Who is the greatest player to have ever worn the red shirt?

[Vermont Red]

*points to heaven*

[Stud83]

*Looks down*
Your finger is so tiny from up here.

[sdotsom]

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/7196642

Charlton speaks on Beckham.

[Gino Franconni]

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/7196642

Charlton speaks on Beckham.


Yes just read it. It's a very polite comment on Sir Bobby's part in saying Beckham lost the script. Sir Bobby hit the nail right on the head on this one!

[TomClare]

Tom, I judge only but the footage of the games I've seen, I obviously haven't seen any of the pre 1990s games in person.
I'm actually interested if there are any official numbers about Puskas's physical characteristics when he was picked up by Real? From various images and footage that I've seen he sure looks like he was well over 200 lbs at least for a portion of his dominant career.

I am not at all denying the greatness of players from old days - in fact, I completely agree that Puskas (and Di Stefano) belong in the top 5 players discussions of all times. They were the best players in their era, and as dominant (if not more so) than any contemporary player.
And there are plenty of players that imo would've had an easy time adjusting to current game - at least most of the ones you included, that's also not something I said.

All I was trying to do is explain the reasoning behind Schmeichel's comment - if you imagine that a game could take place today between a current top level team with their current level of preparation and a team from 50s or 60s with their level of preparation and equipment at that time, it is not a fair comparison, and current teams would have big advantages in terms of physical play, and current interpretation of rules, which is extremely important these days.
I mean - you yourself admitted that much:



EDIT:

http://scienceblogs.com/clock/upload/2006/11/ferenc_puskas.jpg

Reggie Bush is about an inch taller and his weight is 205 pounds, according to Google - am I really that much off when I say Puskas looks here at the very least well over 220 lbs, most of which is not in his muscles. :confused:


Believe me, he was nowhere near 220 lbs which to us Europeans would be around 15 stones 10 lbs. At tops he would have been more like 180 - 185 lbs and I can see just where you're coming from looking at that picture. That picture was actually taken just before he retired in the 60's when he was 37 years of age. It was the FIFA Rest of the World XI versus England game at Wembley in late '63 which was played to celebrate the FA's centenary year.

One thing you have to remember about Puskas is that he lost two years of his career between '56 - 58 due to the Hungarian uprising when he went into exile. Sir matt contemplated signing him at one time, but because of the great young kids that were coming through at the time, decided against it. If you have a look at the pictures of him before that, there is a big difference. When he played for the great Magyar and Honved teams, he carried no surplus weight at all. Don't forget, he was already into his 30's when he joined Real Madrid so you can't say that was the dominant part of his career - it was towards the end of it.

Yes, I understood what you were saying about Schmeichel's comment - but as in all comparisons - you have to assume that there is a level playing field. The teams from bygone eras would imho have adapted themselves to today's era. As I have said in othere threads before, great players, and great teams, from any era, are just that - great - it's what makes them so different. We've been blessed at united by having some of the greatetst teams produced. That team that brought the first glories to United in the first decade of the 1900's was a great team - and players such as Meredith, Duckworth, Roberts, Bell, Stacey, Halse, the Turnbull brothers would have excelled today. They would have adapted to conditions, physicality, pace and other changes.

There was always comparisons even when I was a young boy, but the concensus of opinion, certainly in the North of England at the time, was that the "Babes" were one of the finest teams produced in the history of the game up until that time. It was mostly accepted by most football fans that they were pretty much on a par with the great Arsenal, Huddersfield and Preston North End teams of earlier years. The thing that they were such a young team made them so different, and they were quick to learn and worldly wise.

I accept that it is so difficult to compare players and teams that you never saw. Personally I would have given an arm and a leg to have seen the likes of Gallagher, Dean, James, Tilson, Busby, Meredith, Barson, Spence etc etc. I also dearly wish that a lot of the young people today could have seen Edwards and the "babes", and particularly Best, Law and Charlton in their prime. I see just how excited today's fans get on watching Ronaldo perform - he gets people on the edge of their seats, and he's a great player. But sadly - there are not too many talents like his in Biritish football. Which is why I also wish that younger people could have seen the number of great wingers used to be in the game in the 50's and 60's. Today, to see somebody dribble and run at defenders makes fans gape in awe, particularly the likes as I said, of young Ronaldo. The reason being because players of his capability are rare. But back then, virtually every team had top class wingers and their end product was excellent - it was an everyday part and parcel of the game that you saw week in and week out. Sadly, it is an art that seems to have died.

I tried to find something with pictures on for Puskas and came up with this link - click on Entrance on the right when you get into it and their are 31 pics taken at various times in his football life - think they might interest everybody. The ones at the end when he is well into his 50's - just notice his perfect technique when he is on the ball - even at that age. As they say, form can be temporary but class and skill is there forever.

http://galeria.origo.hu/puskas/puskaseng.html

It's been a good debate with everybody, and please believe me, I do understand how you do see things/

[Gino Franconni]

I can agree with Tom on a number of points. What make's alot of the players' of day's of old so unique is not just the eras' they played in. More important they didn't have the protection from the refs' that the modern players' do now. Of course the state of the game has evolved. Players' in this age are stronger, quicker & the lot but still it took a brave soul to reach the level of greatness in the old days' I look at players' like Charlton, Matthews, Puskas & Edwards' even though his career was cut short in the diaster of 1958 & I have to admire not only their special talents' but the spirit they had in their game. Not to take anything away from all the fine players' in this modern era have to offer but the old guard did it all long before the modern players' of today & to me it command's respect.:)

[xamaicano]

Norman Whiteside.

