playing up in a tournament

[AABestor]

hello all, I have a hypothetical situation for you.
where I live we have various divisions of competitive soccer.
In order of best to worst
premier1
premier2
classic 2 divisions but both are equal
chal1
chal2

If you had a team U11-13s who had just moved up a divsion say chal 1 to classic. didn't exactly dominate but were in the top five teams. Would it be a good idea to play them in a premier divison for a tournament. or even a chal1 team playing in classic?

on one side It could be a learning experience as far as speed of play and tactics.
But on the other side they would probably not be very competitive in the games.

This has happened before (not purposely) my team was placed into a better divison and it was a learning experience. I did see an improvement in the level of play by the end of it. Though most games were 9-0, 4-1, 7-1,.

[goru_no_ura]

First point: playing up is not much fun for players and parents. You need a really understanding team to afford it without consequences.
Players usually aren't happy to enter games they know they'll probably lose, let alone an entire league/tournie...

Second point: Does it really help to improve? When you as a player have less time and space, everything gets harder. For those who can keep up, it might help to face toughest challenges; however, for most players it translates into a frustrating experience, where they can rarely show on the field what they have allegedly practiced. In particular, forwards are erased by bigger defenders and tend to disappear from the game (or from the league/tournament).

The above is based on direct experience.

My son's team last season was 4th in the U9 league. Their coach decided to play U10 in the second half of the season, and it was horrible. I remember a weekend when we lost two games 9-0, without ever passing the midfield. True, some player got tougher, but that was it.

We then entered the State Cup back at the U9 level, ready to wipe out the other teams, and... we could not really play socecr, after all the abshing up at U10. We got eliminated at the first round.

In conclusion: a total failure.

My son has now been picked by the best club in the State, they play in their league and they dominate it (U10, now) AND they play also in the U11/U12 league. They are holdng on well, even when they're inferior physically (won 5 out of 5).

Ergo, if you have a clearly superior team it might be ok to play up.

I understand you talk about leagues, while my discussion is basically about age groups, but I believe the logic is the same.

If you do play up, brace yourself, and all the best.

[Val1]

I played up as a player and loved the thrill and prestige of knowing that I was playing up, but I actually liked all the PT I got when I moved back to my age group.

But as far as teams go, MUCH better that they stay at an appropriate talent level. Kids need to possess and control the ball and to dominate possession, not scramble with the ball. Increase the comfort level of your kids when they are on the ball and ultimately they'll be happier. I agree pretty much goru.

[BigGuy]

hello all, I have a hypothetical situation for you.
where I live we have various divisions of competitive soccer.
In order of best to worst
premier1
premier2
classic 2 divisions but both are equal
chal1
chal2

If you had a team U11-13s who had just moved up a divsion say chal 1 to classic. didn't exactly dominate but were in the top five teams. Would it be a good idea to play them in a premier divison for a tournament. or even a chal1 team playing in classic?

on one side It could be a learning experience as far as speed of play and tactics.
But on the other side they would probably not be very competitive in the games.

This has happened before (not purposely) my team was placed into a better divison and it was a learning experience. I did see an improvement in the level of play by the end of it. Though most games were 9-0, 4-1, 7-1,.

Play that far up in a tournament you will go three and out and the games won't be close. Mess up that division also.

Team beat you bad 8-0. The other teams have to try and do the same because of goal differential. Sportmenship goes out the window.

Be smart match them up at a competitive level. Better that way.

[Kevin8833]

If you aren't good enough to beat decent teams the last thing you should do is try to get better by playing better teams, play lesser teams to get more confidence, time and comfort on the ball and as a team.

[uniteo]

If you aren't good enough to beat decent teams the last thing you should do is try to get better by playing better teams, play lesser teams to get more confidence, time and comfort on the ball and as a team.

I disagree very much.

Kids CAN learn a lot by playing up. the important factor, I think, in making that decision is knowing the mindset of your team and how they'll react. Definitely need the team to understand that it's going to be a challenge, that they are gonna be in for a shock, and may get beat very badly...and when it happens they'll need to respond posititvely. If they do this they'll notice improvement from game to game. If they get frustrated easily they may very well tank.

I would suggest that it would probably be a better choice for before a season than after, just because you want to end the season on a high note if you can. So if you do a postseason tournament playing up, you may want to enter another afterwards where you play back down (which will seem even easier)..

[BigGuy]

I disagree very much.

Kids CAN learn a lot by playing up. the important factor, I think, in making that decision is knowing the mindset of your team and how they'll react. Definitely need the team to understand that it's going to be a challenge, that they are gonna be in for a shock, and may get beat very badly...and when it happens they'll need to respond posititvely. If they do this they'll notice improvement from game to game. If they get frustrated easily they may very well tank.

I would suggest that it would probably be a better choice for before a season than after, just because you want to end the season on a high note if you can. So if you do a postseason tournament playing up, you may want to enter another afterwards where you play back down (which will seem even easier)..

There is an art to picking the right division to play in concerning tournaments.

Playing against weaker teams as a confidence builder I agree is not a good idea.

But playing against teams to far up in class is an equalilly bad idea.

