Euro 2008- the seeding system

[Hrvat]

Austria is the obvious jack pot, but I would take both Switzerland and Greece before Holland (although their game sucks big time at the moment).

[Cris 09]

Are you aware that in the entire history of Dutch football, in all of its appearances in international tournaments, Holland's NEVER failed to get to the second stage? It's literally never happened that we had to go home after failure in the group stages. I'm pretty sure that the other European nations are aware of this fact and as a result it's pretty fair to assume that they don't exacly welcome the prospect of being drawn into a group with the Dutch.

Not true, in 1934 and 38 they only made the first round and while the real kicker is that they have also failed to qualify 7 times.

And this is just the WC.

For the Euros. they failed to reach the second round once in 1980 while not even qualifying another 4 times.

So 11 times, they actually sat and watched* the tournaments from home!!


*In the early 30's they probably listened to it on the radio instead.:)

[johan neeskens]

Not true, in 1934 and 38 they only made the first round and while the real kicker is that they have also failed to qualify 7 times.

And this is just the WC.

For the Euros. they failed to reach the second round once in 1980 while not even qualifying another 4 times.

So 11 times, they actually sat and watched* the tournaments from home!!


*In the early 30's they probably listened to it on the radio instead.:)

In the 1930s 'football was a minority sport in the Netherlands, I didn't even count those in. I did forget about 1980, you got me there.

Still, I was referring to APPEARANCES in international tournaments. So in the entire post-war history of international tournaments that Holland qualified for, we failed to get past the group stage ONCE, and that was over 25 years ago. So the conclusion still stands; WHEN Holland qualify, they DO get past the group stages. Would that be fair to conclude in your view? And guess what, we qualified for Euro 2008!

[Cris 09]

In the 1930s 'football was a minority sport in the Netherlands, I didn't even count those in. I did forget about 1980, you got me there.

Still, I was referring to APPEARANCES in international tournaments. So in the entire post-war history of international tournaments that Holland qualified for, we failed to get past the group stage ONCE, and that was over 25 years ago. So the conclusion still stands; WHEN Holland qualify, they DO get past the group stages. Would that be fair to conclude in your view? And guess what, we qualified for Euro 2008!

So it is convenient to “not count” the ones during the 1930’s because according to you, football was a minority sport back then?? What was the major sport in Holland at the time? Surfing?

Funny how history all of the sudden does not exist any more because it does not work with you argument.

Anyway, let’s start from 1958 then. 13 World Cups. Holland qualified for 6. That’s less than 50%. It would be better to have gotten out on the 1group phase than not even go at all…I couldn’t call that a real success rate.

11 Euro Cups (we won’t count 196- since they didn’t enter the competition)…out of those 11, Holland participated in 7…with an automatic berth due to being hosts in 2000. Out of the 7, they failed to reach the 2nd round once in 1980. That’s only about an 85% success rate in the Euros.


I will count the 1930’s however for this complete analysis
8 WC appearances; two 1st round exits.
7 Euro appearances; one 1st round exit
Total 15 Competitions; three 1st round exits = 80% success rate.

Now if you want to get even more technical, in 1990, Holland made the 2nd round on 3 draws, and then lost the 1st game of the 2nd round. In Portugal 2004, they had only 1 win, two draws and two losses and in England 96 they had one win, two draws and a loss…so yes, they made the second round…but they didn’t come in owning the tourney either.

Other than 1974, 78 (finalists) and 88 (Euro Champs), the Dutch have been pretty mediocre as a tournament team.

Sorry, that is what I conclude in my view.

[johan neeskens]

On the subject of convenient stats, let's compare RECENT German results at the Euros to the Dutch results:

88: Holland won, Germany lost semi-finals
92: Holland lost semi-finals, Germany lost final
96: Holland lost in quarters, Germany won
2000: Holland lost semi-finals, Germany out in first round
2004: Holland lost semi-finals, Germany out in first round

The most recent results in particular are pretty interesting. Anyway. If these results make Holland a mediocre tournament side, what are your views on Germany? We're talking about the Euros here, as the thread title implies, so don't give me another long list of Germany's world cup achievements, as they're irrelevant to the subject at hand.

[Cirdan]

Well, if anything, Germany 2000 & 2004 proved that a good success rate in the past doesn't count for anything ;)

[johan neeskens]

Well, if anything, Germany 2000 & 2004 proved that a good success rate in the past doesn't count for anything ;)

Are you a stockbroker?

