite your claims you've constantly failed to refute our point of view. You've never made solid arguments to convince us why players like Gerson and Didi should be considered as better players than Platini.

[babaorum]

All my posts are packed with evidence.



Really ? :rolleyes:

[Martininho]

This is slighty off topic, but I think it's fair posting in this thread since, people are talking about the rating of players over the history of the game and where we place them among the all-time greats.

I myself think it's very difficult, if possible at all to compare eras that are vastly apart in years. Here's an example I think about where the game is today vs the late 60's, and how one measures a players legacy. Compare Uwe Seeler w/Dennis Bergkamp.

I haven't looked any polls today, but I think most of them would place Seeler above Bergkamp, yes? Seeler is one of the greats in the game. Now looking at what Seeler did the year Bergkamp was born:

Seeler (games/goals)
1969/70 Hamburg SV...................30 / 17 (age 33)

As we all know he played well into his 30's; was on the 1970 WC team.

Bergkamp as well played into his 30's at Arsenal:

Bergkamp (games/goals)
2001-02 Arsenal ………………...33/ 9
2004-05 Arsenal………………... 29/8 (age 35)

But the question I have and where I feel we have to make adjustment for the eras sits is in this stat:

Premiership (Foreign Players In The Top 4 Teams)
76/104- 73%

Bergkamp and players of this era are faced with a far more deeper, wider and talented pool of players they face week in, week out. I think it's fair to say that with Arsenal in the start of the 21st century Bergkamp faced a much steeper challenge to simply keep his place with the Gunners than Seeler did in 1969/70 at Hamburg. And I think this could be applied to other players from these these two and other eras.

This is IMO has to change how we measure the great players of today-I think they are going to win less and have shorter peaks. The player today is subjected to a tougher competition simply to win a place in the top flight XI, and this I think speaks to the quality of recent elite players-especially those who continue to play well between in their late 20s-early 30's.

What it takes to perfom in the latter part of a career today I think is very different than previous eras-even taking into account advances in medicine. The larger pool of players and the wealth of the top clubs to get that talent trumps this IMO.

Just something to throw into the discussion...

And an excellent, excellent observation. Well said. Repped.

[kingkong1]

Based on the fact that both Maradona and Platini won multiple titles and enjoyed success in European competition, do the achievements of Zico, Falcao, Ronaldo and Romario(?) in Italy match up with those of Platini or Maradona while thy played in Italy? It's not a difficult question and a simple yes or no will suffice.
I'll also give you a clue - the answer only has two letters in it.Falcão won the scudetto PRECISELY the same way & was even proclaimed WITH ALL JUSTICE (bombastically, I recognize, as it fits the Italian temperament), the King of Rome;

Zico was the true leading scorer of the 83-84 Italian season, not only because scored only 1 goal less than Platini ALTHOUGH having played 6 games less, but mainly because he played for a team way, but WAY inferior to Maradona's Napoli; it's way easier to 'achieve' something when you are playing for a superpower like Juventus than if you're playing for a midget institution like Udinese.

That's a definitive argument that I had already displayed in anterior posts which you simply ignored - and you'll keep always ignoring: because there is NO answer to it.

Needless to say what Ronaldo did in that league and in any European league he played: you all know.

Romário didn't play the Italian League (just escaped me: unless you need a new 'smoke curtain', will you 'slaughter' me 'cuzz of that)?... :o

Nothing of that is recognized though by a few pre-conceived heads like yours...

Who knows just a little bit of football, knows.

[lanman]

Falcão won the scudetto PRECISELY the same way & was even proclaimed WITH ALL JUSTICE (bombastically, I recognize, as it fits the Italian temperament), the King of Rome;

One title vs multiple titles. There's only ever going to be one winner

Zico was the true leading scorer of the 83-84 Italian season, not only because scored only 1 goal less than Platini ALTHOUGH having played 6 games less,

No, the true leading scorer is the person with the most goals in total - always has been and always will be - you don't benefit your team by missing games. You can make all the excuses you want, but history will record that Platini scored the most goals.

but mainly because he played for a team way, but WAY inferior to Maradona's Napoli; it's way easier to 'achieve' something when you are playing for a superpower like Juventus than if you're playing for a midget institution like Udinese.

What have Napoli done before and after Maradona?

