Mark Lisi . . .

[geordienation]

Now leading the Eastern Conference in assists with 7 (tied with Guevara).

Thanks for getting a lot in the trade for him, Ray.

[Jose L. Couso]

... is a wanker.

[MikeLastort2]

Exactly what did Lisi do while a United player to piss so many people off? I thought he was pretty good, and that he could've become an important player in our midfield. Then Hudson traded him and he's gone on to become an important player for our most hated rival's midfield.

[Jose L. Couso]

Originally posted by MikeLastort2
Exactly what did Lisi do while a United player to piss so many people off? I thought he was pretty good, and that he could've become an important player in our midfield. Then Hudson traded him and he's gone on to become an important player for our most hated rival's midfield.

Nothing that ticked me off while he was here.

The shield kissing incident, was something I did not appreciate, but it was something to keep the Metrostars rivalry going.

But the last game against the Metrostars surely does much more for the rivalry thing.

[MikeLastort2]

Originally posted by Jose L. Couso
Nothing that ticked me off while he was here.

The shield kissing incident, was something I did not appreciate, but it was something to keep the Metrostars rivalry going.

But the last game against the Metrostars surely does much more for the rivalry thing.

Then why the hostility? I don't blame the guy for kissing the shield. He scored against the team (and coach) that decided he wasn't good enough.

IMO, he was a good player who we should've never gotten rid of. What did we get in the trade anyway? Draft picks?

[monster]

Armstrong scored last night too.

[Barbara]

Here's something I don't get to say every day: I completely agree with Lastort.

[Gary Gnu]

Mark Lisi did not deserve to be on our team. I hated him by the time he was traded. He had so much skill but could care less about the team. He was pathetic in my opinion. He did't work hard and cried when things didn't go his way. Not what I am looking for from a second year player.


Now Armstrong I really like, hope he does well.

[GrillMaster]

Lisi was an exciting young player to watch in 2001. In 2002 he became a legend in his own mind -- even with the mutts. It would seem that he's figured out the way to become a professional athlete now. Dunno whether it's scumbag Bradley or some personal epiphany, but he's doing very well on both sides of the ball.

I totally concurred with cutting Lisi. When he kissed the mutt logo it was the kiss of death for him in my world.

He's developed into a fine player. There have been plenty of others who haven't (Jason Moore anyone?).

He was a nice guy with the fans, but did not contribute to the team. Good riddance (when we did it)!

GM

[Matrim55]

To be fair, you didn't just give us Lisi. You gave us a second starter - Ziadie - in that trade as well.

I did some research and it turns out Ray's ancestry actually goes back to the Indians that sold Manhattan island for $24 worth of beads. The Metros will be happy to send you Mike Nugent, a 2008 fourth round draft choice and some yorkshire pudding for Alecko Eskandarian if you're up for it.

[GoDC]

Let me get this straight, when Lisi kissed the Metros shield, he was playing for the Metros right?? Was he supposed to run to the bench and kiss Ray or something?? Get over it people, idiot Ray Hudson traded a young attacking player who has a chance to develop into a very good attacking player. Did you know that when he was on loan, Ben Olsen kissed the Nottingham Forest shield after his first goal?? Is he a scum also??

[geordienation]

Originally posted by GrillMaster
Lisi was an exciting young player to watch in 2001. In 2002 he became a legend in his own mind -- even with the mutts. It would seem that he's figured out the way to become a professional athlete now. Dunno whether it's scumbag Bradley or some personal epiphany, but he's doing very well on both sides of the ball.

I totally concurred with cutting Lisi. When he kissed the mutt logo it was the kiss of death for him in my world.

He's developed into a fine player. There have been plenty of others who haven't (Jason Moore anyone?).

He was a nice guy with the fans, but did not contribute to the team. Good riddance (when we did it)!

GM


Here's the problem: if a player with Lisi's talent (and he was drafted pretty high) is floundering, especially a young pro, then at some point it becomes incumbent on the coaching staff to correct that. It's called "developing your young players," something Messr. Hudson seems to have a hard time with.

If you want to be pissed at Lisi for kissing the shield, that's your problem. If Petke had done the same thing (kissing the United logo on his jersey) after scoring against the Metros, you'd be calling him the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

Lisi contributed a lot as a rookie. Ray took over and his game went in the toilet. He goes to play under Bradley and, suddenly, he's a very good midfielder. I'd say that's pretty much an indictment of Hudson.

