Another Standing Debate Ends In Dissapointment

[purpleronnie]

Sutcliffe stands firm on seating (www.bbc.co.uk)

Bradford South MP Sutcliffe took up his role in June 2007
Sports minister Gerry Sutcliffe will not allow fans to stand at top games because of the Hillsborough disaster.
MPs have been trying to persuade him to change the rules which say supporters at Premier League and Championship clubs must sit down to watch a game.

Standing terraces in England were phased out in 1989 after Lord Justice Taylor's report into Hillsborough where 96 Liverpool fans lost their lives.

Sutcliffe told the BBC: "I've not heard anything to make me change my mind."


606: DEBATE
Should fans be allowed to stand?

The supporters died on 15 April 1989 when the Leppings Lane end at Sheffield Wednesday's ground became over-crowded at the start of Liverpool's FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest.

The official inquiry, conducted by Lord Taylor, blamed poor policing and inadequate facilities for the tragedy but the main recommendation was for the introduction of all-seater stadia and the removal of perimeter fencing.

And Sutcliffe, MP for Bradford South, continued: "I might be coloured because of events that took place in Sheffield, but I've listened to public safety officers, police and local authorities and it is vital to make the right decision based on the evidence before us."

[Harry Boulton]

You cannot make the assumption that supporters today are more responsible than they were 18 years ago. Introducing standing areas again poses the same questions.

Not a single person has died in a ground since 1989 as a result of crowd trouble I don't think, so the measures put in place are clearly effective....

[BlackburnRover]

Fair enough, that's the case but you could be more imaginative with the terracing, as in Germany.

[RichardL]

You cannot make the assumption that supporters today are more responsible than they were 18 years ago. Introducing standing areas again poses the same questions.....
one question being whether hillsborough was caused by fans being irresponsible. There isn't anything to suggest that.

People tend to tie up safety and hooliganism together, as if one caused the problems with the other.

[Milliano]

You cannot make the assumption that supporters today are more responsible than they were 18 years ago. Introducing standing areas again poses the same questions.


I think the point of their argument is that what happened 18 years ago was determined to be because of "poor facilities and poor policing" rather than this non issue (?) that you bring up about fan responsibility.

[BlackburnRover]

Exactly. I don't really think the Liverpool fans who were allowed to push into the back of the terrace would have done so if they'd have known what was happening to the Liverpool fans at the front of such a big terrace.

Terraces like that are packed at the best of times, you haven't a clue what's happening anywhere else.

Proper ticketing, control and better facilities would have prevented it and still will.

[RichardL]

Exactly. I don't really think the Liverpool fans who were allowed to push into the back of the terrace would have done so if they'd have known what was happening to the Liverpool fans at the front of such a big terrace.

Terraces like that are packed at the best of times, you haven't a clue what's happening anywhere else.

Proper ticketing, control and better facilities would have prevented it and still will.it wasn't even that big a terrace. The problem was that it had three acess tunnels and no way of controlling how many went down each. When it was build in the 1960s that wouldn't have been a problem, but once it was separated into pens it was a problem. It's not as if that was the first time there had been problems at that end.


As for the debate, sadly those who have the final say have entrenched themselves by saying that they won't change their minds unless it can be proven terracing is safe, and they won't accept evidence from Germany as proof. Essentially they not only demand proof comes from England, where obviously it's not possibly to obtain proof as terracing isn't allowed, but they also demand to have it proven that accidents can't happen, which is impossible to do.

[Marko]

I honestly don't see the issue here. Why is it so important to some people that they need to stand up while watching a game? I've never given it a second thought.

I don't believe the game needs to regress in this manner, and I'm pretty sure it will not. Standing is a thing of the past; let it rest there.

[Matt Clark]

I honestly don't see the issue here. Why is it so important to some people that they need to stand up while watching a game? I've never given it a second thought.
You've never been to a game and watched it from the middle of a standing terrace then. That's cool. As time marches on, fewer and fewer current football fans will be able to claim having done so. Those of us lucky enough to have been born before the nature of terracing at that time became insupportable, will always see the point in seeking it's return.

And I say that as someone who was at Hillsbrough.

[Marko]

Fair enough. The first few times I went to Old Trafford there were terraces but I chose not to stand so I've never had that experience there.

I have actually watched from the terraces at a football match several times, but that was in a section of the Popular Bank at Ninian Park in the early 90s before they put the seats in, and I realise that doesn't count, as it was the old Fourth Division and the crowds were rather sparse. :P

When "my" section of the "Bob" Bank became seated, I chose to stay there rather than stand elsewhere in the ground as that's what I prefer to do. But I'll respect those of you who want terraces brought back and retract somewhat on my original post.

[Colin Bell the King]

I honestly don't see the issue here. Why is it so important to some people that they need to stand up while watching a game? I've never given it a second thought.

I don't believe the game needs to regress in this manner, and I'm pretty sure it will not. Standing is a thing of the past; let it rest there.

You might have this view - but standing at football is natural. And the numbers of people standing at games seems to be on the increase season after season and the atmosphere improves the more people that stand.

