UnitedMania.com: View From The Mezzanine - Vanney Deal Key

[Cweedchop]

http://www.unitedmania.com/?c_ID=3337&catID=28

[Cweedchop]

Sorry, needs a spot of editing. Very long day at work.

[Th4119]

:eek:

What?! That deal HELPED United?

Where is the emoticon for fainting?!

[ignatz]

I agree completely with Cweedchop's analysis. And after watching Facundo chasing an attacker and getting a red card in yesterday's game against Chivas, any lingering doubts I might have had about the trade were removed.

One question that puzzles me: why hasn't anyone tried Facundo on the wing? He gets in trouble repeatedly, as a defender, by getting too far forward because he's offense-minded. Wing is fine for that. He's skilled and can run all day, a la Josh Gros, and he can defend quite well provided there's someone behind him. What am I missing in this analysis?

[JoeW]

People's support and admiration for Erpen is getting in their way of the evaluation of the trade and Vanney's value. It isn't that Erpen couldn't cut it. Some might argue that. But at the end when we played a 442, he would sometimes be on the wing. And while we can admire Erpen's heart, this deal was less about Erpen than it was about Vanney.

Vanney added organization and improved reading of play and this resulted in better shape and fewer errors and better coverage. He's probably inferior individually as a defender to Erpen. But Vanney puts pressure on Boswell to play better (which he needed to do and when BB plays well, he's a force) and also allows Boswell or McTavish to focus more on their assignments rather than having to take on more responsibility.

Finally, when we have Burch, Vanney and Boswell back there, we have 3 guys with excellent distribution, especially distance. And that totally changes how teams played us from last year (which was: pressure the backline and they'll make errors and it will slow up the distribution). Instead, teams are punished for hitting us with high pressure (b/c players get caught forward and our backline has the ability to deliver balls from distance to our frontline).

[MattMathai]

People's support and admiration for Erpen is getting in their way of the evaluation of the trade and Vanney's value. It isn't that Erpen couldn't cut it. Some might argue that. But at the end when we played a 442, he would sometimes be on the wing. And while we can admire Erpen's heart, this deal was less about Erpen than it was about Vanney.

Vanney added organization and improved reading of play and this resulted in better shape and fewer errors and better coverage. He's probably inferior individually as a defender to Erpen. But Vanney puts pressure on Boswell to play better (which he needed to do and when BB plays well, he's a force) and also allows Boswell or McTavish to focus more on their assignments rather than having to take on more responsibility.

Finally, when we have Burch, Vanney and Boswell back there, we have 3 guys with excellent distribution, especially distance. And that totally changes how teams played us from last year (which was: pressure the backline and they'll make errors and it will slow up the distribution). Instead, teams are punished for hitting us with high pressure (b/c players get caught forward and our backline has the ability to deliver balls from distance to our frontline).

I think you should continue to make these points over and over again. You, and a few others of us, have been saying the same thing for a while, but it seems not to sink in.

There are none so blind as those who will not see...

[Sundevil9]

People's support and admiration for Erpen is getting in their way of the evaluation of the trade and Vanney's value.

The sad thing is that Erpen has received more support and admiration in the 10 weeks since he's been traded than in the roughly two years he spent in a United uniform.

[Cweedchop]

The sad thing is that Erpen has received more support and admiration in the 10 weeks since he's been traded than in the roughly two years he spent in a United uniform.

No kidding.

[JuanMa]

Wow! yet another Erpfu bashing thread disguised as a Vanney thread. :rolleyes:

DCUnited defense looks better now than early in the season, but I do not think it is due to Vanney's great play or leadership. I would credit Burch and McTavish for stepping up to the challenge and Namoff's consistent game in the back too. Boswell and Vanney seem to be our wek points in the back now. But I have confidence Boswell can step it up. Lets not kid ourselves either... our back line still needs lots of work.

As far as I am concerned, we traded young for old. OK speed for slow. Healthy for injury prone. And I believe Vanney is more expensive to boot, isn't he?

Finally, and my apologies for disagreeing on everything... I disagree on the "love" of lately comments. These Erpen bashing discussions go back 2 years. My guess is that this started much earlier, around the same time when Wynalda decided to not like him.

[MattMathai]

As far as I am concerned, we traded young for old. OK speed for slow. Healthy for injury prone. And I believe Vanney is more expensive to boot, isn't he?

All true.

You neglected to mention "inexperienced for experienced", and "error-prone for pretty steady".

But don't let that get in the way of your deification of Erpen. :rolleyes:

[hasselhoff]

As far as I am concerned, we traded young for old. OK speed for slow. Healthy for injury prone. And I believe Vanney is more expensive to boot, isn't he?
Colorado is paying his salary this year, while DC pays Erpen.

[JoeW]

I think what creates problems for people in accurately analyzing this trade is to calculate it player for player. On it's face it looks like we traded one defender or another. We didn't (or only on a very superficial level).

Arguably we traded a better individual player (Erpen) and some speed on the backline for....improved motivation and better play by Boswell, better distribution out of the back by the entire backline, more organization, simpler roles for McTavish and Boswell, and fewer defensive errors. I won't attribute all of the defensive improvement to Vanney. But the point is the entire defense is playing better. We don't lose shape like we did, we stay organized, we read the game better, we have fewer bad give-aways and make more killer passes from the backline plus have a faster transition. It's not that Vanney is doing all of that single-handedly, it's that our defense needed an organizer/additional distributor and Erpen wasn't going to play that role and Boswell wasn't having a season that allowed him to do either effectively at the time. That meant McTavish had to carry more of a role, Namoff couldn't go forward as much, Gros had to be considered as a backline option b/c we needed more bodies back there (we were always scrambling and making bad give-aways). And now we're not. Lots of factors contributed to this. But it's a clear example of the sum of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. We've got one of the best defenses in MLS yet we may not have a single player considered/selected for MLS XL in our defensive group or for any post-season all-star team.

