Platini Top Ten All-Time?

[lanman]

however if we put in perspective that müller wrongfully was recalled a legal goal in a worldcup final 1974 so we must take kocsis offiziel minimal advantage with a grain of salt..kocsis never has scored a goal in a wc final ..müller has scored 2 goals against netherland 1974, 1 goal count in his stats..

You can re-count for any striker though. I would bet everything I own that at some point, all strikers have had a goal wrongly disallowed or wrongly given.

[schwuppe]

kocsis goal per game rate is 1.10294 (75 goals in 68 games)
müller goal per game ratio is 1.09677 (68 goals in 62 games)

the difrence is minimal..

however if we put in perspective that müller wrongfully was recalled a legal goal in a worldcup final 1974 so we must take kocsis offiziel minimal advantage with a grain of salt..kocsis never has scored a goal in a wc final ..müller has scored 2 goals against netherland 1974, 1 goal count in his stats..

the portugeuse leaque no question was weaker than the german leaque....
You are kind of mixing up Eusebio and Kocsis. :p

I have no doubt that Müller should be ranked higher than Kocsis, but it's still a fact that Kocsis has the best NT goal ratio.

[621380]

You can re-count for any striker though. I would bet everything I own that at some point, all strikers have had a goal wrongly disallowed or wrongly given.

sure , but how many strikers challenge the gpg rate of kocsis and müller??the 1 recalled goal is the diffrence between kocsis and müller..this is my point..müller inoffiziell was 1 goal better than 68 goals...this action shows müllers strenght and not his weakness...and how many strikers in a worldcup final had a goal wrongfully disallowed..???if you have videofootage of wrongfully recalled kocsis goals feel free and offer me that......

[lanman]

sure , but how many strikers challenge the gpg rate of kocsis and müller??the 1 recalled goal is the diffrence between kocsis and müller..this is my point..müller inoffiziell was 1 goal better than 68 goals

Can you honestly say that not one of Muller's 68 goals could have legitimately been disallowed? Sometimes strikers get the breaks, sometimes they don't. Over the course of an international career they would tend to even themselves out.

...this action shows müllers strenght and not his weakness...

Who is questioning Muller's strengths and weaknesses? He is widely regarded as the best pure striker to have played the game. Had this one disallowed goal counted would his standing in the game be any different?


and how many strikers in a worldcup final had a goal wrongfully disallowed..???


And the relevence of this is?


if you have videofootage of wrongfully recalled kocsis goals feel free and offer me that......

Funnily enough, I haven't. Footage of disallowed goals the 1950s is not exactly easy to find.


I just cannot understand your constant need to justify Muller's record and reputation - it speaks for itself. Arguing that his record should be slightly better than it is because of a disallowed goal is just pointless.

[JamesBH11]

I don't disagree massively with your ordering but most of these arguments don't really hold up.

1. By the 50s football was well organised. UEFA was founded in 1954, the European Cup in 1955. There were many internationals to judge these players, and competitions like the Mitropa Cup as well at that stage.

2. Support certainly hasn't declined. There were over 100,000 at the 1960 European Cup final. If anything attendances have fallen since those days due to all-seater grounds, plus there were a lot less forms of entertainment).

3. Technology only supports those players. To have the technique of Puskas with the standard of balls, boots and pitches of the era is a phenomenal achievement.

4. The game was already massively popular and well played throughout Europe and S America. The changes in this respect against today are minimal.

Many highly respected pundits see the 50s as the golden age of the game.

Any organization takes sometime to adjust and improve. Any event took a few generation to evolve into acceptable play ground.

So, for me WC58 was the BEGINNING of football worldwide in maturity onward
Maybe that's just me! I did not mean to imply that idea to the forum

Yes, like many American regarded Elvis Presley as KING of rock and Roll -50s (but for me The Beatles would truely be the ONE_ in 60's)

======================================================

Schwubbe,

Yes I think no one would argue Muller was in the same league of Eusebio in term of dribble and powerful run. However, those attributes would only serve the player toward the ultimate goal - score a goal bottom line.

Muller was a special player as his body figure never represented a "typical footballer" , by far a "normal striker"- YET, I would say he was a "very gifted" one in the sense of finishing (among the bests, seldom wasting chances), goal sense (right place right time), game reading (involve and getting passes around), dangrous in front of gk (score with head, 2 feet, and other parts), speeding is good enough (relative in his days), Ball control & vision good enough (to make many assists), a great team player (proven at Bayern and then Germany NT, athleticism (like Pele he seldom got long injuries), Longevity & consistency, last and not least Raise on Big Occasions (proven UCL, EuroCup and 2 WCs).