[Cris 09]

Well, we aren't talking about Germany, are we? I don't care what Germany have done in the past and I never mentioned what they have or haven’t accomplished to begin with. I never brought them up. It was you who brought up Holland’s great record into making it to the 2nd round every time they competed internationally, which as we found out, was a wrong statement to begin with.

So, I just brought the big picture into perspective, and it doesn’t really favor Holland as well as you think. I think that point has been made clear.

If you want my views on Germany, then we can go ahead and discuss them separately. Or we can do it now. I think they have been crap since Euro 96 in both Euros and World Cups (despite an extremely lucky surprise 2002 final) all the way up to WC 2006. Happy?

The reason why I even brought up World Cups to begin with is because you initially stated, “I was referring to APPEARANCES in international tournaments.” But, if you want to stick to the Euros, ok. Holland have been mediocre and as of late, Germany have sucked!


On the subject of convenient stats, let's compare RECENT German results at the Euros to the Dutch results:

88: Holland won, Germany lost semi-finals
92: Holland lost semi-finals, Germany lost final
96: Holland lost in quarters, Germany won
2000: Holland lost semi-finals, Germany out in first round
2004: Holland lost semi-finals, Germany out in first round

The most recent results in particular are pretty interesting. Anyway. If these results make Holland a mediocre tournament side, what are your views on Germany? We're talking about the Euros here, as the thread title implies, so don't give me another long list of Germany's world cup achievements, as they're irrelevant to the subject at hand.

[johan neeskens]

Well, we aren't talking about Germany, are we? I don't care what Germany have done in the past and I never mentioned what they have or haven’t accomplished to begin with. I never brought them up. It was you who brought up Holland’s great record into making it to the 2nd round every time they competed internationally, which as we found out, was a wrong statement to begin with.

So, I just brought the big picture into perspective, and it doesn’t really favor Holland as well as you think. I think that point has been made clear.

If you want my views on Germany, then we can go ahead and discuss them separately. Or we can do it now. I think they have been crap since Euro 96 in both Euros and World Cups (despite an extremely lucky surprise 2002 final) all the way up to WC 2006. Happy?

The reason why I even brought up World Cups to begin with is because you initially stated, “I was referring to APPEARANCES in international tournaments.” But, if you want to stick to the Euros, ok. Holland have been mediocre and as of late, Germany have sucked!

OK, so Germany aside, who in your view has done better than the Netherlands at the European championships over the past two decades? Because for you to call us a mediocre tournament side, I assume you believe there to be a fairly large number of other countries that have done better than us, surely?

[johan neeskens]

Just to elaborate a bit: out of the five most recent European championships, the Netherlands won one, reached the semis three times, and reached the quarters once. This is mediocre in your view. So who do you consider a good tournament side?

[Cris 09]

OK, so Germany aside, who in your view has done better than the Netherlands at the European championships over the past two decades? Because for you to call us a mediocre tournament side, I assume you believe there to be a fairly large number of other countries that have done better than us, surely?

Perhaps it was unfair of me to say, “Mediocre tourney side”. I meant mediocre overall due to their lack of qualifying to so many tournaments.

Anyway, a look at the teams with better record than Holland in the Euros.

Team----Titles----Runners-up---Third-place---Semi-finalists---Fourth-place
Germany 3 (1972, 1980, 1996) 2 (1976, 1992) - 1 (1988) -
France 2 (1984, 2000) - - 1 (1996) 1 (1960)
Russia/ USSR 1 (1960) 3 (1964, 1972, 1988) - - 1 (1968)
Czech Republic 1 (1976) 1 (1996) 2 (1960, 1980) 1 (2004)
Italy 1 (1968) 1 (2000) - 1 (1988) 1 (1980)
Spain 1 (1964) 1 (1984) - - -
Netherlands 1 (1988) - 1 (1976) 3 (1992, 2000, 2004) -
Denmark 1 (1992) - - 1 (1984) 1 (1964)
Greece 1 (2004) - - - -

[johan neeskens]

Perhaps it was unfair of me to say, “Mediocre tourney side”. I meant mediocre overall due to their lack of qualifying to so many tournaments.

Anyway, a look at the teams with better record than Holland in the Euros.