To use a comparision, it's like saying TFKAM swapped one attacking mid (Guevara) for another (Reyna) when in reality the two players have different roles, strengths and contributions.

[ursula]

I think what creates problems for people in accurately analyzing this trade is to calculate it player for player. On it's face it looks like we traded one defender or another. We didn't (or only on a very superficial level)....



Yes, exactly. I love Erpen and I was upset that we traded him. I still am.

At the same time, Vanney has been very good for United.

And at the same time Simms taking over for Carroll has been a big defensive plus.

And at the same time Vanney & McTavish taking over for Boswell has been a defensive plus.

And at the same time Boswell's recent improvement has been a plus.

And at the same time Namoff recovering from injury has been a big plus.

And at the same time the emergence of Burch has been a big plus, not only for his defense but also the offense he generates takes pressure off the defense. (The same can be said of Vanney).

I do think Erpen is missed. Hell, Petke is missed. Same with Prideaux. Nellie has been missed most of all and that gets to the point: We have had a bunch of good defenders going through our team and its mainly been a matter of matching and meshing them to get the best coherent team. Of them all only Nellie stands head and shoulders above the rest and Soehn has done a good job this year in sharpening the defense to get it to the efficient state it is in now. Same with the offense too. Its just important to realize that the trade was not a win/lose or a win/win or a lose/win or a lose/lose trade for United. It was more complicated that that as I now see.

[Malice]

Cweed,

Good article.

I was very negative about this trade at first, but have since changed my mind. I base this off of the fact that since the trade, United's defense has found its form.

I think that Erpfu is more physically gifted then Vanney, but Vanney has made fewer bonehead plays then Facundo. One caveat, Vanney has benefited from the return of Namoff and Burch's emergence...

In the short term this trade benifits DC. If Erpfu does find his form, then Colorado will benifit from this trade in the long run.

Malice

[Grasscutter]

Wow! yet another Erpfu bashing thread disguised as a Vanney thread. :rolleyes:


Yes it is.

I was and am an Erpen defender, I didn't like the trade, and I have to admit that it seems to have worked out well for the short term. In seven words: Matt Mathai was more right than wrong.

But saying we were smart to trade for Vanney because his early suck-itude forced us to develop McTavish and Burch is like saying Ray Hudson was brilliant to bring in Ivanov because his inert play forced us us to play and develop Brian Namoff.

Our record this year with Erpen starting was 6-2-2 (he didn't start the road loss to C-bus).

Our record with Vanney starting this year is 6-2-2--that includes the tie-that-felt-like-a-loss vs. Dallas. And it also includes his last game against N.E., when he badly lost his mark against Twellman and got burned.

Calling out Erpen for the penalty Sunday is the same old B.S. BS--he was covering for Petke(?)/Sanneh's mistake :eek: and actually fouled Merlin just outside the box. By defensive standards, it wasn't nearly as bad as Vanney's lost mark on Twellman.

I just feel better going into this playoff stretch with Vanney, rather than Erpen, in our defensive rotation, and that's a hard thing to admit given my loyalty to Facu. But we haven't won a thing with Vanney yet, and considering his really poor playoff performance the last two years at Dallas, you can't even evaluate the short-term impact of the trade for another two months.

[griffin1108]

As I prepare a sandwich of crow cold cuts, I will say again, I was wrong in my evaluation of the trade. I think Skip also lays out that a combination of personnel changes helped settle down the defense -- especially the emergence of Marc Burch.

However, where I see Vanney's true value is in the organization of the back line during the game. Against NE, even though Vanney was personally trashed by Twellman (as have many other centerbacks in MLS), he constantly shouted, gestured and kept the backline in "shape" and properly positioned. Contrast that effort with the following game against Salt Lake. Boswell played for Vanney and the shape and positioning were adequate at best and not very sharp. That same level of play against NE would have resulted in disaster. Vanney brings a skillset that Boswell doesn't currently possess and allowed Soehn to replace Erpen with MacTavish.

[MattMathai]

Matt Mathai was more right than wrong.

And I'm as light as a duck. Or something like that.

Today's been a good day. :)

People mistake what I say as bashing Erpen. That's not my intent at all. I liked the kid, and thought (and still hold out hope) that he might become an excellent mobile defender one day. He isn't that now, and his learning process was becoming a bit too expensive for us.

Perhaps I'm betraying my biases, but I like boring, predictable, reliable play in my defenders and goalkeeper. Start with that and the whole team can rely upon a solid bedrock.

[Super White Boy]

I completely agree with the article. I wrote in the Vanney-Erpen trade thread that there would probably be a few glitches early on, but that it would pay off in September and in the playoffs. That is how it appears to be working out. I have no complaints. I always thought that Epren had great potential, but did not develop while with United. He is still, regularly making the same mistakes that he was making in his first season with United. Very similar to Titus Bramble with Newcastle.

[JuanMa]

But don't let that get in the way of your deification of Erpen. :rolleyes:

My beef with the trade is that I do not see it as a trade that helped DCU.

I understand Erpen is not a great MLS defender. I also understand he had potential and youth on his side. We could have taken advantage of that.

Don't confuse my disappointment with deification of a player. Only Maradona reaches deity status in my book. Period.

[hasselhoff]

I understand Erpen is not a great MLS defender. I also understand he had potential and youth on his side. We could have taken advantage of that.
Apparently you missed the fact that Erpen becomes a SI next season and there was essentially zero chance DC would use one of their slots on him. Thus his youth and potential were absolutely useless to the club.