There are two type of strikers:
- versatile and skillful type: like Pele (leader in this group), Tostao, Ronaldo, Eusebio, Romario , Basten ... )
- Efficient type: Muller (leader in this group), Jimmi Greaves, Paolo Rossi, Lineker, Shearer, Klinsmann ... and lately Trezeguet, Crespo, Vieiri, Nistelrooy ...

In other words, he might not be your "typical striker" but he got ALL it needs to make himself a great striker! It's hard to explain how but YES HE MADE IT!

[JamesBH11]

You are kind of mixing up Eusebio and Kocsis. :p

I have no doubt that Müller should be ranked higher than Kocsis, but it's still a fact that Kocsis has the best NT goal ratio.

Believe it or not, Juste Fontaine had the best NT goal record (if we strictly go for the GPG as ratio):

1- Juste Fontaine: 30goals/21games= 1.43GPG
2- Poul "Tist" Nielsen : 52goals/38games = 1.37GPG
3- Gunnar Nordahl: 43goals/33games = 1.30GPG
4- Josef Bican: 43goals/34games = 1.26GPG (Czech, Austria and Bohemia)
5- Sven Rydel: 49goals/43games = 1.14GPG
6- Leonidas da Silva: 21goals/19games=1.105GPG
7- Sandor Kocsis: 75goals/68games = 1.103GPG
8- Gerd Muller: 68goals/62games ~ 1.097GPG
9- Ferenc Puskas: 84goals/89games = 0.94GPG
10-Pauli Jorgensen: 44goals/47games=0.936GPG

[squidward123]

Just read playing style describtions and watch some footage.
YouTube - Gerd Muller (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CNtOQW12cA)

YouTube - Gerd Müller Understanding w/ Teammates

[comme]

Believe it or not, Juste Fontaine had the best NT goal record (if we strictly go for the GPG as ratio):

1- Juste Fontaine: 30goals/21games= 1.43GPG
2- Poul "Tist" Nielsen : 52goals/38games = 1.37GPG
3- Gunnar Nordahl: 43goals/33games = 1.30GPG
4- Josef Bican: 43goals/34games = 1.26GPG (Czech, Austria and Bohemia)
5- Sven Rydel: 49goals/43games = 1.14GPG
6- Leonidas da Silva: 21goals/19games=1.105GPG
7- Sandor Kocsis: 75goals/68games = 1.103GPG
8- Gerd Muller: 68goals/62games ~ 1.097GPG
9- Ferenc Puskas: 84goals/89games = 0.94GPG
10-Pauli Jorgensen: 44goals/47games=0.936GPG

Are you applying some minimum number of games or something here?

George Camsell scored 18 goals in 9 games, Dixie Dean scored 18 goals in 16 games, Viv Woodward scored 29 goals in 23 games, Steve Bloomer scored 28 goals in 23 games, Stan Mortensen scored 23 goals in 25 games, Tommy Lawton scored 23 goals in 22 games.

All of these were for England.

[schwuppe]

Believe it or not, Juste Fontaine had the best NT goal record (if we strictly go for the GPG as ratio):

1- Juste Fontaine: 30goals/21games= 1.43GPG
2- Poul "Tist" Nielsen : 52goals/38games = 1.37GPG
3- Gunnar Nordahl: 43goals/33games = 1.30GPG
4- Josef Bican: 43goals/34games = 1.26GPG (Czech, Austria and Bohemia)
5- Sven Rydel: 49goals/43games = 1.14GPG
6- Leonidas da Silva: 21goals/19games=1.105GPG
7- Sandor Kocsis: 75goals/68games = 1.103GPG
8- Gerd Muller: 68goals/62games ~ 1.097GPG
9- Ferenc Puskas: 84goals/89games = 0.94GPG
10-Pauli Jorgensen: 44goals/47games=0.936GPG

And remember: Kocsis scored 11 goals in 54 WC and 75g in 68a for the NT.
I'm pretty sure that's the best ratio EVER for someone with more than ~50 apps.
Post #255

Forgot to add >50 games to that 2nd post. My bad. Edited it.

[schwuppe]

YouTube - Gerd Müller Understanding w/ Teammates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nngSmWVdMAQ)
Ok, but you still agree with me that Eusebio was more flashy? :D

[squidward123]

Ok, but you still agree with me that Eusebio was more flashy? :D

yeah. but mueller's play outside of finishing is way underrated. Just like people still think germany was not the big favourite (at the beginning) for WC 74. :D

[lanman]

yeah. but mueller's play outside of finishing is way underrated.

