My grand plan to revamp the League Cup

[E17Avenue]

A blog on the BBC's forum 606 calls for measures to help reduce the fixture stress placed on some of the top players in England.

My proposal for the new League Cup involves replacing pre-season friendlies with something meaningful, but still something where you can put out the reserves or try new players or systems. The first round plays out while the Intertoto Cup is going on, the second round slots in just before the season starts.

The first two rounds are on a round-robin basis, using groups based on geography and league placing. Teams are divided up into 12 per region, and then listed in order of their placing last year. Group play is just once versus each team, with the lower seeded team getting home advantage in each case. So in the first example below the fixtures are just: Rochdale v Accrington, Rochdale v Crewe, Accrington v Crewe. This gives the smaller teams a chance to sell out against a bigger local rival. The Germans use that principle in their DFB-Pokal.

96 teams are invited, the 92 from the Premiership and FL, and the top 4 Conference teams - the 2 relegated and last year's 3rd and 4th or playoff losers or whatever. The top 48 (Premiership, Championship and top four of League 1) begin play in round 2.

ROUND 1

Northwest
1 Crewe
2 Oldham
3 Port Vale
4 Chester
5 Accrington
6 Bury
7 Morecambe
8 Stockport
9 Rochdale
10 Macclesfield
11 Wrexham
12 Burton

Group NW1: Crewe, Accrington, Rochdale
Group NW2: Oldham, Bury, Macclesfield
Group NW3: Port Vale, Morecambe, Wrexham
Group NW4: Chester, Stockport, Burton

Northeast
1 Nottm Forest
2 Leeds
3 Doncaster
4 Hartlepool
5 Huddersfield
6 Darlington
7 Chesterfield
8 Rotherham
9 Bradford
10 Grimsby
11 Mansfield
12 Notts County

Group NE1: Nottm Forest, Darlington, Notts County
Group NE2: Leeds, Chesterfield, Bradford
Group NE3: Doncaster, Huddersfield, Grimsby
Group NE4: Hartlepool, Rotherham, Mansfield

Southwest
1 Swindon
2 Northampton
3 Yeovil
4 Walsall
5 Bristol Rovers
6 Cheltenham
7 Bournemouth
8 MK Dons
9 Hereford
10 Shrewsbury
11 Torquay
12 Aldershot

Group SW1: Swindon, Cheltenham, Aldershot
Group SW2: Northampton, MK Dons, Hereford
Group SW3: Yeovil, Bournemouth, Torquay
Group SW4: Walsall, Bristol Rovers, Shrewsbury

Southeast
1 Southend
2 Brighton
3 Luton
4 Gillingham
5 Millwall
6 Barnet
7 Peterborough
8 Wycombe
9 Brentford
10 Dag & Red
11 Lincoln
12 Stevenage

Group SE1: Southend, Barnet, Lincoln
Group SE2: Brighton, Wycombe, Stevenage
Group SE3: Luton, Barnet, Brentford
Group SE4: Gillingham, Millwall, Dag & Red

The top team in each group moves on to Round 2, drawn at random to the Round 2 groups in the same region (NW/NE/SW/SE).

ROUND 2

Northwest
1 Man U
2 Man C
3 Blackburn
4 Liverpool
5 Everton
6 Wigan
7 Bolton
8 Stoke
9 Burnley
10 Preston
11 Blackpool
12 Tranmere

Group NW1: Man U, Wigan, Blackpool, ?
Group NW2: Man C, Bolton, Tranmere, ?
Group NW3: Blackburn, Stoke, Burnley, ?
Group NW4: Liverpool, Everton, Preston, ?

Northeast
1 Newcastle
2 Sunderland
3 Middlesbrough
4 Derby
5 Watford
6 Scunthorpe
7 Barnsley
8 Hull
9 Leicester
10 Sheff Utd
11 Sheff Wed
12 Carlisle

Group NE1: Newcastle, Hull, Sheff Wed, ?
Group NE2: Sunderland, Barnsley, Sheff Utd, ?
Group NE3: Middlesbrough, Scunthorpe, Leicester, ?
Group NE4: Derby, Watford, Carlisle, ?

