Main German clubs ?

[juan77]

Hi, pease, can you tell me the main historical german clubs ?

For example i know in Italy they are Milan, Inter, Juventus, Roma and in Spain Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico

Thanks, Juan

[sportfriend]

SC Freiburg, Wolfsburg, Mainz....

that's a joke!

the biggest team is Bayern

and in no order...Gladbach, Schalke, Dortmund, Bremen?

[russ99]

SC Freiburg, Wolfsburg, Mainz....

that's a joke!

the biggest team is Bayern

and in no order...Gladbach, Schalke, Dortmund, Bremen?

Despite the last few years, I'd definitely put Frankfurt in instead of Bremen and HSV (Hamburg) too. Otherwise, spot on.

[Alex_K]

Bayern, Nürnberg, Schalke, HSV, Lautern, Gladbach. Maybe Dortmund and Köln.

[Schwalker]

Hi, pease, can you tell me the main historical german clubs ?

For example i know in Italy they are Milan, Inter, Juventus, Roma and in Spain Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico

Thanks, Juan



Historical as in having a great history or just the main clubs?

The four biggest clubs are Bayern, Dortmund, Schalke and Hamburg I guess..that said few can match the history of say Nürnberg.

The German league ain´t as static as in Spain and Italy...We got so many big cities with a potential for having a top team.

[Zak1FCK]

Despite the last few years, I'd definitely put Frankfurt in instead of Bremen and HSV (Hamburg) too. Otherwise, spot on.

Same with Kaiserslautern, especially if you take out the past 3-4 disastrous years.

[Schalkoholic]

As far as Championship and Finals are concerned this:

Before WW1
VfB Leipzig ,Phoenix Karlsruhe,Freiburger FC,BFC Viktoria 1889

After WW1 till WW2
1 Fc Nürnberg ,FC Schalke 04 , Hertha BSC,SpVg Fürth,Dresdner SC

After WW2 till start of the Bundesliga
West Germany:
Stuttgart, Kaiserlautern, Dortmund, Hamburg,Cologne

East Germany
Wismut Karl Marx Stadt (Chemnitz),ASK Vorwärts Berlin

Since start of the Bundesliga till Reunification
West Germany:
Bayern Munchen,Mönchengladbach ,Cologne,Hamburg

East Germany:
Dynamo Berlin, Dynamo Dresden 1.FC Magdeburg,Carl Zeiss Jena

After Reunfication:

Bayern München,Borussia Dortmund,Leverkusen,Werder Bremen,Stuttgart,Schalke 04


This shows the major clubs in the title race.

Before 1903 there were only seperate Championsships
First real German Champion was Vfb Leipzig
From 1945 until 1990 there were no German Champions only Champions
of the western or eastern part of the country.

So we do have the period From 1903 until 1945
and from 1990 until today with clubs who can call themselves real German Champions.

Biggest clubs today as members fanbase infrastructure and so on is concerned
are top down: Bayern Munich,Schalke 04, Hamburger SV,Dortmund

[Alex_K]

From 1945 until 1990 there were no German Champions only Champions
of the western or eastern part of the country.


No. The clubs that won the West German championship are the "real" German champions. Legally and political West Germany was the sole successor of the German Empire, including in football. There were also other German championships organized by rival assocciations before WWII, btw.

By the same logic there wouldn't be a real German championship today either, because clubs from Eastern Prussia don't take part anymore.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Despite the last few years, I'd definitely put Frankfurt in instead of Bremen and HSV (Hamburg) too. Otherwise, spot on.

I agree with you, that Frankfurt needs to be put in, but i can´t understand, why you
want to put Bremen and Hamburg out. Don´t you like the North? ;)

Man, both big clubs from the North weren´t only sucessfull in the last few years,
the "eternal tabel" proves that. I can understand, if you argue, that the sucesses were won
under only 3 coaches, but we were always except one season (1980/81) in BL and
Hamburg is the only club, that plays in the BL since it was founded.
Frankfurt won the UEFA-Cup in 1980, has 1 championship (1959) and German 4 cup wins,
while Bremen has a UEFA-CWC-title in 1992, has 4 BL-championship and 6 German cup wins,
Hamburg won the CL (Cup of Champions in 1983, UEFA-CWC in 1977, 3 BL-championships
and 3 championships before 1963 and 3 German cup wins.

So beside Bayern (and the seperate Eastern teams) there are in overall
no more sucessfull teams in Germany than Bremen and Hamburg in the last 40 years.

[Alex_K]

More historical:

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duiplalltotal.html

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

most sucessfull in BL (by won points)
1.Bayern 2761 points
2.Werder 2286
3.Hamburg 2278
4.Stuttgart 2175
5.Dortmund 2047
6.Kaiserslautern (currently in trouble) 2025
7.Gladbach 2024
8.Collogne 1989
9.Schalke 1849
10.Frankfurt 1832
link: collected points in Bundesliga history (http://www.fussballdaten.de/bundesliga/ewigetabelle/)

Schalke and Nürnberg were the most sucessfull clubs before 1963,
when the Bundesliga was founded (at that time there was a play-off system).
Dynamo Dresden and Dynamo Berlin were the most sucessfull clubs
in the Eastern part between 1949 and 1991.

[Alex_K]

Damn, no that you deleted your first all-time table post my "more historical" reply is now above your post :D.

But Bremen doesn't belong, if you ask me. Despite 4 championships, they pretty much were an also ran for the first 80 years or so. HSV, on the other hand, belong onto the list without any doubt.