[JoeW]

I think there's a little bit of revisionist history going on here.

1. Lisi as a rookie--clearly showed potential. He showed an ability to score (especially last minute stuff), he had vision (rare in an American, let alone a potential #10). But he didn't defend, didn't work hard and wasn't a natural at outside mid.

2. Lisi after that slumped. "Legend in his own mind" is correct. On a team that needed defense to stay in games, he was a liability. He was basically best at a position (A-mid) where DCU had lots of depth. Hudson tried a tactic with him--publicly calling him out--that he tried with Convey and Nelsen. It worked with 2 out of the 3. Convey was called out, benched, came back after a respite and showed he could defend and win balls, started showing for the ball and got moved to the middle of the pitch. Nelsen went from being an okay-central defender, to a benching and then a force on the field who was a team scoring leader while he was healthy. Lisi never responded.

As a coach, while I'm not big on that tactic (challenging someone's manhood publicly), it does work for some players and we've seen the proof with DCU. But it didn't work for Lisi.

3. Lisi is now having an outstanding season (after a very forgetable preseason). Part of what is going on is that Metro has so many defensive holes at the moment, they're having to go forward seriously. They can no longer count on winning 1-0 (like many early season games). They are having to score 2-3 goals to stay in the match. And Lisi is perfect for those kinds of matches--they play to his strengths.

As for the trade, Metro can gloat all they want. Bradley has more to do with the results than anything else. B/c based upon play at the end of last season, the preseason, early season Metro boards saw little or not value to Lisi and Ziadie. Heck--Bradley has Wolyniec playing well! But Ziadie was caught behind Milton Reyes. And while I like Perch, I prefer Namoff (who I think is more versatile). We had a choice to make--Namoff or Ziadie--if we'd kept one, the other would have been gone.

As for trading Lisi, you've got a team 3 years out of the playoffs, can't score and has no outside mids. If you aren't going to trade the big guns (and that was the strategy last year--hope the max salary guys turn it around and shuffle the spear carriers was the strategy), then you trade guys like Lisi who are contributing nothing for guys who at least offer some help at a position you're hurting at (outside mid).

Let's look at it this way: if Lisi and Ziadie had not been traded, would they have made this year's squad? I don't think so. Lisi would have had to beat out Quintanilla (and Eliseo was better second half of last year and in preseason than was Lisi). Ziadie would have had to beat out Reyes and Namoff.

I'm glad to see a lot of good young American talent flourishing. That's the real hope for MLS and the USMNT. DCU has drafted a lot of talented guys the past 3 years and many of them are now playing on other sides. Perhaps a more accurate way to look at it is: how many players chosen by Metro last year and the year before are now playing with other MLS teams? Not many.

[shawn12011]

Originally posted by JoeW
I think there's a little bit of revisionist history going on here.

1. Lisi as a rookie--clearly showed potential. He showed an ability to score (especially last minute stuff), he had vision (rare in an American, let alone a potential #10). But he didn't defend, didn't work hard and wasn't a natural at outside mid.

2. Lisi after that slumped. "Legend in his own mind" is correct. On a team that needed defense to stay in games, he was a liability. He was basically best at a position (A-mid) where DCU had lots of depth. Hudson tried a tactic with him--publicly calling him out--that he tried with Convey and Nelsen. It worked with 2 out of the 3. Convey was called out, benched, came back after a respite and showed he could defend and win balls, started showing for the ball and got moved to the middle of the pitch. Nelsen went from being an okay-central defender, to a benching and then a force on the field who was a team scoring leader while he was healthy. Lisi never responded.

As a coach, while I'm not big on that tactic (challenging someone's manhood publicly), it does work for some players and we've seen the proof with DCU. But it didn't work for Lisi.

3. Lisi is now having an outstanding season (after a very forgetable preseason). Part of what is going on is that Metro has so many defensive holes at the moment, they're having to go forward seriously. They can no longer count on winning 1-0 (like many early season games). They are having to score 2-3 goals to stay in the match. And Lisi is perfect for those kinds of matches--they play to his strengths.

As for the trade, Metro can gloat all they want. Bradley has more to do with the results than anything else. B/c based upon play at the end of last season, the preseason, early season Metro boards saw little or not value to Lisi and Ziadie. Heck--Bradley has Wolyniec playing well! But Ziadie was caught behind Milton Reyes. And while I like Perch, I prefer Namoff (who I think is more versatile). We had a choice to make--Namoff or Ziadie--if we'd kept one, the other would have been gone.