Southwest
1 Portsmouth
2 Aston Villa
3 Reading
4 Birmingham
5 Bristol City
6 West Brom
7 Wolves
8 Plymouth
9 Southampton
10 Coventry
11 Cardiff
12 Swansea

Group SW1: Portsmouth, Wolves, Southampton, ?
Group SW2: Aston Villa, Plymouth, Coventry, ?
Group SW3: Reading, Bristol City, Cardiff, ?
Group SW4: Birmingham, West Brom, Swansea, ?

Southeast
1 Arsenal
2 Chelsea
3 West Ham
4 Fulham
5 Tottenham
6 Ipswich
7 Charlton
8 Colchester
9 Crystal Palace
10 QPR
11 Norwich
12 Leyton Orient

Group SE1: Arsenal, Tottenham, Crystal Palace, ?
Group SE2: Chelsea, Ipswich, QPR, ?
Group SE3: West Ham, Charlton, Norwich, ?
Group SE4: Fulham, Colchester, Leyton Orient, ?

Yes I have Watford in the north east, I needed someone to balance out the numbers and I picked them cos I hate Elton John. Couldn't see where else to pull one team from without drawing all the names out on a map.

Top team in each group qualifies for the round of 16, which starts the knockout phase. Just three rounds and then the final to fit in the calendar. Much less messing about than with the current League Cup. And these two rounds take the place of the pointless pre-season friendlies in which many clubs will play their neighbours anyway.

What do you think of this grand plan - which is nothing but a rewrite of some of the Germans' ideas, but then again, how often are THEY burnt out at a World Cup? As the article suggests, Owen Hargreaves was England's stand-out player at the last WC and he was the only one who had a winter break. Maybe changing the League Cup format will help reduce stress on the players or allow for more midweek league games to open up room for a break.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A28645293

[Bluebirds Boyo]

Isn't all you're creating is a nightmare for our police and the same fixtures year-after-year?

[Peakite]

I doubt it would help bring more meaning to pre-season anyway. If clubs were to take the competition seriously with such a format then they would schedule games beforehand, in effect lengthening the season. Or they could treat it purely as a warm up and the reputation of the cup decreases further.

Sides knocked out in the first group phase would need to find friendlies to fill the gap, or those who qualify would need to drop games (creating problems for the sides they are due to play).

It reduces the opportunities for non-league sides to play their professional near neighbours (which can give them a good financial boost) and it would interfere with lucrative foreign trips (one thing which isn't a problem for me, but some clubs wouldn't like it).

Additionally, if you were going to regionalise the groups, it would make more sense given the shape of the country to have north, midlands, south east and south. The boundaries of the latter two passing through London so some sides get to play the Anglian based sides and some with those on the south coast.

[E17Avenue]

It wouldn't be the same fixtures every year as you have a random draw based on previous league placing, so one year Liverpool might get Everton and Tranmere, the next year they could get Wigan and Bury.

I understand the comment about clubs taking it seriously or not, but isn't that what clubs do with the League Cup now? Except it's in the middle of the season and midweek, and in the way.

There's still time for the matches with non-league clubs. The top two divisions play theirs earlier while the lower league clubs play their round. And the lower league clubs play theirs once their knocked out - which will be the case for 67% of them. Or play those friendlies as warm-ups to the League Cup season.

I think the only issue would be, let's say Millwall are playing Orient for the right to play in the Arsenal etc group. The winner would be host to the bigger club, so they would need 10 days notice at current regulations to tell the police "hey we're playing Arsenal, can you attend". That's the only flaw in the plan I think. Although they reschedule weather affected games just 3 days later, so maybe some provisional arrangement can be made.

