Red Bull New York Fans Questions about Loyalty

[DoctorK]

Ain't it funny. You're the first one to cry "troll," never mind the fact that you don't know what it means. And yet here you are. Walks like a troll, quacks like a troll...
You're also too dumb to know what "plastic" means, in terms of soccer fans. Hmm.

Apparently so. And I've paid for my sin with my first ever infraction.

Given the abuse Red Bull regularly endures on our boards, I didn't occur to me that I could be accused of trolling for that comment...

I can't make up a team name and sponsor as I did, as that's too insulting to fans of a team that doesn't yet have a name or exist, but you're allowed to call me "dumb," yet again.

Plastic means inauthentic in the world in which I speak Michael. I've still so much to learn from you. Please, explain to me how I'm guilty of malapropism.

Kubah, I recall Jets fans mocking Giants fans for supporting a "Jersey team" until they moved from Shea. They quickly learned the land owned and operated by the NJSEA was still local enough to continue to support their home team. As someone who has lived on both sides of the NY/NJ border, I've never found the state line arguement relevant in the context of a sports franchise. Its about regional identity. And I always enjoy the skyline as a backdrop to the tailgate.

So while you get a chuckle at some imagined inferiority complex that RB supporters might have in relation to a non-existent team, in truth there's just a confidence in knowing that I've a team to cheer for this Saturday night.

[Kubah]

Kubah, I recall Jets fans mocking Giants fans for supporting a Jersey team until they moved from Shea. They quickly learned the land owned and operated by the NJSEA was still local enough to continue to support their home team. As someone who has lived on both sides of the NY/NJ border, I've never found the state line arguement relevant in the context of a sports franchise. Its about regional identity.

So while you get a chuckle at some imagined inferiority complex that RB supporters might have in relation to a non-existent team, in truth there's just a confidence in knowing that I've a team to cheer for this Saturday night.
No chuckles here. I am serious about my belief that NYC should have a MLS team. I hope we can agree to disagree on the NJ/NY because at the end of the day I think it is all about preception, but two things:

1. I didn't go to the RBNY forum and bashed RBNY
2. Nor did I tell NY'ers who follow RBNY to support a NYC team.

I am sure in the future some NYC-FC yahoo might, but I hope that if there is a rivalry between NJ & NY it will be handled on a pitch in 2010 :D

[DoctorK]

Kubah,

I was responding to this quote from HATE: "Empire is as bad an association I can think of since it hearkens to the complete and total lameness of New Jersey."

While it would be thrilling to throw insults back and forth on a Big Apple Derby Day, I still contend that other cities/regions are more deserving of a franchise before NY gets a second.

I was in favor of Philly getting one, but after the way Bryan's edited so much of the rather innocuous exchanges in this thread I'm starting to reconsider that position! :p

[MasterShake]

Michael K..you seem to be telling everyone what to say and how to say it, as if you are some sort of soccer guru. Yet you fail to realize how "plastic" this topic really is.

Not supporting a local team (the most local it can be) because its not technically in your State is as "plastic" as it could get.

..while there are people in other huge cities who truly deserve a team, you are sitting around here with a team to support, to attend live games..right on your doorstep and you choose not to....thats as "plastic" as it could get.

Every sport has 2 NYC teams and no one wonders why the other exists

That is an unbelievable statement. MLS is much younger and smaller than NFL or MLB or NHL. You cannot compare other leagues to MLS.

oh and just so you guys know..the Statue of Liberty is technically in NJ.

[Michael K.]

Plastic means inauthentic in the world in which I speak Michael. I've still so much to learn from you. Please, explain to me how I'm guilty of malapropism.


What in the blue hell is "inauthentic" about a few ordinary fans, feeling little or no connection to the one shambling, ignoble and detached team lying far across the metropolitan area (which has made no real attempt at them, or which they're not inclined towards anyway) noting the splash a grassroots supporters group has made and trying to do the same? In fact, that sounds rather authentic to me. It may or may not work in the end, but it is real.