That's a definitive argument that I had already displayed in anterior posts which you simply ignored - and you'll keep always ignoring: because there is NO answer to it.

How is it definitive? Because you say so? I don't see any "definitive argument" in any of your posts, merely your opinion.

Needless to say what Ronaldo did in that league and in any European league he played: you all know.

Ronaldo has an outstanding record and I don't see anyone anwhere claiming otherwise. Unfortunately, he failed to win a title in Italy and in that sense will not be looked upon like Maradona or Platini, however good he is/was. Also worth noting that he played for Inter, who can hardly be described as anything other than a big club.

[Tribune]

One title vs multiple titles. There's only ever going to be one winner

You know better, lanman. If that was the case, Maradona shouldn't even have a sniff at top 10 ever, at least as what club career is concerned.
Falcao joined Roma when Juventus was utterly dominant in Serie A, having 6 members of the 1982 squad on their roster + Platini and Boniek after 1982.
Moreso, Falcao stayed only 5 years in Rome. Platini won 2 scudetto benefiting from the support of the stellar Juventus cast.
Maradona has 2, but in 7 years. Had he stayed only 5 years, his record would be only 1 scudetto, 1 cup and 1 UEFA cup.
Zico stayed only 2 years there with a minnow. When Napoli was in a similar state as Udine, Maradona won nothing.


What have Napoli done before and after Maradona?


Napoli has seriously improved their squad in order to win the title from 1987. They had no less than 6 new players since 1984, like Maradona, Giordano, Bagni, Carnevale, Ferrara, De Napoli. And they also benefited from a drop in form of the Juventus, Roma and Inter, whose teams got old, while Milan was in rebuild mode.
Giordano and Bagni left in 1988, but they were replaced gradually by players like Careca, Alemao and Zola. In 1990, they had the second best roster in Italy after Milan and that was no small feat.
Besides, I don't understand what you are trying to suggest. Napoli crashed because of poor management. No team is going to get relegated just because they lose their star player.

[kingkong1]

MORE EVIDENCE TO YOU:

As far as Didi is concerned, let's refresh a little Ianman, Babaorum & dor02 memory (and then ask them what Platini did to Brazil in a World Cup that could be at least compared to what Didi did to France and its glorious Kopa, Fontaine et Piantoni in 1958):

Re: Most elegant footballers posted 13 Nov 2007, 12:30 AM

BigSoccer Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Club: Flamengo
Location: Rio, Brazil

See (in a clip dedicated to Garrincha) the spectacular and absolutely elegant goal scored by Didi in the 1958 semifinal against France (for me one of the 10 most beautiful goals of the game in all times):

br.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_E6yqyL5c (http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_E6yqyL5c)

Go directly to minute 5:05 of the video for that superb goal...

To minute 4:44 for Vavá's bomb in the 1st goal...

Or minute 5:44 for Didi's masterful & artistic serve to anthological Pelé 3rd goal (which could be in that list, too)...

Lethal elegance!...

SHINE DIDI'S BOOTS, PETIT ROI!...

____________________________________________________________________
(Next chapters, Zizinho, Gérson, Zito, Tostão, Rivelino, Zico etc etc)...

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Who is the above clown? Sock or not?

[Sport Billy]

It's hard to compare. I'm not arguing for or against Platini as top ten, but I don't think you can make an argument on his dribbling ability.

There weren't any Europeans showing dribbling moves/skills in those days.

Platini's true "skill" is that he read the game better than anyone in the history of the game.

I read an article somewhere that said his father taught him that he cannot out run the ball. He therefore learned to read the game and know where the ball is going.

In fact, as I understand it, after his playing days, he was an announcer in France. The fans hated it because he would call "goal" before the ball was even delivered to the eventual goal scorer. :D

[Tribune]

There weren't any Europeans showing dribbling moves/skills in those days.




Pierre Littbarski.

[kingkong1]

It's hard to compare. I'm not arguing for or against Platini as top ten, but I don't think you can make an argument on his dribbling ability.

There weren't any Europeans showing dribbling moves/skills in those days.

Platini's true "skill" is that he read the game better than anyone in the history of the game.

I read an article somewhere that said his father taught him that he cannot out run the ball. He therefore learned to read the game and know where the ball is going.

