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TKORL
11 Oct 2009, 07:07 PM
Took your temperature today? :eek: ...
Well I'll change my statement, if you pick an all time XI, out of the aforementioned all but one would have to be on the bench.
kingkong1
11 Oct 2009, 07:21 PM
Well I'll change my statement, if you pick an all time XI, out of the aforementioned all but one would have to be on the bench.Who? Ronaldo? (that's how I could interpret your last post as well)...
TKORL
11 Oct 2009, 07:40 PM
Who? Ronaldo? (that's how I could interpret your last post as well)...
No, not so much the identity of the player, but you named mostly creative attackers.

The reason is that I'm assuming Pele and Maradona are on the team, which means if you're putting two no. 10's and if you put on any more 10's you lack players to win midfield battles, retain the ball, etc. and you need to play one striker as a pure finisher, which puts Muller there as the best of his type.

-----------------Muller------------------
-----------------Pele-------------------
----------------Maradona---------------
---------X------------------X------------
LB-----------Beckenbauer--------------RB---
---------CB--------------CB------------

Basically you need right sided and left sided midfielders that excel in both attack and defense, and players like Garrincha would be wasted in midfield battles.


Or if you add one from the list and play two strikers you could get

---------------Muller----Ronaldo----------------
--------------Maradona---Pele-------------------
----------------------X---------------------------
LB-----------Beckenbauer--------------RB---
---------CB--------------CB------------
Moishe
11 Oct 2009, 09:34 PM
I've seen very little film of DiStefano but what I do of him particularly his time at river I get from my Dad and my two Uncles who to this day are the only gallinas in the family and they don't even rank him above Charo Moreno or Angel Labruna, or El Maestro Pedernera.

Clearly he was an outstanding player but how much of his legend is based of the cross cultural direction his career involved?
comme
12 Oct 2009, 05:54 AM
I've seen very little film of DiStefano but what I do of him particularly his time at river I get from my Dad and my two Uncles who to this day are the only gallinas in the family and they don't even rank him above Charo Moreno or Angel Labruna, or El Maestro Pedernera.

Clearly he was an outstanding player but how much of his legend is based of the cross cultural direction his career involved?

You can do this with every player though.

Take Pele. Many Brazilians will argue that Pele was not as good as Garrincha. Many Europeans would say that Garrincha was not as good as Stanley Matthews. Numerous British observers would say that Matthews wasn't as good as Billy Meredith, who in turn wasn't as good as Billy Bassett. Bassett wasn't as good as "the prince of dribblers", Jamie Weir, or Robert Vidal. So how good was Pele?
kingkong1
12 Oct 2009, 09:48 AM
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1544/pele1000.jpg
kingkong1
12 Oct 2009, 09:56 AM
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/4431/distefanocupsmarca.jpg
kingkong1
12 Oct 2009, 10:03 AM
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3977/garrincha43.jpg
kingkong1
12 Oct 2009, 10:05 AM
Pelé, Di Stéfano, Garrincha: unarguable.:D
babaorum
12 Oct 2009, 12:01 PM
Beckenbauer was the equal of his contemporary (Crujiff) in skill.

I didn't say he wasn't. The thing is that I see Beckenbauer more as a great conductor and Cruyff more as a brilliant soloist. Karajan vs Menuhin if you prefer... Each of them were the best at what they did but at the end of the day, which one would you pick ? I have to say I would chose the soloist... I guess it's a matter of personal preferences...
Gregoriak
12 Oct 2009, 01:37 PM
I didn't say he wasn't. The thing is that I see Beckenbauer more as a great conductor and Cruyff more as a brilliant soloist. Karajan vs Menuhin if you prefer... Each of them were the best at what they did but at the end of the day, which one would you pick ? I have to say I would chose the soloist... I guess it's a matter of personal preferences...

Beckenbauer was also a great soloist:

Beckenbauer Solo 1970
JamesBH11
12 Oct 2009, 04:28 PM
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3977/garrincha43.jpg

This is a very good illustration of Garrincha's dribbling skills. In his best form, NO ONE could stop him, but the TEAM (at least 3,4 good defenders surrounding)

In term of dribbling and ball control, Garrincha was surely better than Pele. However, those categories are not solely to determine a player's talent. Pele got other attributes: leadership, team work, vision, header , athleticism (only if Garrincha was not an "alcoholic") and lastly clinical finishing
babaorum
12 Oct 2009, 04:36 PM
Beckenbauer was also a great soloist:

Beckenbauer Solo 1970 (www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZadCk5VBdRo)

Of course he was, as you can expect from the other great conductors of the game.
Karajan or Boulez were/are genuine pianists but they're obviously most renowned for their ability to conduct an orchestra. The same goes for Beckenbauer in my mind.