Note (or don't - I can't imagine that you care enough to look it up, and that's fine) that I am not having anything to do with their cause at the moment. Not that I think it's bad. Personally I think it's largely unnecessary. All the rumblings have been that Wilpon's at work on things, and so the team will look like he wants it to look, anyway. Perhaps he'll take some notice of what any "NYC FC"-type supporters club desires, and that would be nice.
An actual NYC team (you don't actually believe RB is the team of NYC, do you? That's all just rhetoric. Right?) makes tremendous sense intuitively, and a Mets/Wilpon/Queens association makes lots of sense logistically. It's probably left to Wilpon and his people to judge if it all makes sense economically for them. That cause could only be helped if RBNY was capable of showing that MLS soccer is a winning proposition in the NYC area. If only RBNY were anything other than completely inept and/or negligent when it comes to that.

I'm not defending the idea because I've got any skin in the game. I don't. I am not committing to anything or anyone. But you've got no reason to run them down for trying.

Such things are only "plastic" in that special cloudcuckooland, where you find a team's fans demanding that, preferences and desires aside, everyone else follows their lead, out of a twisted sense of obligation, or "just because." There is nothing "plastic" about people deciding there is more to be gained from working for their own future team, close to them, than there is in falling in behind the sad, long-suffering, humiliated bunch across the damn city and river, just because they're there now.

[Devil500]

I was born and raised in Queens,NY not NJ. Same reason I dont root for the Devils,Phillies,Eagles. Hell,im even pissed that the Jets dont come back to Shea!


Yeah yet your beloved American football teams are playing in Jersey and yet I don't see them complaining.....I was born in Brooklyn and now raised on the Island same shite yet I support my local club even it's across state lines which is just an imaginary line...Everything around the city in a 25-50mile radius can be considered part of the Metro area it's right on your doorstep..

Continue on drawing those imaginary lines and criteria for what is a local club is and it will just end up being located in your head and nowhere else...I think if we gathered up the 12+ years of bitching about this is it a NY team or not or what is considered NY/Metro Area we'd have more lines on a map that roads and directions.


Also good luck if you do get your team it's going to be fun just having these at stadiums just going back and forth.

[Michael K.]

Michael K..you seem to be telling everyone what to say and how to say it, as if you are some sort of soccer guru. Yet you fail to realize how "plastic" this topic really is.

Not supporting a local team (the most local it can be) because its not technically in your State is as "plastic" as it could get.


What the frigging hell is it with Red Bull fans and the word "plastic" this past season? You're like a bunch of two year olds who hear a naughty word and then use it endlessly, without knowing what you're saying. Yeesh. It's embarrassing.

I am telling who what to say, exactly? Say whatever you want. Think whatever you want. I'm just giving my opinion and nothing else. Sorry you can't keep up.

For some people, it is preferable to wait and speak up for a team they can call their own, rather than sucking up whatever is "the most local it can be." Because NYC's got a fairly good chance of happening in the near-to-medium term, they'll probably just keep waiting and speaking up. It's as simple as that.

[DoctorK]

In my opinion, a NYer refusing to support a team because they play on the west side of the Hudson isn't much of a NY sports fan. Strikes me as a weak excuse to avoid the effort it takes to support the one and only team here.

I don't mind people saying they want another team in NY. I object to people saying NY doesn't have a team. That's simply erroneous.

[Michael K.]

..while there are people in other huge cities who truly deserve a team

Your first mistake is in believing that any city "deserves" anything. Deserving will get you nothing. If Wilpon, or anyone of that ilk, drops a $30+ million dollar check and concrete plans for a new, 2010-ready NYC stadium on Garber's desk, he gets his wish. End of story.
No, wait, that's your second mistake.
Back to your first mistake: "other huge cities." There's huge, and then there's NYC huge.

2006 estimated populations, courtesy census.gov:

New York City: 8,214,426.
Philadelphia: 1,448,394.
Seattle: 582,454.
St. Louis: 347,181.

I'm not bothering to look for MSAs, which will of course be greater all around, but post em if you got em. The NYC market dwarfs the other current contenders, no matter how you cut it.

In my opinion, a NYer refusing to support a team because they play on the west side of the Hudson isn't much of a NY sports fan. Strikes me as a weak excuse to avoid the effort it takes to support the one and only team here.


What, besides proximity, makes that team deserving of fans' attention? An honest and sincere question.