In fact, as I understand it, after his playing days, he was an announcer in France. The fans hated it because he would call "goal" before the ball was even delivered to the eventual goal scorer. :DWhere did I ever mention 'dribbling ability' concerning an eminently strategist like Didi in any of my posts?...

Platini was great at 'reading of the game' for European standards, but...'in history'!...

That's more than a blasphemy...

And Di Stéfano, and Pelé, and Maradona, and Zico, and Cruyjff, and Gérson, and Tostão, and Charlton, and Puskas!?...

How come can one throw so lightly to the wind such bombastic phrases?...

OK, I'm also a Platini's fan, but, don't take me wrong; to the kings what belongs to kings :cool: ...

[Sport Billy]

Where did I ever mention 'dribbling ability' concerning an eminently strategist like Didi in any of my posts?...

Platini was great at 'reading of the game' for European standards, but...'in history'!...

That's more than a blasphemy...

And Di Stéfano, and Pelé, and Maradona, and Zico, and Cruyjff, and Gérson, and Tostão, and Charlton, and Puskas!?...

How come can one throw so lightly to the wind such bombastic phrases?...

OK, I'm also a Platini's fan, but, don't take me wrong; to the kings what belongs to kings :cool: ...


:confused:

Relax dude

I didn't even mention you. I was not responding to anything you posted. I never mentioned Didi. Your post was not immediatly above mine or anything. Why do you just assume I'm responding to you - I was answering the question as to whether Platini was top 10. I was actually posting in reference to those who compared him to Ronaldinho etc, saying he lacked foot skills - so what that's not his game.

All I'm saying is that while all the other players mentioned were excellent with the ball, Platini may be the best "off the ball" player I've ever seen.

[621380]

MORE EVIDENCE TO YOU:

As far as Didi is concerned, let's refresh a little Ianman, Babaorum & dor02 memory (and then ask them what Platini did to Brazil in a World Cup that could be at least compared to what Didi did to France and its glorious Kopa, Fontaine et Piantoni in 1958):

Re: Most elegant footballers posted 13 Nov 2007, 12:30 AM

BigSoccer Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Club: Flamengo
Location: Rio, Brazil

See (in a clip dedicated to Garrincha) the spectacular and absolutely elegant goal scored by Didi in the 1958 semifinal against France (for me one of the 10 most beautiful goals of the game in all times):

br.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_E6yqyL5c (http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_E6yqyL5c)

Go directly to minute 5:05 of the video for that superb goal...

To minute 4:44 for Vavá's bomb in the 1st goal...

Or minute 5:44 for Didi's masterful & artistic serve to anthological Pelé 3rd goal (which could be in that list, too)...

Lethal elegance!...

SHINE DIDI'S BOOTS, PETIT ROI!...

____________________________________________________________________
(Next chapters, Zizinho, Gérson, Zito, Tostão, Rivelino, Zico etc etc)...

the game between france and brasil was pretty close up to the action a brasilian defender broke the shinebone of frenchs capitain in minute 35 ..the action was dangerous play from the brasilian player..everbody can see 2-3 stud marks on this players shinebone after he was transportet offfield..the goalscores was 1:1....the longshot goal was a cracker no question but playing against a team where has played technical with 10 players makes it much easyer...iam pretty sure if a important brasilian player had suffered a broken shinebone anstood a french player the frenchs could have kicked the ass of brasil.the frenchs definitiv had the class ...no question for me ...i own a copy of this game...

[kingkong1]