Inversely the great soloists of the game (Pele, Maradona, Cruyff...) were obviously also outstanding conductors but you remember them most... for being soloists ! Like Menuhin or Rostropovitch. Anyway that's how I see it... :)
621380
13 Oct 2009, 08:24 AM
This is a very good illustration of Garrincha's dribbling skills. In his best form, NO ONE could stop him, but the TEAM (at least 3,4 good defenders surrounding)

In term of dribbling and ball control, Garrincha was surely better than Pele. However, those categories are not solely to determine a player's talent. Pele got other attributes: leadership, team work, vision, header , athleticism (only if Garrincha was not an "alcoholic") and lastly clinical finishing

.the picture suggest that he takes it against 8 defenders without reason....a teamplayer dont do that in such a situation...there must be at least 7 unmarked teamates on the field ...the picture dont comfirm he was sucessful ,maybe he finally did loose the ball and what did he win..??????
squidward123
13 Oct 2009, 10:05 AM
Of course he was, as you can expect from the other great conductors of the game.
Karajan or Boulez were/are genuine pianists but they're obviously most renowned for their ability to conduct an orchestra. The same goes for Beckenbauer in my mind.

Inversely the great soloists of the game (Pele, Maradona, Cruyff...) were obviously also outstanding conductors but you remember them most... for being soloists ! Like Menuhin or Rostropovitch. Anyway that's how I see it... :)

It depends on the tv coverage available now. There are many more clips that could be available of beckenbauer doing that for germany and bayern.
kingkong1
13 Oct 2009, 10:23 AM
I didn't say he wasn't. The thing is that I see Beckenbauer more as a great conductor and Cruyff more as a brilliant soloist. Karajan vs Menuhin if you prefer... Each of them were the best at what they did but at the end of the day, which one would you pick ? I have to say I would chose the soloist... I guess it's a matter of personal preferences...All the great legends were only legends because they were solosists & conductors at the same time.

That's what the image that clip on Beckenbauer passes to us: of the maestro who at a certain point of the 'rehearsal' (probably) irritated with the performance of the spalla takes the Stradivarius from his hands and exemparly shows him how to play that motif.

Garrrincha did the same in the 1962 WV, doing the inverse route: without quitting his Stradivarius he (with the unexpected 'illness' of the conductor) assumed the maestro role & gave the right tone to the orchestra.

Pelé, Puskas, Di Stéfano, Kopa, Didi, Kocsis, Evaristo, Cruyjff, Maradona, Platini, Zico, Zidane, Messi etc all assumed both roles - and that's why they are geniuses.;)
TKORL
13 Oct 2009, 11:11 AM
I think it's a little premature to put Messi there.
comme
13 Oct 2009, 11:31 AM
Pelé, Puskas, Di Stéfano, Kopa, Didi, Kocsis, Evaristo, Cruyjff, Maradona, Platini, Zico, Zidane, Messi etc all assumed both roles - and that's why they are geniuses.;)

Kocsis? The guy was an out and out striker. On no team did he played as the conductor.
Triton
13 Oct 2009, 02:12 PM
Kocsis? The guy was an out and out striker. On no team did he played as the conductor.

Neither is Messi a true team conductor. I call conductors guys like Beckenbauer or Platini, who possessed a much different (and more polished, versatile) game and style than the brilliant Argentinian, a game which he is unlikely to develop during the next years, although it's possible.

Howewer, we are very lucky having the privilege to see him grow as a player.
kingkong1
13 Oct 2009, 03:30 PM
Kocsis? The guy was an out and out striker. On no team did he played as the conductor.Kocsis was not a plain striker like Müller or Vavá.

Hungary played without playmakers & strikers in the modern sense of the word (concepts just fully established by Di Stéfano & Didi, Fontaine & Vavá) and were ALL attack.

The Mighty Magyars - as the 2nd or 3rd best NT ever - were all conductors & soloists - and that's why they were revolutionary avant la lettre.;)

Anyway my post brought the idea that geniuses are players that reunite both aspects.

And you didn't stop a mere second to consider what really mattered in it - & just tried to pick in the floor some crumbles that might contradict it.

How mean, mate! :p ...