[MasterShake]

What the frigging hell is it with Red Bull fans and the word "plastic" this past season? You're like a bunch of two year olds who hear a naughty word and then use it endlessly, without knowing what you're saying. Yeesh. It's embarrassing.


the fact that you pretend to support "soccer" is embarassing, not my use of the word "plastic". Get over yourself, mister big soccer moderator :eek::eek::rolleyes:

[DoctorK]

What, besides proximity, makes that team deserving of fans' attention? An honest and sincere question.

I honestly and sincerely believe that since they took over the franchise, they've made appropriate efforts to solidify connections with the greater NY metropolitan region. My guess is your stance on that is cynical, that its just done to market the energy drink. But I think a year and a half into their ownership, if all they cared to do was to market their energy drink, they could have much more easily and effectively have done so in other ways than owning and operating a Major League Soccer franchise.

RBFO treats the fanbase much better than MFO ever did. And from my perspective they are doing a much better job of trying to please NY soccer fans.

They haven't done this with an aggressive marketing campaign. Yet. Instead they are doing everything they can to provide the infrastructure for long-term success.

I couldn't stand the whole "NY/NJ" and then just "MetroStars" identity quagmire. For once and for all, and with a Zoff-off in the process, Red Bull settled the debate and unapologetically said "this is NY's team." That said, I can't stand snobbish anti-Jersey rhetoric, as if living or playing in Queens makes one superior to someone who does so in Bergen or Hudson counties.

As for if a team is worthy of a fan's attention... I think the Westchester Flames are worthy of my attention. I go as often as I can. But when the Flames and Red Bulls both have home games at the same time, I drive to East Rutherford instead of New Rochelle. Takes me just as long; it is a few miles more. But the quality of soccer in MLS is of the highest quality in this country. I want MLS to not just survive, but to thrive.

For twelve years now, as a soccer fanatic and a NY sports fan, for me its been quite simple: this team is my team. To say you're a soccer fan and a NY sports fan, but to turn your back on the one and only team that is here, on the grounds that (a) the team that plays its games at the Meadowlands is NJ not NY, or (b) simply isn't good enough, strikes me as inauthentic, ergo my usage of the term "plastic."

Years ago I most often heard the term "plastic" used in pubs, for "plastic Paddys." Do I need to explain that to you? Not sure how you've come to understand the term, MichaelK, but I still don't see how you're justified in calling me "dumb" and accusing me of malapropism.

Is it safe to assume, Michael, that if they were still called the MetroStars you would still think the team was deserving of fans' attention?

[QueensNick]

I have to be honest - i just never adapted them as my team. Not because they play in Jersey because the Jets do and I am a fan of them. The Location did have something to do with it. I mean I go to the meadowlands on Sunday but its one day a week. Soccer is played maybe twice a week and getting to that stadium was always difficult for the matches. Maybe I can blame myself for not trying to adapt them enough but the idea of a team playing in the area i was born and raised in is very exciting to me. Right now its not a NJ / NY thing but hopefully in a few years it will be!!! Good Luck to all - which ever of the local teams you select!

[Michael K.]

Instead they are doing everything they can to provide the infrastructure for long-term success.

Is it safe to assume, Michael, that if they were still called the MetroStars you would still think the team was deserving of fans' attention?

I'm running late, so let me address these two points only.

Where are the signs of this "infrastructure for long-term success"? The botched TV contract? The bungling, or throwing-away, of all the sponsorships? The total lack of marketing? The information vacuum that sucks up any and all news about the team's business, from who's in charge (De Grandpre or Hofl?) to who is or isn't partnering on the stadium? The fact that very little is really happening on the stadium, as we saw on the webcam today? The fact that in the best case, the BEST case scenario that they're holding out for you, Harrison opens in spring 2009, only to get totally annihilated by the simultaneous openings of Citifield and New Yankee Stadium? Is it the stirringly mediocre play on the field? Or is it the marketing doubletalk they shovel the fans, along with a few convenient sops? Where is all this "infrastructure" and progress? I see mostly same old Metro, only you're wearing and shouting for a soda logo.


If it were still the Metros, I'd still be giving the team my own attention and caring about them a hell of a lot more than I do now...but I'd be speaking up about many of the same things, and I'd accept, as I accepted then, that most of the area does not and will not ever care about this team. Look, I'm a longtime Metro fan and a lifelong Devils fan. I've got no problem with being that kind of team.