Have to know your team and have to know the competition.

[ranova]

As an adult I have played a couple of very mismatched friendlies. One I remember that we had possession only about 10% of the time. We spent almost the entire game defending in our third. We (an adult recreational team) actually enjoyed it because we put up a good defense against a much, much better competitive team from one of the better adult premier leagues in the area. We weren't kids trying to develop our skills. We didn't realize what our manager had got us into until we saw the our opponents take the field before the match! Bottom line, you want matches to be challenging yes, but if you are too overmatched all you get to practice is defending in your own end, which should not be high on the list of objectives for your age range. I have to agree with the idea that a player playing up is not the same as a team playinng up. And a team playing up in a friendly is different than playing up in a competition.

[goru_no_ura]

Playing against weaker teams as a confidence builder I agree is not a good idea.


Mhhh. I did it last spring, after the team I picked up had lost 16 out of 18 in their League.

Team overall improved a lot.

I would strongly suggest it for a team that has been losing too much, but of course it should be only a phase.

The best games usually are those with teams of the same level, IMHO.
The WHOLE team should work a lot, and everybody learns.

[BigGuy]

Mhhh. I did it last spring, after the team I picked up had lost 16 out of 18 in their League.

Team overall improved a lot.

I would strongly suggest it for a team that has been losing too much, but of course it should be only a phase.

The best games usually are those with teams of the same level, IMHO.
The WHOLE team should work a lot, and everybody learns.

They lost 16 out of 18? Play in a lower division in your league. If there is no lower division play in a different league.

If that is not posssible they should replace you as a coach. You are not helping those players.

[goru_no_ura]

They lost 16 out of 18? Play in a lower division in your league. If there is no lower division play in a different league.

If that is not posssible they should replace you as a coach. You are not helping those players.

Read well, Big Guy. :rolleyes:

They had lost 16 out of 18 <<BEFORE I PICKED THEM UP.>>

Now, perhaps also because of my deadly 2-hours practices and me giving directions during the game, we're 4 won - 1 tied - 0 lost this season.

There is one league and two divisions here. They were in the bottom one. Now we're in the top one.

The point is simple: some kids were simply not motivated (read: plain lazy); and now they're not that way anymore.

[rca2]

Goru, that is what you intended, but not what you wrote. Congratulations on the 4 wins, but imo the measure of success for youth soccer is found in the development of the players, and not found in the results. So if you had attributed their success to their improvement as a player instead of to yourself, I would have been more impressed. I am trying to get you to rethink your approach to coaching here. From what you have said, you have the skill and knowledge. I am just suggesting a change in focus.

[goru_no_ura]

Goru, that is what you intended, but not what you wrote. Congratulations on the 4 wins, but imo the measure of success for youth soccer is found in the development of the players, and not found in the results.

From the way most people sees junior soccer in the US, it almost seems as the two things (development/fun vs winning) exclude each other...
Why can't a team that develops and play well also win many games? Where is the problem...? :confused:

So if you had attributed their success to their improvement as a player instead of to yourself, I would have been more impressed. I am trying to get you to rethink your approach to coaching here. From what you have said, you have the skill and knowledge. I am just suggesting a change in focus.

I am just a coach, thus a facilitator. My task is to get the best out of the players, which I think I do well (...in most cases--I do register my failures, at times).

Of course the good results belong to the kids, and to them only. Is it them who decide how much effort they want to play in their game. I can only invite them.

Now, perhaps we should return to the topic... playing up & down... :)

[uniteo]

Goru, that is what you intended, but not what you wrote. Congratulations on the 4 wins, but imo the measure of success for youth soccer is found in the development of the players, and not found in the results.

yeah but there has to be some positive feedback from that development and kids expect that the results will do that some extent...they know when they're getting better, but when they get better and lose it is frustrating...a reasonable reaction in my opinion.

[rca2]

I believe frustration over a loss to be a learned response.

[uniteo]

I believe frustration over a loss to be a learned response.

well fine, but we live in a society that values success and winning, they don't learn to be frustrated with a loss because they play soccer, if anything they learn that you can do well and still lose, but the frustration will be there and pretending it won't or responding by talking about how it shouldn't matter is just sticking your head in the sand.

[ranova]

well fine, but we live in a society that values success and winning, they don't learn to be frustrated with a loss because they play soccer, if anything they learn that you can do well and still lose, but the frustration will be there and pretending it won't or responding by talking about how it shouldn't matter is just sticking your head in the sand.

Here we are in complete disagreement. IMO learning to deal with setbacks in a positive manner is one of the best lessons one can learn from sports. If you give your best effort, there should be satisfaction, not frustration, regardless of result. Passion yes. Frustration no. Feedback from parents and coaches can have a great influence on a player's emotional satisfaction. I cannot remember who to attribute this to (I think I read it in Mia Ham's book), or the exact quote, but I like this: A champion is not someone who never loses; a champion is someone who never quits trying to improve in the face of repeated losses. In other words in becoming champions, the champions actually have lost more often than others who have quit trying. You have only been defeated when you quit trying. This is my culture and what I try to pass on.