Charlton - a colossus with no swagger

[TomClare]

Wdwards was a kind of mentor for Bobby, especially when he went into the Army to do his National Service and they were stationed together in Shropshire.

[jammybastard]

Yeah, I'm about 3/4 through myself. Best and Law on the scene.

He does spend a chapter sorting out his problem with his brother. It comes down to the fact that Jack said some unkind things about Bobby's wife in his autobiography and in the press. Jack blamed Bobby's wife for driving a wedge between Bobby and their mum as well as the rest of the family.
Bobby felt it was bang out of order for Jack to air this publically, and held it against him for a number of years.
He also says that they are mostly beyond it now, but that they are still brothers and will always be prone to disagreement.

[sdotsom]

Yup, I just finished that chapter up myself. It's been a great read so far - I'm excited about the upcoming portions, including the 63 Cup and then Wembley.

[TomClare]

Regarding the positions Bobby Charlton played in:

At United, he had moved from outside left to a central midfield position after the loss of Duncan Edwards, a position which much more suited his nature than that of outside left.

One of the greatest footballers ever and arguably the most underrated of all all-time greats.

When Charlton came to Manchester United he was an inside forward - on either side. He got into the team in 1957 as the inside right, and even after the crash, for two and a half seasons he played at inside left.

Busby moved him to the left wing after he had sold Albert Scanlon, and he did so to try and protect him more as Charlton was becoming a target for the "cloggers" in the game.

I would never say that Charlton was underrated - he was, and always will be, one of the "all time greats."

[sdotsom]

It's interesting to read Charlton's take on playing out wide. He had the confidence and the skill to play there, no doubt, but he definitely sounds like he felt restricted there, understandably.

One of the best parts about Charlton's book is that it fleshes out the character of Jimmy Murphy, someone who I'd only heard a little about. This man was almost as important to the Babes as Sir Matt.

[TomClare]

It's interesting to read Charlton's take on playing out wide. He had the confidence and the skill to play there, no doubt, but he definitely sounds like he felt restricted there, understandably.

One of the best parts about Charlton's book is that it fleshes out the character of Jimmy Murphy, someone who I'd only heard a little about. This man was almost as important to the Babes as Sir Matt.

Sad really as Jimmy tends to get so overlooked these days in United's history - yet as you say - he was just as important as Sir Matt. It was Jimmy that spent the time on the training ground with them and it was Jimmy who looked after the youth team. He was like a father figure to them and so important to their development. Jimmy could frighten the life out of you with his bark, but he was a terrific man. Bobby when he was young, had a a habit of always playing long balls from the middle of the park out to wide right or left. It looked really good to watch, but Jimmy got hold of him and told him that he had to pick and choose when that tactic was right for the team. he told him; "Bobby son, you have to master playing at the Rialto before you can play the Paladium." What he was in effect saying was that you have to master the short game first - and he coached Bobby into doing just that.

Jimmy retired when Sir Matt called it a day, but stayed on as a scout for United. He didn't drive, so when ever he was watching games, he would go by train or take a taxi if it was local. In 1979 when Martin Edwards became Chairman, he personally stopped Jimmy's travelling expenses especially the claims for reimbursement for taxi fares. Jimmy left and didn't set foot inside Old Trafford again. Such shambolic treatment of a man who gave so much to Manchester United and never more so than immediately after the Munich disaster. Several clubs tried to lure him away from United, the most persistent being Arsenal who tried all sorts of enticing offers but Jimmy always stayed loyal and said no.

There is a story that abounds that he and Sir Matt fell out but that isn't true at all. They just both grew old and and life took them down a different path which took them apart. There was never any animosity between them.

If you wish to read about Jimmy, a lovely guy by the name of Brian Hughes wrote a book on his life entitled; "Star Maker" and then there is Jimmy's own book "Matt, United, and Me" both of which can be found Amazon.co.uk

[israbeckham]

Everytime I read something about the Munich disaster and the players who died, I feel something (phisically) like shivering or something. I'v never even seen anything beyond a few clips of them, but I still feel terrible.

Same goes to Best. Im about midway through his autobiography now, and its just pissing me off how he retired from 'real football' (united) when he was only 27. People say that he robbed football of his best years, but its so much more then that. It would be the equivilent of Roandlo becoming an alcoholic and retiring in his prime... Geroge keeps on saying he wished Busby would have set him stright, but Busby wasa the one who always got him out of punishment and always let him get away with whatever he wanted. It really ended up being the worst thing he could have done.