[southpaw817]

I honestly and sincerely believe that since they took over the franchise, they've made appropriate efforts to solidify connections with the greater NY metropolitan region. My guess is your stance on that is cynical, that its just done to market the energy drink. But I think a year and a half into their ownership, if all they cared to do was to market their energy drink, they could have much more easily and effectively have done so in other ways than owning and operating a Major League Soccer franchise.

RBFO treats the fanbase much better than MFO ever did. And from my perspective they are doing a much better job of trying to please NY soccer fans.

They haven't done this with an aggressive marketing campaign. Yet. Instead they are doing everything they can to provide the infrastructure for long-term success.

I couldn't stand the whole "NY/NJ" and then just "MetroStars" identity quagmire. For once and for all, and with a Zoff-off in the process, Red Bull settled the debate and unapologetically said "this is NY's team." That said, I can't stand snobbish anti-Jersey rhetoric, as if living or playing in Queens makes one superior to someone who does so in Bergen or Hudson counties.

As for if a team is worthy of a fan's attention... I think the Westchester Flames are worthy of my attention. I go as often as I can. But when the Flames and Red Bulls both have home games at the same time, I drive to East Rutherford instead of New Rochelle. Takes me just as long; it is a few miles more. But the quality of soccer in MLS is of the highest quality in this country. I want MLS to not just survive, but to thrive.

For twelve years now, as a soccer fanatic and a NY sports fan, for me its been quite simple: this team is my team. To say you're a soccer fan and a NY sports fan, but to turn your back on the one and only team that is here, on the grounds that (a) the team that plays its games at the Meadowlands is NJ not NY, or (b) simply isn't good enough, strikes me as inauthentic, ergo my usage of the term "plastic."

Years ago I most often heard the term "plastic" used in pubs, for "plastic Paddys." Do I need to explain that to you? Not sure how you've come to understand the term, MichaelK, but I still don't see how you're justified in calling me "dumb" and accusing me of malapropism.

Is it safe to assume, Michael, that if they were still called the MetroStars you would still think the team was deserving of fans' attention?

The Jets and Giants had pre-existing(enormous mind you)fan bases when they made the move to NJ. Soccer is a growing sport in America but MLS should have came to the conclusion that putting a team in NY would help in its popularity.You cant start with the team in NJ and then when you have the chance(there was a chance they were going to take the place of Aqueduct racetrack in Queens)you dont take it. NY is NY thats it! There are no blurry lines and no room for argument,I truly cant believe that this is even up for discussion.Is western NY part of Pennsylvania? I think any hardcore supporters of RBNY should be extremely happy that there might be a second team in NY. It will only help YOUR team. Just look at these posts! This thread was only started a week ago and there is already fire and passion,imagine that x1000 and that will be a NY/NJ(whatever the hell you wanna call it)rivalry. In the media capital of the world this would do wonders for the game,for all of us. No disrespect to the other cities in the running b/c they are all great cities but all the signs point to NY bringing the game to the next level. The passion for sports and this sport in general,the population,the media will all enhance the game in the US. And while im not a hardcore fan of RBNY I will support RBNY when they make the playoffs b/c they are all there is for now,but they will not be our team. Our team will play in the boroughs,I dont care if its in the Staten Island dumps.

[DoctorK]

MichaelK, I remember you mocked the idea of the training facility just a week or so before that official announcement. I don't think RB deserve any blame for the delays with RBP.

The dropping of sponsorship deals was deliberate. They're not blowing money on any marketing blitz until they feel the time is right.

I believe that Red Bull has given everything it can (while operating within the parameters of MLS) to the best possible person to turn this organization into a winning one.

And they've been very good to me and mine.

I'm not shouting for a soda logo. I'm singing for my home team.

I'd like to make one more, personal, point. As someone very involved in the local youth and adult soccer scenes, when the MetroStars became the NY Red Bulls, I could have turned my back on the club like you did, MichaelK. But if I would have done so, I would have been seen as petty and pretentious. Ultimately, it would have been self-defeating, denying myself the fun and excitement I've shared with friends and family over the past two seasons at the Swamp.

If and when there is a second NY team in MLS, local soccer administrators will be faced with an interesting conundrum. But until then, anyone telling kids in the metropolitan NY region that the local MLS team isn't worthy of their support is doing them a disservice.

NY is NY thats it! There are no blurry lines and no room for argument,I truly cant believe that this is even up for discussion.Is western NY part of Pennsylvania?