Lets look at the team I follow. Last season there was only one block of fans that stood game after game. This was Block 116 of the South Stand (Which consists of the following blocks, each holding around 600/700 people - 111, 112, (113, 114 and 115, which are for away fans) and 116, 117, 118 and 119. At the time last season the stewards were on at the fans in 116 to sit down, and although the fans resisted the atmosphere was diluted as fans could not get behind thier team.

For some reason this season, the stewards have taken the attitude of being relaxed about standing. Also, they have introduced a singing section at the other side of the away fans (block 111 and 112) which now stand every game and they sing a hell of a lot. So City have standers at both side of the away fans.

This is not even taken into account block 117. Next to 116 this is my block. They rarely stood for extended periods last season, but this season a good 3/4 of the block stand every single game (We sat for like 45 minutes the first home game and that was it - I'm on row M and thats more towards the front) and the last few games Block 118 have been standing all game too, and they never did at the start of the season

So in the space of half a season, there is an additional 2000+ standers. And the atmosphere, although it is never as good as the old Kippax days, is improving and I am having one of the best seasons watching City at home than I have done for quite some time.

I love standing.

[Colin Bell the King]

You've never been to a game and watched it from the middle of a standing terrace then. That's cool. As time marches on, fewer and fewer current football fans will be able to claim having done so. Those of us lucky enough to have been born before the nature of terracing at that time became insupportable, will always see the point in seeking it's return.

And I say that as someone who was at Hillsbrough.


What is encouraging to notice is young lads in thier teens and early twenties who often stand, so I dont think the campaign will ever die out.

[LG David]

I stood at Chelsea the other night, like I did at Upton Park the round before and the atmosphere was fantastic.

We seem to be standing a lot at away games now. I prefer it.

[chrizzah]

Banning standing areas because of what happened at Hillsborough is a bit like banning low-riding pants because they attract crime. It doesn't in any way get at the cause of what happened. I think in the past there was an attitude of the more the merrier in the standing sections and that led to unsafe conditions. A standing area has a capacity just like a seated area and coming up with a plan to protect the safety of those in the standing area and ensuring that the capacity isn't overfilled is not rocket science.

Even if you want to make the claim that hooliganism largely occured in standing areas, a lack of seats didn't cause people to resort to criminal behavior. Standing areas were generally the cheapest seats and allowed troublemakers the cheapest means to access stadiums. I'd doubt that clubs would change their pricing structures if they had standing areas, so it's not as though you would get a sudden influx of a criminal element flocking to the new cheap-seated standing areas.

Standing at any game is definitely preferable. I have attended games in the past in England, but speaking more of my own experiences attending games regularly in DC, watching from the sections that chose to stand adds an electricity to the game whereas (and from personal experience I know the English sitting experience still maintains a higher level of energy) the sitting sections can at times feel as though your spending an afternoon watching the game on a giant screen at the cinema.

[Matt Clark]

Banning standing areas because of what happened at Hillsborough is a bit like banning low-riding pants because they attract crime.
It's much, much more complicated than that. The fact that all-seater stadia were a consequence of Hillsborough doesn't mean people at that time thought standing per se caused the tragedy, anymore than they do now. In fact, if you read the Taylor report, it's explicit on this point in the preface to the part that recommends the switch to all-seater stadia.

It is actually the case that all-seater stadia are nowadays erroneously seen as the principle outcome of Hillsborough and Taylor: they weren't. That aspect of the outcome was never more than a constituent part of a far wider-reaching perspective on the nature of the experience of going to a football match, the facilities that awaited you there and the behaviour, as well as treatment, of ordinary fans that such facilities engendered.

[CCSC_STRIKER20]

I honestly don't see the issue here. Why is it so important to some people that they need to stand up while watching a game? I've never given it a second thought.

I don't believe the game needs to regress in this manner, and I'm pretty sure it will not. Standing is a thing of the past; let it rest there.

Seeing videos of the Kop when it was a giant terrace makes me wish I could stand in the Kop singing and swaying with thousands of other supporters watching my team go for victory.

[BlackburnRover]

Having spent 15+ years standing on terraces and the same sitting in our nice new stadiums, I'd stand on a terrace anytime given the chance again.

There's been a lot of talk about lack of atmosphere lately, not only did its demise coincide with the introduction of the corporate fan but also the end of terracing.

To put a more philosophical angle on this, sitting's shite in comparison.;)

[Harry Boulton]

I guess sitting has proven to be a safe alternative and that will be paramount in a bodies thiknking when discussing this issue.


It's easy to regulate, it possibly makes more money for the clubs as well. I cannot see standing terraces coming back although as someone not old enough to have experienced a standing terrace, I would like to see what it was like.

[RichardL]

I cannot see standing terraces coming back although as someone not old enough to have experienced a standing terrace, I would like to see what it was like.Terraces are still there at most lower division grounds. Somehow terraces are safe as long as the players aren't being paid over £2000 a week, or maybe if they are using a rugby ball.