Team----Titles----Runners-up---Third-place---Semi-finalists---Fourth-place
Germany 3 (1972, 1980, 1996) 2 (1976, 1992) - 1 (1988) -
France 2 (1984, 2000) - - 1 (1996) 1 (1960)
Russia/ USSR 1 (1960) 3 (1964, 1972, 1988) - - 1 (1968)
Czech Republic 1 (1976) 1 (1996) 2 (1960, 1980) 1 (2004)
Italy 1 (1968) 1 (2000) - 1 (1988) 1 (1980)
Spain 1 (1964) 1 (1984) - - -
Netherlands 1 (1988) - 1 (1976) 3 (1992, 2000, 2004) -
Denmark 1 (1992) - - 1 (1984) 1 (1964)
Greece 1 (2004) - - - -

We're talking about the five most recent tournaments. And again I can't see anyone that's been more successful than the Netherlands at the Euros over the past 20 years; throughout the history of the European championships, we're the second best performing country overall, after Germany, did you know that? 'The Dutch always implode at tournaments' is one of the biggest myths in international football today.

You're welcome to slag off Dutch football, god knows I've been doing plenty of that myself of late, but fact is that at the Euros, they have exceeded expectations rather than underperformed. Why they can't do the same at the world cup I don't know.

[Cris 09]

We're talking about the five most recent tournaments.

No we aren’t. YOU ARE!! How all the other Euros now seem irrelevant is beside me. Why is it you are only counting from the time the Netherlands did anything worthwhile? History did not begin the day you were born.

This is comparable to a Greek saying that Greece is the most successful football team in the Euro Cup history – dating way back to 2004! Sorry, it does not work that way!


And again I can't see anyone that's been more successful than the Netherlands at the Euros over the past 20 years; throughout the history of the European championships, we're the second best performing country overall, after Germany, did you know that? 'The Dutch always implode at tournaments' is one of the biggest myths in international football today.

Once again, if want to look at success from a historic stand point, France, the Russians, Italy, Spain and the Czechs all have better records than Holland. I think making it to the finals twice is a better record than making it out of the 1st round six times!!

You're welcome to slag off Dutch football, god knows I've been doing plenty of that myself of late, but fact is that at the Euros, they have exceeded expectations rather than underperformed. Why they can't do the same at the world cup I don't know.

I am by no means slagging of Dutch football. I am slagging your post!!

Now go to bed!!!

[johan neeskens]

So I'm an idiot for thinking recent results are more relevant than results from the 1930s. Whereas you're right by labelling a country with the second best track record in the history of the European championships as a mediocre tournament side. Yes, let's go with that, you're right, I'm wrong.

[BocaFan]

Looking at the four pots, it looks like the group of death will be whatever group France winds-up in.

It's not Holland that everyone is afraid of drawing, but rather France!

[Cris 09]

So I'm an idiot for thinking recent results are more relevant than results from the 1930s. Whereas you're right by labelling a country with the second best track record in the history of the European championships as a mediocre tournament side. Yes, let's go with that, you're right, I'm wrong.

Let's just remember how this started. You said;

Are you aware that in the entire history of Dutch football, in all of its appearances in international tournaments, Holland's NEVER failed to get to the second stage? It's literally never happened that we had to go home after failure in the group stages.

So, no. you are not an idiot for thinking "recent results are more relevant than results from the 1930s." You are an idiot for forgetting what you said the day before!!

[johan neeskens]

Let's just remember how this started. You said;

Are you aware that in the entire history of Dutch football, in all of its appearances in international tournaments, Holland's NEVER failed to get to the second stage? It's literally never happened that we had to go home after failure in the group stages.

So, no. you are not an idiot for thinking "recent results are more relevant than results from the 1930s." You are an idiot for forgetting what you said the day before!!

I admitted to my earlier mistake. That does nothing to diminish my argument though, i.e. that Holland is NOT a mediocre tournament side, as you suggested. I don't know why people like you like to think that we do badly at tournaments, I guess it's one of them comfort zones people love to be in.

[johan neeskens]

Looking at the four pots, it looks like the group of death will be whatever group France winds-up in.

It's not Holland that everyone is afraid of drawing, but rather France!

Hehehe another member of the 'we don't rate Holland' brigade. What fun.

[Lusankya]

Of course its either Holland OR France. Worst case is both teams in one group. I hope that won't happen.

[Cris 09]

Hehehe another member of the 'we don't rate Holland' brigade. What fun.


I think this membership is much bigger than you would like to think. Certainly bigger than your "Army of One" club.

But, I do rate Holland. And I do respect them as a team. The truth is, this has more to do with you over-rating Holland than me putting them down.

As I said, I have no problem accepting Holland's place in football history as a historically rich team that has had many great accomplishments, has a bright future and a past with great players.

My problem is your ridiculous post!!!