By this logic, you would support a team playing in Buffalo but not one in East Rutherford? :confused:

NY refers to the region. Not a new or difficult concept to grasp.

[Kubah]

I don't understand why RBNY fans even care? If there was a team in Queens called NYC-FC and they wanted to place another one in the Meadowland I could care less. I'm with QueensNick... its not about location with me either. I want a team with a NYC identity (arrogance, confidence, win-at-any-cost mentality, blue-collar work ethics, superstars/larger-than-life personalities, sense of entitlement, etc.). RBNY/MetroStars just has never had it for ME.

I have not see posts from supporters of a NYC FC that are bashing other cities. In fact, we have praised them for their organizations (i.e Sons of Ben and Phoenix Rising) and we hope to emulate them. I want to see cities with good fan bases come into the MLS. I believe a NY-Philly rivalry would be amazing for the league. No one that supports a NYC FC has even mentioned RBNY until RBNY fans brought it up today. Telling anyone that they should support a team because the owners paid $100 million to keep "New York" in their name is pointless. If the NY/NJ thing rubs you the wrong way, I don't know what to tell you. A regional NY team does not equal a NYC team. Look at the NY Islanders... their fans are in Long Island, not NYC. They are not the only one, the NY Mets are a Queens team no matter how hard they try (although after the devastating of this baseball season I wonder if either MLB team will have any fans).

To all the RBNY fans, good luck in the playoffs but I don't see the reason to get excited over a few guys talking about an imaginary team on an internet sub-forum.

Now can we get get this thread back on topic.

[Kubah]

But until then, anyone telling kids in the metropolitan NY region that the local MLS team isn't worthy of their support is doing them a disservice.
/agree

I hope we all want healthy MLS franchises. High attendance throughout the league is a good thing. Improving the quality of American soccer is a good thing. Increasing exposure of soccer and MLS is a good thing.

I really have not seen anti-RBNY or anti-NJ posts here. We just want a NYC team, but NY'ers are welcomed to support whoever they want. I would not have it any other way being a Yankees fan in Queens :eek:

[sublicon]

If you're a group of people who are just longing for a team on the 7 train, fine. But otherwise, you've gotta be kidding. I'm really not coming here to disrespect you guys, but you've got nothing to long for - you have a team. And there's an established and dedicated fan base that comes out to matches and has a great time - why don't you join us?

I mean, do what you want, but you do have to kind of admit if you become a NY version of Sons of Ben, it will sort of be sad. Are you going to go to NY home games like they do and and chant and sing against the Red Bulls, or what? If that's the case, then you might as well support the team anyway.

We could use you guys at Red Bull games, truthfully, we'd be glad to have you. I think if some of you actually came to a match, and I'll place bets that most of you haven't, you're missing out. If you really had any kind of love for the game, you wouldn't be assembling a supporters group because you don't like having to travel to the Meadowlands - you'd get on a bus and make the trek like the rest of us.

[Kubah]

Are you going to go to NY home games like they do and and chant and sing against the Red Bulls, or what? If that's the case, then you might as well support the team anyway.
Personally, I wouldn't boo the RBNY just to boo them. It's hard for there to be that type of rivalry now, since there is no existing NYC FC. That's why I don't understand the RBNY hate. If Chivas USA was playing them that's something else.

I probably should go to a RBNY game before the end of the season/playoffs, since I haven't been to the Meadowlands in a while. But they are not my team, so I would probably act like I do when my brother uses his Mets season tickets on me. I cheer good plays by the home team and enjoy watching live baseball, but I am just not excited about the end-results. Maybe the people that I take with me will become RBNY fans :D

[MasterShake]

Personally, I wouldn't boo the RBNY just to boo them. It's hard for there to be that type of rivalry now, since there is no existing NYC FC. That's why I don't understand the RBNY hate. If Chivas USA was playing them that's something else.

I probably should go to a RBNY game before the end of the season/playoffs, since I haven't been to the Meadowlands in a while. But they are not my team, so I would probably act like I do when my brother uses his Mets season tickets on me. I cheer good plays by the home team and enjoy watching live baseball, but I am just not excited about the end-results. Maybe the people that I take with me will become RBNY fans :D

are you sure youre a footy fan? i mean youre not gonna get 6-0 blowouts even if there is another NYFC