the game between france and brasil was pretty close up to the action a brasilian defender broke the shinebone of frenchs capitain in minute 35 ..the action was dangerous play from the brasilian player..everbody can see 2-3 stud marks on this players shinebone after he was transportet offfield..the goalscores was 1:1....the longshot goal was a cracker no question but playing against a team where has played technical with 10 players makes it much easyer...iam pretty sure if a important brasilian player had suffered a broken shinebone anstood a french player the frenchs could have kicked the ass of brasil.the frenchs definitiv had the class ...no question for me ...i own a copy of this game...A team that gets behind 5 x 2 only because lost a player by injury, let's be frank, doesn't deserve that much praise. Brazil lost Pelé at its peak during the 1962 WC and still won the title. France did have class, but not 'the class'. This one was obviously on the other side. When Pelé was 'slaughtered' in 1966, I bet you don't credit Brazil's defeat to his injury, but to the geniality of Eusébio, Albert, etc, am I wrong?...
Besides, in 58, Brazil scored its 1st goal right at the 2nd minute (stunning the French with that Vavá's bomb), and at the end of the half lead 2 x 1 (due of course to the wickedness of that Brazilian defender :rolleyes:); time enough though for a 'top class' team to recompose itself. But at the end of the 2nd half it was already 5 x 1 (!!!), when France finally scored its 'almost-consolation' 2nd goal...
And, as if it were little, with a Didi-fed astounding hattrick by a 17 year-old kid in those festive final 45 minutes! :cool:...
Yep! Notwithstanding, 'the French definitely had the class' (congrats, les Bleus)!...
A little later on, out of pure rage, Kopa (with the help of Di Stéfano & Puskas) would sabotage Didi in Real Madrid (and somebody here even had the guts to say that the latter was 'outshined' by the former in Spain)!...

[621380]

A team that gets behind 5 x 2 only because lost a player by injury doesn't deserve so much praise. Brazil lost Pelé at its peak during the 1962 WC and still won the title. France did have class, but not 'the class'. This one was obviously on the other side. When Pelé was 'slaughtered' in 1966, I bet you don't credit Brazil's defeat to his injury, but to the geniality of Eusébio, Albert, etc, am I wrong?...

i own a copy of the portugal-brasil game from 1966....portugal and eusebio has owned brasil up to peles injury and had a comfortable 2:0 lead...pele was very invisble and i dont understood why the one defender has fouled him so brutal...but on the other hand it was brasilian players where has startet to play with some dirty fouls.. eusebio was target with fouls and coluna early was kicked too in one action .remember where a brasilian player has kicked eusebio but didnt hit him effective enough and euebio only has shacked his head in disbelief, he has responded 1 minute later with a goal and this is happend prior to the action against pele.... portugals players responded with fouls against pele, the star player of brasil..there was olso the action against portugals keeper where was lucky not to be injured..in the last few minutes of the game even a injured and frustrated pele deliberate has fouled a player from portugal..

i own a copy of hungary-brasil 1966 too....pele didnt play and brasil was lucky not loosing 4:1 or 5:1 against hungary ..hungary was recalled ridiculos a perfect and classy goal from farkas where coudnt believed it and was very angry..in a other action a brasilian player has kicked alberts leg very in the penaltyzone without penaltycall, ridiculos, he was lying with pain on the ground for a while and garincha unfairly continued to play , he was recalled....albert was the most fouled player in this game..in this game 2 hungaryn players have played late in this game injured,both with arm injurys, one of them has suffrered the same injury beckenbauer had 1970 and hungary still has played better...

its time to tell the truth and not myts my friend....and i remember you that pele 12 months before in a friendly game with a brutal foul has broken the shinebone of german player giesemann in a friendly game in brasil and has hindered a possible chance for giesemann playing worldcup 1966....

[lanman]

A team that gets behind 5 x 2 only because lost a player by injury doesn't deserve so much praise. Brazil lost Pelé at its peak during the 1962 WC and still won the title. France did have class, but not 'the class'. This one was obviously on the other side. When Pelé was 'slaughtered' in 1966, I bet you don't credit Brazil's defeat to his injury, but to the geniality of Eusébio, Albert, etc, am I wrong?...
Besides, in 58, Brazil scored its 1st goal right at the 2nd minute (stunning the French with that Vavá's bomb), and at the end of the half lead 2 x 1 (due of course to the wickedness of that Brazilian defender :rolleyes:); time enough though for a 'top class' team to recompose itself. But at the end of the 2nd half it was already 5 x 1 (!!!) to Brazil, when France finally scored its 'almost-consolation' 2nd goal...
And, as if it were little, with an astounding hattrick by a 17 year-old kid in those festive final 45 minutes! :cool:...
Yep! Notwithstanding, 'the French definitely had the class' (congrats, les Bleus)!...

In an era of no substitutes, losing a centre half was far more damaging than losing an attacking player as it required a complete re-organisation of the team and the tactical system. If France had lost Kopa to injury then it would be comparable.

[Bauser]

Kingkong1 will not be satisfied unless there are at least 80% Brazilians on every ranking.

And those who disagree with him are just jealous of Brazil or Eurocentric. :)