[sdotsom]

Busby was always "soft"-er towards Best than the rest of the players. Charlton mentions that a bit in his book. I.e., if Best came in a little late for training, he'd be able to stay around after to make it up, no harm done. It's hard not to think that the extra attention Georgie got from Sir Matt may have spoiled him a bit. The bulk of the blame has to rest with the player though. He's the one that ruined his own career.

One of the sadder things in the Charlton book is when he discusses the last trip he took to see Best in the hospital, right before he passed. Charlton went down with Denis Law, and The Big Three were united one last time.

[israbeckham]

Ya and when the new coach took over and best just ditched training or went off on a date instead of going to a game, the new coach suspended and put him on the transfer list, but Busby intervened and just fined him 50 pounds and got him off the transfer list.

Im sure you all know Iv been learning a lot of the history of this club latley:p, but I remember a few years ago when Best died my uncle told me about it and I just said "Oh". I herd the name before but thats about it (keep in mind I was really young) but if this happened today Im sure I would cry.

[sdotsom]

TomClare, maybe you could enlighten me on something a bit. I've always wondered what the fans thought about Sir Matt's "role" with the club in the years after he retired. Older heads I've spoken to thought that Sir Matt ran Wilf McGuiness and Frank O'Farrell out of the club - something which I don't know enough about to comment on. I did see a documentary on ITV where they had interviewed some 20 year olds in the years surrounding the relegation - they said that they had nothing but respect for Sir Matt, but that he should have no influence on things.

What was your take on it?

[TomClare]

Sir Matt never interfered at all. I've talked to Wilf McGuinness about his period in the Manager's seat immediately after Sir Matt had retired, and he confirmed that. The problem was that Wilf was a little young to be honest - just 31. he was trying to handle people like Best, Law, Charlton, Crerand, Stepney, Dunne, Kidd, Morgan, etc - players who just weeks before his appointment had been very close friends - most of them he'd grown up with. Make no bones about it, Wilf was a good coach (don't forget, he was an assistant coach in Alf Ramsay's set up when England won the World Cup) but if he had a problem, his man management skills weren't as they should have been when he moved into Sir Matt's chair. If you look back at his 18 months in charge, he wasn't the failure some people make him out to be. United went to three semi-finals in his time, and were a tad unlucky. But things deteriorated and he lost the confidence of the players - Wilf's words not mine - and of course he lost the job. It gutted him - he'd been at United since he was a 15 year old - almost 20 years and that's why he went abroad.

O'Farrell was his own worst enemy. When I went to North End as a young kid, he was still playing and was Club captain. He was an aloof kind of guy, but always came across on the arrogant side. He arrived at Old Trafford and the team instantly seemed to click and went on a run that took them to the top of the league and 4 points clear by Christmas. However, things began to come unglued and he was out of his depth in trying to come to terms with the situation. The thing with Best he only exacerbated and made matters worse and totally mis-managed the whole affair. Players like Law, Charlton, and Crerand were coming to the end of their careers and they were huge to replace. But again, he was another who lost the confidence of the dressing room and he paid the price. As Dennis Law said; "Frank O'Farrell? He came as a stranger and left as a stranger - we never ever got to know him".

Sir Matt didn't interfere at all.

[TomClare]

[QUOTE=israbeckham;13350600]Ya and when the new coach took over and best just ditched training or went off on a date instead of going to a game, the new coach suspended and put him on the transfer list, but Busby intervened and just fined him 50 pounds and got him off the transfer list.

QUOTE]

That young man, is definitely untrue.

[israbeckham]

TomClare, maybe you could enlighten me on something a bit. I've always wondered what the fans thought about Sir Matt's "role" with the club in the years after he retired. Older heads I've spoken to thought that Sir Matt ran Wilf McGuiness and Frank O'Farrell out of the club - something which I don't know enough about to comment on. I did see a documentary on ITV where they had interviewed some 20 year olds in the years surrounding the relegation - they said that they had nothing but respect for Sir Matt, but that he should have no influence on things.

What was your take on it?

It was very hard for United to find a new manager with Sir Matt still at the club because anyone who would have come in would automatically be compared to him, much like Fergie today. Matt indeed drove Wilf and O'Farrell out of the club because although he wasn't the coach, he was general manager and flat out over ruled them on many decisions. Wilf was too inexperienced and couldn't really control the dressing room at 32, when a lot of his players were older then him.

O'Farrel was sacked when they lost 5-0 and he just wasnt getting the results with the kind of players he had.

A perfect example of Sir Matt overruling O'Farrel was when Best (like have have mentioned) was put on the transfer list, and Best talked to Matt behind his back and was off the list. Just basic things like that...