Massively underrated. It's just he was that good at goalscoring it tends to be forgotten about. He was more than capable of playing a much deeper role if required.

[621380]

Can you honestly say that not one of Muller's 68 goals could have legitimately been disallowed? Sometimes strikers get the breaks, sometimes they don't. Over the course of an international career they would tend to even themselves out.



Who is questioning Muller's strengths and weaknesses? He is widely regarded as the best pure striker to have played the game. Had this one disallowed goal counted would his standing in the game be any different?



And the relevence of this is?




Funnily enough, I haven't. Footage of disallowed goals the 1950s is not exactly easy to find.


I just cannot understand your constant need to justify Muller's record and reputation - it speaks for itself. Arguing that his record should be slightly better than it is because of a disallowed goal is just pointless.

it wasnt only 1 disallowed goal where put müller slightly behind kocsis...this recalled goal has cost müller the alltime leadingsorer title in worldcup too..maybe for you its a bagatell , for me not....i remember you that ronaldo9 wasnt disalowed a legal goal in worldcup games..and finally fifa has credid ronaldo9 in his records a goal he did not have scored 2002 against costa rica..so obviuosly nothing is evened out for müller and ronaldo9 is the king now.....the recalled goal has put müllers goalscoring rate out of the first 3 goalscorerrankings wc 1974......a goal disallowed in a wc final cost a player a good portion fame too., no question about that...example the other end....sir geoff hurst 1966 has scored 2 legal goals like müller did wc 1974 but müller is credited in his records only 1 goal and hurst in his records 3 goals(most goals ever scored in a final)..a big diffrense i think..a bagatell??...another point is that in many decades in publikation ,in discussions and international football documentarys a undeserved/ questionable penalty (dive of hölzenbein) is used very often to weaken germanys final sucess against netherland, ..müllers wrongfully recalled goal was blatant ignored..i remember well one of the last british documentarys about germany and the ignorance about the situation........so please tell me why??? mention müllers 1 recalled goal(so much you dislike) is important to shut up the ignorants too..

müller many times was recalled questionable and wrongfully goals..much more than him was gifted..(example..from austrian tv there exist a video of the game bayern-munich st.eitienne, the austrian tv reporter out of nothing has mentioned that müller very often undeserved was called back in actions he wasnt offside., ) ..in 4 europeanchampionscup finals + his wc final combinated him was recalled wrongfully 3 goals..so how in the hell something is evened out for müller???...3 goals disalowed is a huge number out of 5 important games ..........

very quick and straight out of my brain i have information from 8 questionable recalled goals in international games (nt/europeancup)müller has played and only 2 goals him was credid questionable in international games....so its not evened out..

[JamesBH11]

Muller's disallowed goal was unfair, but it was also a very close call! Muller was also wel known as an "opportunist" (Inzaghi copy cat to his in a lower scale) so he was subject to linesmen alert! Any how, no one would rate Geoff Hurst's highly despite of his 3goals scored in the final 66!

Players were rated by performance overall 6,7 games and final would be of course the most important one.

[squidward123]

Muller's disallowed goal was unfair, but it was also a very close call!

haha, not even close. He was about 3 yards onside

[Gregoriak]

Muller's disallowed goal was unfair, but it was also a very close call!

haha, not even close. He was about 3 yards onside


Müller's Off-Side Goal 1974

[621380]

Muller's disallowed goal was unfair, but it was also a very close call! Muller was also wel known as an "opportunist" (Inzaghi copy cat to his in a lower scale) so he was subject to linesmen alert! Any how, no one would rate Geoff Hurst's highly despite of his 3goals scored in the final 66!

Players were rated by performance overall 6,7 games and final would be of course the most important one.

dribblers easly can be judged opportunists too..so whats your point???müller was a much better finisher than his teammates.. to be in PART a opportunist isnt the worst for a team......
müller had the best assist rate in bayern munichs team in bundesleaque over the years...so your onesided view isnt helpful..
inzaghi is called the king of offside...müller never was and never was called a offside king or somthing like this....müller was way more foccused to be not in offside position and the videofootage i own proov that...

germany won in a europeanchampionship qualifer game 3:1 against yugoslavia 1967..i own the kickermagazin with a lot information from this game..the kicker quote him in a interview he did..(a part of the interview)he said..i dont understand why the referee has called back my second goal of the game.....normally i knows my position on the field....

this confirm that müller is foccused not be in offside position if possible and dont risk to much(allready in his early years)..



i have in my collection about 60 games on dvd müller has played in international games for the german NT and bayern munich in europeancup games (müller has played 141 offiziell international games)..this is excellent number judging his game..i olso have bundesleaquegame highlights on dvd of bayern munich seasons between 1972/73-1976/77 with information of more than hundred games...olso tons of kicker magacines and publikation with gameinformation and stats....