[E17Avenue]

Oh yes and I like the idea about splitting London across the two regions, that would make the Watford conundrum above a lot easier to solve. With 10 clubs in or near the Premiership it is a very heavy region so breaking it in two would also help balance things out. The only other region with the same sort of concentration of top teams is Lancashire with about 8 in or near the Premiership. Splitting London would not kill local derbies either, something I tried to avoid in my example by not pulling West Brom into the NW region and losing their games with Birmingham and Villa, for example.

[RichardL]

I understand the comment about clubs taking it seriously or not, but isn't that what clubs do with the League Cup now? Except it's in the middle of the season and midweek, and in the way..
clubs treat it lightly now, but not as lightly as a pre-season friendly. It'd make more sense to just have the first two or three rounds regionalised.

[Salop]

I think your geography might be a little off there, chap, you seem to have forgotten about the existence of this little place called "the Midlands".

How you've managed to put Burton Albion in the Northwest section with Shrewsbury in the Southwest is beyond me.

[Placid Casual]

I think your geography might be a little off there, chap, you seem to have forgotten about the existence of this little place called "the Midlands".

How you've managed to put Burton Albion in the Northwest section with Shrewsbury in the Southwest is beyond me.

Not to mention that Leicester and the rest of the East Midlands in the North East section.

Northampton in the Southwest is a headscratcher as well.

I for one cannot wait for the game against our big local rivals Darlington and Hartlepool.

[Salop]

Lol, I've just spotted Carlisle and - wait for it - Watford in that section as well.

WTF??????????????

[BocaFan]

96 teams are invited, the 92 from the Premiership and FL, and the top 4 Conference teams - the 2 relegated and last year's 3rd and 4th or playoff losers or whatever. The top 48 (Premiership, Championship and top four of League 1) begin play in round 2.


The top 4 conference teams are already involved in the FA Trophy. So that means those clubs will be involved in 3 nation-wide cup competitions with a Wembley final??

Geezus! I thought 2 was already overkill!

[Peakite]

The top 4 conference teams are already involved in the FA Trophy. So that means those clubs will be involved in 3 nation-wide cup competitions with a Wembley final??

Geezus! I thought 2 was already overkill!

Third and fourth tier clubs already are.

[E17Avenue]

I think someone might be confusing the *Insert Stupid Sponsor Name Here* Football League Trophy with the FA Trophy?

As for the geography, yes it is a little off, but the lists are for illustration purposes only. I know there is something called the Midlands, but there was no easy way of making four geographic divisions *and* having one of them be the Midlands. The idea was to *allow* for *more* local derbies, not *guarantee* them. How can you guarantee a local derby if there are 14 clubs in one region and just 6 in another the same size? And yes I know Watford are out of place, it even says so *with an explanation* in the example.

Instead of picking every fault with the geographic distribution, which *admittedly* was off as I did not have time to draw everyone out on a map, why not comment on the actual proposal?

[Salop]

Fair enough.

I think it's a nice idea. However, I think the fact that you struggled to divide the teams up geographically to fit the format just shows it's shortcomings. Managers moan enough about playing far away league games as it is. Imagine the uproar when they get told they'll have to travel at least x miles for their away game because the format doesn't allow them to play in a group where they can play more local sides. As it is, a midweek cup draw at Carlisle for Watford in the middle of two important Championship games would be considered simple bad luck. Being told they had to play in that section by the FA because they couldn't fit in any other would cause World War 3.