[Guy Fawkes]

I'm a bit late on this, but my vote goes to that great player Busby Babes. He was one brilliant player!!!


:rolleyes:

[Republic of Mancunia]

Isra's famous!!!

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13170110#post13170110

You've officially made it now. :)

[Twix]

Now i can barely comment on the 'Greats' of today's modern game but i have to agree with the view that the players of old would hold their own in today's game and vice-versa.

The way i see it (and this might seem a stupid analogy) is comparing the old 'greats' to the current 'greats is kind of like comparing Messi's goal against Getafe to Maradona's goal against England.

You can argue about the fitness and physique of the opposition, the significance and the stage and the quality of the pitch and balls etc. But to me anyway, whenever it is, wherever it is, a great goal is a great goal as is a great player is always a great player.

Hopefully I didn't ramble on and you can see the point I'm trying to make.

[lynne]

I can agree with Tom on a number of points. What make's alot of the players' of day's of old so unique is not just the eras' they played in. More important they didn't have the protection from the refs' that the modern players' do now. Of course the state of the game has evolved. Players' in this age are stronger, quicker & the lot but still it took a brave soul to reach the level of greatness in the old days' I look at players' like Charlton, Matthews, Puskas & Edwards' even though his career was cut short in the diaster of 1958 & I have to admire not only their special talents' but the spirit they had in their game. Not to take anything away from all the fine players' in this modern era have to offer but the old guard did it all long before the modern players' of today & to me it command's respect.:)

I had always assumed that the really good players from decades ago would still be good today, BUT....I also assumed that maybe the not-so-good players from decades ago wouldn't be nearly as good as the not-so-good players today. My mental image is of George Best playing in a sea of Clint Mathis's -- players that if they could have caught Best would have broken him in two, but who were overweight, out of shape, hung over....

Is this impression wrong? (and I'm not talking about my impression of Clint Mathis!)

[israbeckham]

Isra's famous!!!

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13170110#post13170110

You've officially made it now. :)

BLOODY HELL.

[TomClare]

I had always assumed that the really good players from decades ago would still be good today, BUT....I also assumed that maybe the not-so-good players from decades ago wouldn't be nearly as good as the not-so-good players today. My mental image is of George Best playing in a sea of Clint Mathis's -- players that if they could have caught Best would have broken him in two, but who were overweight, out of shape, hung over....

Is this impression wrong? (and I'm not talking about my impression of Clint Mathis!)


Better, and much fitter players than Clint Mathis tried to catch Bestie in their time - none succeeded. Watch the old film clips of George, and see just how quick he was - how many times do you see him staying on his feet and riding the attempted tackles? And as for breaking him in two - George was as hard as any player you can mention believe me - and had the biggest of hearts and mountains of courage.

[sdotsom]

One of the things that really blows my mind is George Best's ability to ride challenges. Some of the things opposing defenders would do to try and stop him would be instant red cards, and even 3-6 match bans these days! One clip that sticks out in my mind has George running towards the 18 - I believe it was against Chelsea. At the 18, the last defender just scythes into him! You see George's legs sharply jerk and then he's off still running, and scores. It's incredible the kind of tackles that people would just throw in on class attacking players then.


Off course, I am turning a blind eye to old Nobby Stiles and Eusebio at Wembley ;)

[israbeckham]

I too noticed this from his clips. But in todays game its just part of the game to try and get the most you can from the ref...

[sdotsom]

Tom, you must have answered this over a thousand times, so if you even want to just point me in the direction of one of your answers rather than reposting your thoughts, please do so.

How much better were the Busby Babes when compared to the Class of 1992? At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I would like to know if the difference was of such a magnitude as I've heard/been told, etc. I obviously can't speak, recount, about that side, but now that the 1992 class is slowly winding down (I don't think any will be in our side in 2-3 years tops), by all measures it was absolutely brilliant.

I may receive some flack for perceived disrespect of the Babes - however, I'd rather get a firsthand account from someone such as you Tom, rather than just saying "Of Course the Babes were better" because I'm supposed to say that.

Cheers for the answer.

[totalfootball9]

George Best

[johno]

There are many great United legends, but who do you think is the face of the club as a whole since its existence. Now just now, but every since United was first formed, who is the best player to have ever played here?

-Ryan Giggs
-Paul Scholes
-Busby Babes
-Eric Cantona
-Roy Keane
-Ole
-Bobby Charlton
-George Best
-David Beckham, seriously.

Many more. My say is Giggsy because he is the most decorated United player ever.

I thought this needed bumping. :D

[cr7torossi]

I thought this needed bumping. :D

The funny thing is the number of replies it took before someone pointed it out:D

[MtP07]

I still can't believe israbeckham thought Busby Babes was a player's name. :D :D