I am sure Tom can expend more:)

[TomClare]

It was very hard for United to find a new manager with Sir Matt still at the club because anyone who would have come in would automatically be compared to him, much like Fergie today. Matt indeed drove Wilf and O'Farrell out of the club because although he wasn't the coach, he was general manager and flat out over ruled them on many decisions. Wilf was too inexperienced and couldn't really control the dressing room at 32, when a lot of his players were older then him.

O'Farrel was sacked when they lost 5-0 and he just wasnt getting the results with the kind of players he had.

A perfect example of Sir Matt overruling O'Farrel was when Best (like have have mentioned) was put on the transfer list, and Best talked to Matt behind his back and was off the list. Just basic things like that...

I am sure Tom can expend more:)

I don't know where you get this rubbish from, but what you are saying is blatantly untrue.

Wilf McGuinness has told me personally that there was never any interference from Sir Matt in any way whatsoever. He was inexperienced as a manager, but not as coach. There wasn't a player on the roster who was older than Wilf so you are quite wrong to say that there was. There is a big difference in being a Manager (which to all intents and purposes Wilf was) than just being a coach.

The term "General Manager" was a misnomer and there wasn't even a job if the truth is known. Sir Matt never interfered at all with anything or any decisions that O'Farrell made. After his retirement, Sir matt would go down to the ground once or twice a week just to collect his mail - he wasn't even around the place that much at all. O'Farrell's undoing was self inflicted. I have talked personally to Alex Stepney and Paddy Crerand about O'Farrell's time, and they have reiterated what I have said - he was far too distant and aloof in dealing with not only the star players, but others as well and when it came down to the truth, managing a club the size of Manchester United was just too big a task for him - he couldn't handle it. Plain and simple.

[BusbyBabes]

Out of interest I thought I would give the stats of Jackie Charlton's career. Although Jack was a defender and Bobbie an attacker it is still interesting to look at even if he played all his football at Leeds.

Jack Charlton Leeds United 01/05/1953 to 16/05/1973 Career Statistics

League FA CUP [ U]League Cup[/u] European

Season Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals

1952-1953 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

1954-1955 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

1955-1956 34 0 1 0 0 0 0 0

1956-1957 21 0 1 0 0 0 0 0

1957-1958 40 0 1 0 0 0 0 0

1958-1959 39 1 1 0 0 0 0 0

1959-1960 41 3 1 0 0 0 0 0

1960-1961 41 7 1 0 4 1 0 0

1961-1962 34 9 2 1 3 2 0 0

1962-1963 38 2 3 1 1 1 0 0

1963-1964 25 3 0 0 2 0 0 0

1964-1965 39 9 8 1 2 0 0 0

1965-1966 40 6 2 0 1 0 11 2

1966-1967 28 5 6 2 4 0 7 0

1967-1968 34 5 4 1 5 1 11 1

1968-1969 41 3 2 0 2 0 7 4

1969-1970 32 3 9 1 2 1 7 0

1970-1971 41 6 4 0 1 0 10 3

1971-1972 41 5 5 1 4 0 1 0

1972-1973 18 3 1 0 4 1 2 0

Total 629 70 52 8 35 7 56 10

Total appearances in all competitions for Leeds-773
Goals in all competitions for Leeds-95

England

35 caps in which he scored 6 goals. During the 38 games he played England won 25, drew 8 and lost 2.

[Numquam Moribimur]

I don't know where you get this rubbish from, but what you are saying is blatantly untrue.





:D:D:D

[BusbyBabes]

:D:D:D

Teaches Isra a lesson from taking everything from a book as the authority to the Busby era..always ask TomClaire Isra as he knows everything.

[israbeckham]

Teaches Isra a lesson from taking everything from a book as the authority to the Busby era..always ask TomClaire Isra as he knows everything.

I know TomClare knows a lot about that era, much more then me obviously, BUT, I think Geroge Best who lived it would know more then Tom. So here are a few quotes: (All taken from Best's autobiography "Blessed.")