here information of bayern -munichs season 1974/75...it was bayern munichs worst ever bundesleaque season in days beckenbauer and müller in the team...breitner wasnt longer in the team and munich wasnt longer hungry after winning nearly everthing 12 months before(only focused in europeanchampionscup)..bayern has finished the season 10th ranked in the leaque with 34/34 points and negative 57/63 goals..

müller has scored 23 goals , has assistet 11 goals and sucessful has created 2 penaltys in 33 games..this means he has directly contributed for 66% of his teams goals in 33 games he has played..and funny enough he has played sometimes behind the other forwads in away games ..example..away against cologne(beckenbauer didnt play) munich did loose 1:0, cologne won with a giftpenalty..müller has played a impressive doublelibero position in this game with schwarzenbeck....recources the dvd gameghlight and commentary i own and the kickermagacine gamereport i own....

here the stats of some players same season

beckenbauer 33 games,1 goal,5 assists
schwarzenbeck 34 games,3 goals, 1 assist
hoeness 28 games , 8 goals ,5 assists
kapellmann 33 games, 4 goals,6 assists,1 created penalty..
rummenigge 21 games ,5 goals, 1 assist
wunder 27 games ,4 goals,3 assists
roth 24 games ,4 goals, 2 assists
dürnberger 31 games,0 goals,2 assists..

müller 33 games ,23 goals, 11 assists, 2 created penalty..

this are stats of a opportunist..right james???(by far the best goalscoringrate and by far the best assist rate of the team in this season and sometimes not playing a 9......

example..the best assister for gladbach(bundesleaquechampion 1974/75) was bonhof with 12 assists..gladbach has scored about 30 more goals than bayern this season..

wondering what other striker/goalscorers did ignoring this players goals ...

müller has assistet with backheel passes 4 bundesleaque goals between season 1972/73-1975/76 , videofootage i own of 3 assist.....2 backheel pass assists he did 1970/1972 for the german NT..videofootage i own...(timespan of 6 years..)

tell me one player who is or was more sucessful in this category assists of goal with backheelpassing/vision ..

-------

very close call...lol...wondering whats a bad offside call for you..rysbergen looked straight in the back of müller and holding his hand straight up suggesting a offside..

[JamesBH11]

dribblers easly can be judged opportunists too..so whats your point???müller was a much better finisher than his teammates.. to be in PART a opportunist isnt the worst for a team......
müller had the best assist rate in bayern munichs team in bundesleaque over the years...so your onesided view isnt helpful..
inzaghi is called the king of offside...müller never was and never was called a offside king or somthing like this....müller was way more foccused to be not in offside position and the videofootage i own proov that...

germany won in a europeanchampionship qualifer game 3:1 against yugoslavia 1967..i own the kickermagazin with a lot information from this game..the kicker quote him in a interview he did..(a part of the interview)he said..i dont understand why the referee has called back my second goal of the game.....normally i knows my position on the field....

this confirm that müller is foccused not be in offside position if possible and dont risk to much(allready in his early years)..



i have in my collection about 60 games on dvd müller has played in international games for the german NT and bayern munich in europeancup games (müller has played 141 offiziell international games)..this is excellent number judging his game..i olso have bundesleaquegame highlights on dvd of bayern munich seasons between 1972/73-1976/77 with information of more than hundred games...olso tons of kicker magacines and publikation with gameinformation and stats....

here information of bayern -munichs season 1974/75...it was bayern munichs worst ever bundesleaque season in days beckenbauer and müller in the team...breitner wasnt longer in the team and munich wasnt longer hungry after winning nearly everthing 12 months before(only focused in europeanchampionscup)..bayern has finished the season 10th ranked in the leaque with 34/34 points and negative 57/63 goals..

müller has scored 23 goals , has assistet 11 goals and sucessful has created 2 penaltys in 33 games..this means he has directly contributed for 66% of his teams goals in 33 games he has played..and funny enough he has played sometimes behind the other forwads in away games ..example..away against cologne(beckenbauer didnt play) munich did loose 1:0, cologne won with a giftpenalty..müller has played a impressive doublelibero position in this game with schwarzenbeck....recources the dvd gameghlight and commentary i own and the kickermagacine gamereport i own....

here the stats of some players same season

beckenbauer 33 games,1 goal,5 assists
schwarzenbeck 34 games,3 goals, 1 assist
hoeness 28 games , 8 goals ,5 assists
kapellmann 33 games, 4 goals,6 assists,1 created penalty..
rummenigge 21 games ,5 goals, 1 assist
wunder 27 games ,4 goals,3 assists
roth 24 games ,4 goals, 2 assists
dürnberger 31 games,0 goals,2 assists..