As for trading Lisi, you've got a team 3 years out of the playoffs, can't score and has no outside mids. If you aren't going to trade the big guns (and that was the strategy last year--hope the max salary guys turn it around and shuffle the spear carriers was the strategy), then you trade guys like Lisi who are contributing nothing for guys who at least offer some help at a position you're hurting at (outside mid).

Let's look at it this way: if Lisi and Ziadie had not been traded, would they have made this year's squad? I don't think so. Lisi would have had to beat out Quintanilla (and Eliseo was better second half of last year and in preseason than was Lisi). Ziadie would have had to beat out Reyes and Namoff.

I'm glad to see a lot of good young American talent flourishing. That's the real hope for MLS and the USMNT. DCU has drafted a lot of talented guys the past 3 years and many of them are now playing on other sides. Perhaps a more accurate way to look at it is: how many players chosen by Metro last year and the year before are now playing with other MLS teams? Not many.


Great summation Joe. I can't add anything to it. :) :)

[GoDC]

So Joe you would pick Q2 over Mark Lisi?? Well, you are off the list of potential GMs.

[doctorjim]

Which is dumber -- drafting poorly or drafting well and then trading away your draft picks for nothing?

No matter what mental contortions you go through, the bottom line is that Ray has given away about a dozen good players, including some that could become excellent players.

[McOwen]

yeah Lisi has seven assists... But has anyone stopped to look at how many goals the Metrostars have given up in say their past five games? We went with this high powered offense crap with Rongen and the results were pretty much the same (until we stopped scoring...) then we just LOST 0-3.

Lisi is like a lot other kids to come through DC United. He shows some flashes yet never takes control of his OWN destiny. We do not have time to nurture babies for 3 seasons, we need results now. Players like Olsen and Nelsen spring to mind as REAL young stars who took advantage of their chances.

I still don't regret dumping him or any of the others. The kids we have are as good or better. I will bank on Quaranta, Convey, and Nelsen any day over those we have cast off.

[garretth]

First and foremost, the Metrostars defensive woes have a lot to do with Pope and Jolley both being injuried. How well do you think DC would do if Petke and Brandon went down injuried?

I am curious to why Q2 is thought to be better then Lisi? Other then playing for DC, I can see no reason to think Q2 is better. He also is a defense liability, has not scored or set up goals anywhere near what Lisi has done. I think quite frankly Lisi is outperforming all of the attacking midfielders DC has played this year.

Additionally, Ray made this trade because he doesn't know how to develop players. He traded two potentially very good players for Villegas and Perez. Lets see, neither of them play for us any more so I don't see how "getting rid of" lisi and ziade was a good idea. When we need to "get rid of" Carrol or Warren latter this season to get another vetern hack I am sure that will be another good trade.

[Matrim55]

Originally posted by garretth
When we need to "get rid of" Carrol or Warren latter this season to get another vetern hack I am sure that will be another good trade.
That's a good point. We'll give you Jaime back for those two. Throw in Stokes as well, while you're at it.

On a serious note, you all may want to consider the theory that Lisi was weak defensively; was, as in past-tense. There's a reason Bradley has given Clark so much offensive freedom and has asked nothing of Guevara defensively this season, and it's not because Richie Williams is doing anything unexpected.

[GrillMaster]

Originally posted by garretth
First and foremost, the Metrostars defensive woes have a lot to do with Pope and Jolley both being injuried. That's one of the contributing factors considered when deciding Pope's DC future. You may recall how many of us predicted that Jaime and Eddie would probably miss at least a third of their games. Don't forget that had Pope been healthy, he probably would have been in Confed Cup and on Gold Cup team.
[snip]
Additionally, Ray made this trade because he doesn't know how to develop players.
[snip] Ray's philosophy is probably a better one in the long run, generally speaking. Even The Bruce said, when interviewed during the mutts/revs match, that too many young players are playing too early for his preference and only some, like Clarke, are doing very well.

Q2 showed well in a tough preseason campaign this year. His defense is most assuredly suspect and he will be a former player unless he develops some Chino cojones.

I think Ray is showing a commitment to the colors by having the young 'uns get blooded at A League games. We'll probably see them in August and September, unless they don't show at practice a la Mapp.

ps: I think the normally circumspect GoDC got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. ;)

GM