Then there's the police to think about. Most local derby games are moved to Sunday 12 o clock kick off on police "advice" (which means, in real terms, police orders) even in league 2. What makes you think that the police wouldn't strongly reccomend the FA to avoid a system which deliberately attempts to throw up local derbies? Just looking at that South West section: supposing these games are played pre-season, all games between Shrewsbury and Walsall, Shrewsbury and Hereford and Yeovil and Torquay would definitely be moved to Sunday 12 o clock Kick Offs with a police presence in the stadium. Games between Swindon and Hereford, Swindon and Bristol Rovers, Hereford and Bristol Rovers, Shrewsbury and Swindon, Bristol Rovers and Cheltenham and Hereford and Cheltenham would certainly require a police presence in the stadium (which would have to be paid for by the home club)

So you'd essentially be landing a load of smaller clubs with games at unattractive times (hence low gates) and high police bills. As they are, derby games twice a year can still usually attract a reasonable gate despite police restrictions, although they're considerably down on what they would be on a Saturday 3pm Kick Off. Shrewsbury's last away trip to Wrexham on November 4th, a Sunday 12 o clock Kick Off, drew a crowd of just over 4,000 despite nearly 1,500 away fans making the trip. Throw an extra 3 or 4 derby games into the mix and the derby ceases to be a special game and fans get sick of Sunday 12 o clock (or Friday 7 45pm) KOs and gates drop across the board. Many of the smaller clubs rely on these increased gate receipts to keep going and can offset policing costs against that provided it's not too frequent an occurance. Any move that threatens that is unlikely to be popular with the smaller clubs.

Not to mention the fact that pre season is when it is for a reason. No one wants to be watching football in July and August. People are on holiday or at festivals or just generally enjoying the sunshine on the weekends in Summer, so derby gates would probably be further reduced and gates against non local teams would be tiny at that time of year. Going back to that proposed South West section, a pre season tie between Shrewsbury and Yeovil at New Meadow, for example, would be lucky to attract a gate of more than 2,000 whereas the same fixture on a weeknight during the season might draw a crowd of 3,500 - 4,000. In short, it doesn't make financial sense for the smaller clubs, who it's supposed to benefit.

What would be really good, in a similar vein, would be a system whereby clubs like, say, the smaller West Midlands sides, eg Shrewsbury, Walsall and Hereford could play a first round game to win the opportunity to face Wolves, Albion or Villa, or Bristol Rovers, Cheltenham and Yeovil could play for the chance to play Bristol City and Plymouth. However, as you said, logistically it's a nightmare, and police would not be happy about a tournament that's that locally minded.

[Peakite]

I think someone might be confusing the *Insert Stupid Sponsor Name Here* Football League Trophy with the FA Trophy?

Yourself?

Neither of us to mention these competitions have.

[Leedsunited]

Can't speak for anyone else, but the Police would surely have strong objections to the likes of Huddersfield, Leeds and Bradford playing each other in pre-season, given the emnity between local clubs.

[Y&B POWER]

what i'd like to see is an all British cup with teams throughout the kingdom especially where the OF clubs would have a chance competing top EPL teams on an annual basis

[Leedsunited]

what i'd like to see is an all British cup with teams throughout the kingdom especially where the OF clubs would have a chance competing top EPL teams on an annual basis

That couldn't happen, as it would technically be a continental competition, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own FA's. See the trouble teams like Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham have had getting into the English FA.

[forza_imps]

Lincoln isn't in the Southeast, doesn't make any sense to have us in that group, when all our rivals are in the northeast one.

[thejuggernaut]

Big Ups to E17 for, at the very least, going out on a limb and coming up with a thought-out idea. Too many people are quick to criticize the superfluous nuance and then go out and provide little, if any, constructive criticism to my man's plan. I think it's a positive alternative to the most likely of future of the League Cup... extinction.

[forza_imps]

Big Ups to E17 for, at the very least, going out on a limb and coming up with a thought-out idea. Too many people are quick to criticize the superfluous nuance and then go out and provide little, if any, constructive criticism to my man's plan. I think it's a positive alternative to the most likely of future of the League Cup... extinction.

Nah, the League Cup will be around forever. It's the Football League's biggest payday, 90,000 people at Wembley is worth a lot.

Add that to the clubs' whose only chance of winning something is in the League Cup, then I don't think it will be scrapped.