“Taking over the first team was a task he was never going to win and one of his problems was that, at 32, he was younger than some of the players he would be picking.”
-Best (Page 166)

“I’m sending him home.” (Wilf talking to Sir Matt.)
Sir Matt stood up for me as usual and told Wilf we’d sort it out when we got back to Manchester. But he should have saved his breath because I had my normal nightmare against Leeds.” (Meaning he played…) –Best (Page 169)

“I don’t suppose I helped his cause by failing to show up to training on Christmas day, deciding to sleep off a hangover. Wilf wanted to send me home, but Busby overruled him again. Instead posing a 50 pound fine. –Best (Page 176)

“Wilf was such a nice man and loved the club so much but he didn’t even ditch the dirt after he left, but the way he was treated by Sir Matt, one could have hardly have blamed him if he had.” (After Wilf was sacked.) –Best (Page 176)

O’Farrell- You went behind my back!” He said to me (Best) in the dressing room.” (This is after Matt has agreed to take George off the transfer list, O’Farrell put him on)
“He must have known the writing on the wall for him when Sir Matt and the board were undermining his decisions, just as they were with Wilf.” –Best (Page210)


Ok so with all do respect to Tom, and I have a lot of respect for him, I think the quotes here prove my point that Sir. Matt WAS undermining Wilf and O'Farrell's decisions, which is partly why the were unsuccessful. Not to mention Best being an alcoholic, Law leaving, Charlton ont he verge of retirement, and the other players simply not good enough.

[TomClare]

I know TomClare knows a lot about that era, much more then me obviously, BUT, I think Geroge Best who lived it would know more then Tom. So here are a few quotes: (All taken from Best's autobiography "Blessed.")





“Taking over the first team was a task he was never going to win and one of his problems was that, at 32, he was younger than some of the players he would be picking.”
-Best (Page 166)

Bobby Charlton was just 12 days older than Wilf - There was not another player, apart from Bobby in that squad older than McGuinness. I'm sure 12 days made a big difference. And if they were older than McGuinness at that time they must have been playing in a Pensioner's league - check your facts!

“I’m sending him home.” (Wilf talking to Sir Matt.)
Sir Matt stood up for me as usual and told Wilf we’d sort it out when we got back to Manchester. But he should have saved his breath because I had my normal nightmare against Leeds.” (Meaning he played…) –Best (Page 169)

George being economical with the truth again

“I don’t suppose I helped his cause by failing to show up to training on Christmas day, deciding to sleep off a hangover. Wilf wanted to send me home, but Busby overruled him again. Instead posing a 50 pound fine. –Best (Page 176)

Again - George's supposed version - without refering to stats was this the Christmas day before the match at derby on Boxing Day 1969 that ended 4-4?

“Wilf was such a nice man and loved the club so much but he didn’t even ditch the dirt after he left, but the way he was treated by Sir Matt, one could have hardly have blamed him if he had.” (After Wilf was sacked.) –Best (Page 176)

That is George's opinion - It's not how Wilf tells it - nor many of the other players who were there at that time.

O’Farrell- You went behind my back!” He said to me (Best) in the dressing room.” (This is after Matt has agreed to take George off the transfer list, O’Farrell put him on)
“He must have known the writing on the wall for him when Sir Matt and the board were undermining his decisions, just as they were with Wilf.” –Best (Page210)

Again that's George's version and opinion - other version's tell it far differently


Ok so with all do respect to Tom, and I have a lot of respect for him, I think the quotes here prove my point that Sir. Matt WAS undermining Wilf and O'Farrell's decisions, which is partly why the were unsuccessful. Not to mention Best being an alcoholic, Law leaving, Charlton ont he verge of retirement, and the other players simply not good enough.

They reached 3 semi - finals during Wilf's reign, with a team that had been handed over to him that had grown old and were in decline. The players at the club at that time coming through were just not good enough. That was the real reason why they were unsuccessful and it manifested itself even more after Wilf had departed and Frank O'Farrell had taken over! One of the root problems was in the centre of defence where United never really replaced Bill Foulkes and they suffered for it - Ure, James, Sadler never really filled that position with authority.

I have the same book - do I believe everything George says in it? - no I don't - as much as I loved the fellow. George could be more than economical with the truth at times. Now I have TALKED to Wilf personally about Sir Matt's involvement and he told me quite categorically that there was no interference at all. That is more than good enough for me. Don't believe everything that you read in player's books - especially those that are "ghosted" for them.

Paddy Crerand's recent book is a great read - BUT - there are certain parts of it that have more than a little exaggeration in it.

There are so many books about George and if you read them all, you'll find that there are lots and lots of contradictions.

I also think that somewhere on this board there is a link to the speech that Wilf made at my yearly dinner in 2006 where he actually states that there was no involvement from Matt.

Those quotes don't prove anything at all.

[israbeckham]

I don't know what to tell you. You are much more qualified to talk about this then me, but I still believe that there has to be some truth to what Besty is saying. Perhaps he is exadurating a bit, but I don't think he would have pure lies in is book...