müller 33 games ,23 goals, 11 assists, 2 created penalty..

this are stats of a opportunist..right james???(by far the best goalscoringrate and by far the best assist rate of the team in this season and sometimes not playing a 9......

example..the best assister for gladbach(bundesleaquechampion 1974/75) was bonhof with 12 assists..gladbach has scored about 30 more goals than bayern this season..

wondering what other striker/goalscorers did ignoring this players goals ...

müller has assistet with backheel passes 4 bundesleaque goals between season 1972/73-1975/76 , videofootage i own of 3 assist.....2 backheel pass assists he did 1970/1972 for the german NT..videofootage i own...(timespan of 6 years..)

tell me one player who is or was more sucessful in this category assists of goal with backheelpassing/vision ..

-------

very close call...lol...wondering whats a bad offside call for you..rysbergen looked straight in the back of müller and holding his hand straight up suggesting a offside..

Calm down! wHO SAID "OPPORTUNIST" is the bad thing? You are just very sensitive with the word/term and MISUNDERTOOD it

The word "opportunist" represent a one a main attributes for a striker in order to seek goal scoring chance in two obvious scenarios:
1- Be at right place and right time
2- Beating the offside trap of opponent defense

For this attribute, NO ONE could train you as it's either built in your blood or zero! For example, players like Robinho, Messi, Henry, Ibra ... are very skillful, but they do NOT possess much of this attribute!
Muller got this as a GIFT (but of course he has many other strenhgths as I litsed on previous post) I do rate Muller very high and even in TOP10 all time!

Muller was not just the best finisher in the team, but among the BEST FINISHER of all time along with Pele, Puskas, Leonidas, Romario, Ronaldo

[Tribune]

Calm down! wHO SAID "OPPORTUNIST" is the bad thing? You are just very sensitive with the word/term and MISUNDERTOOD it

The word "opportunist" represent a one a main attributes for a striker in order to seek goal scoring chance in two obvious scenarios:
1- Be at right place and right time
2- Beating the offside trap of opponent defense

For this attribute, NO ONE could train you as it's either built in your blood or zero! For example, players like Robinho, Messi, Henry, Ibra ... are very skillful, but they do NOT possess much of this attribute!
Muller got this as a GIFT (but of course he has many other strenhgths as I litsed on previous post) I do rate Muller very high and even in TOP10 all time!

Muller was not just the best finisher in the team, but among the BEST FINISHER of all time along with Pele, Puskas, Leonidas, Romario, Ronaldo

James, you should know better than engaging in a discussion with 621380 about Muller.
It's like talking with a phone automaton. Let's say you just dialed a number for such an automaton, for instance "621380". The answer will be along the lines :
"Hi ! You have just called the Gerd Muller hotline. Here we are operating according to the principle that Gerd Muller is the best thing which happened to mankind since the birth of Christ. The nutrubbing starts after the signal.
BEEP!
Hi, did you know that Superman sleeps with Gerd Muller pyjamas ?"

While no one can deny that 62130 has a ton of magazines, a mountain of dvd-s and he would probably be able to tell you what kind of pants did Gerd Muller wear on 27 March 1968, all he is interested in is to post 1 million details about Gerd Muller and have a wank.

[621380]

James, you should know better than engaging in a discussion with 621380 about Muller.
It's like talking with a phone automaton. Let's say you just dialed a number for such an automaton, for instance "621380". The answer will be along the lines :
"Hi ! You have just called the Gerd Muller hotline. Here we are operating according to the principle that Gerd Muller is the best thing which happened to mankind since the birth of Christ. The nutrubbing starts after the signal.
BEEP!
Hi, did you know that Superman sleeps with Gerd Muller pyjamas ?"

While no one can deny that 62130 has a ton of magazines, a mountain of dvd-s and he would probably be able to tell you what kind of pants did Gerd Muller wear on 27 March 1968, all he is interested in is to post 1 million details about Gerd Muller and have a wank.

however some information i did in response to james is still informative in some points in my opinion...maybe not for you but maybe for some others..(or do you think other forumsmembers other than gregoriak knew that müller has played ,example,a liberorole against cologne 1975, or his impressive assist rate in season 1974/75, that he has played behind the other forwards in games too 1974/75, not only strictly a 9..)(example ,it was james where did suggest müller was a opportunist ,period)...i think james is man enough to handle my response...your response is only bad tactic,sarkasmus or whatever against me....