[Schalkoholic]

No. The clubs that won the West German championship are the "real" German champions. Legally and political West Germany was the sole successor of the German Empire, including in football. There were also other German championships organized by rival assocciations before WWII, btw.

By the same logic there wouldn't be a real German championship today either, because clubs from Eastern Prussia don't take part anymore.


From Cold War point of view you might be right.
Even though both German Republics accepted the Oder/neisse Line.

So Germany after 1945 was and is todays Germany not more and not less
in every way.

and there were rival associations for DFB before 1903 and after 1945 till 1990.
Thats it.

Thats the facts.

Did Braunschweig win a West-German Championsship or why are you complaining and ignoring the facts?:D

[Alex_K]

Thats the facts.



No, they are not and you are ill-informed, but carry on.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Damn, no that you deleted your first all-time table post my "more historical" reply is now above your post :D.


Sorry, i didn´t like the layout. :p


But Bremen doesn't belong, if you ask me. Despite 4 championships, they pretty much were an also ran for the first 80 years or so. HSV, on the other hand, belong onto the list without any doubt.

Maybe you are right, we have no depts and weren´t sucessfull
in the times when Germany was a monarchy and at the Nazi dictatorship. :rolleyes:

[Alex_K]

Maybe you are right, we have no depts and weren´t sucessfull
in the times when Germany was a monarchy and at the Nazi dictatorship. :rolleyes:

Well, word it like you want - but Werder wasn't particulary successful before the 1980s. Before they have pretty much a similar record as Eintracht Braunschweig.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Well, word it like you want -

Ok, the comment wasn´t well formulated, but championships
in non-democratic forms of goverment don´t count for me,
because there the state very often intervenes in sport.

But well, i try to get back to a level of normal discussion. ;)

but Werder wasn't particulary successful before the 1980s. Before they have pretty much a similar record as Eintracht Braunschweig.

Yes, that´s true. Before 1980 we only had 1 championship like Braunschweig.
But it´s not unnormal, that you collect most of your titles within intervals.
M`Gladbach collect all their 5 titles within the 70s, Schalke won 5 between
1934 and 1940 and one more in 1942, Hamburg one their 3 BL titles at the beginning of the 80s.
Dortmund won two championships in a row in 1956 and
1957, 1995 and 1996. Nürnberg had a great time in the 20s,
Lautern and Stuttgart at then start of the 50s.
Even Bayern Munich won only one championship until 1967
(then they start their title collecting in the last 40 years,
dominating the Bundesliga with their finacial power and nearly
won every 2nd championship), in the 50s and early 60s 1860
was the more sucessfull team from Munich, but does this make
Bayern not a main club?

And Hamburg - Why should they be a main club, when even non-main clubs
like Bremen collect more points than them in the history of the Bundesliga?

[nekkibasara]

And Hamburg - Why should they be a main club, when even non-main clubs
like Bremen collect more points than them in the history of the Bundesliga?


I think it all comes down to how you want to define a "main club". The problem, or blessing, of Germany is that there are so many clubs that have had success at one time or another that you can make good arguments for them all.

I'm just glad that we do not have a league that has been dominated by the same 3 to 4 teams for the past 40 years.

[Alex_K]

Well, you just pretty much halfed Real Madrid's trophy collection, which isn't all that bad, I guess.

And it's not just about the number of titles won. It's also about consistency and impact. HSV were a serious title contender for more than half a century. Werder had a good run in the mid to late 80s and early nineties, followed by a decade of absolute mediocrity, and another good run in the mid 2000s. You could argue the same for Mönchengladbach, but on the other hand they had a huge impact on German football and shaped it for more than a decade. The same for Kaiserslautern with their 1950s team. Werder never really had this kind of influence Fritz Walter's FCK or Netzer's Gladbach had. Stuttgart has an almost identical record to Bremen, minus the CWC win mostly.

Edit: It's a reply to "Eisenfuß" Eilts, you probably figured this out already, but I didn't put in a quote ;).

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Edit: It's a reply to "Eisenfuß" Eilts, you probably figured this out already, but I didn't put in a quote ;).

:)

Well, you just pretty much halfed Real Madrid's trophy collection, which isn't all that bad, I guess.

Werder had a good run in the mid to late 80s and early nineties, followed by a decade of absolute mediocrity, and another good run in the mid 2000s.

Yes, but the whole 15 years under Rehagel the club had sucess.

1981/82: 5th
1982/83: 2nd
1983/84: 5th
1984/85: 2nd
1985/86: 2nd
1986/87: 5th
1987/88: champion, UEFA-cup semi-finals
1988/89: 3rd, 1/4 finals Champion cup 0-1 against Milan on aggregate
1989/90: 7th, UEFA-cup semis (kicked out Maradonas Napoli in 1/8 finals)
1990/91: 3rd and cup winner
1991/92: 9th and CWC winner
1992/93: champion
1993/94 8th, cup winner, best of 8 finish in Champions cup
1994/95: 2nd


You could argue the same for Mönchengladbach, but on the other hand they had a huge impact on German football and shaped it for more than a decade. The same for Kaiserslautern with their 1950s team. Werder never really had this kind of influence Fritz Walter's FCK or Netzer's Gladbach had. Stuttgart has an almost identical record to Bremen, minus the CWC win mostly.

So IMO Werder is an all-time top 5 club, but i think i can´t even convince you, even if i would mention players like
Völler or Riedle, Basler, Bode, Eilts or even longer ago Höttges or Schütz,
that became stars in Bremen and did well for the NT.