Who is the greatest player to have ever worn the red shirt?

[Stud83]

I know that I am biased, but for me, the 1957 team was the best team that Ihave seen from United in the time that i have been following them.

Tom, you have to factor in physical preparations of players these days and back then. It's really incomparable - players nowdays are faster, stronger, have more efficient practice routines, have personal trainers and gyms, have all the technology for studying the game, etc. If you factor all of that in and compare it directly to teams in 50s and 60s, there is really no comparison. I mean - Puskas at the time was considered to be the best player in the world. And he was about 5'8, 250 lbs, one footed, and still kept scoring at a ridiculous pace. These days someone with these characteristcis probably wouldn't make a 3rd division team, let alone any top level club.
So with all due respect to older teams, if you factor in other things besides talent, you have to understand where Schmeichel was coming from.

[holytoledo]

Tom, you have to factor in physical preparations of players these days and back then. It's really incomparable - players nowdays are faster, stronger, have more efficient practice routines, have personal trainers and gyms, have all the technology for studying the game, etc. If you factor all of that in and compare it directly to teams in 50s and 60s, there is really no comparison. I mean - Puskas at the time was considered to be the best player in the world. And he was about 5'8, 250 lbs, one footed, and still kept scoring at a ridiculous pace. These days someone with these characteristcis probably wouldn't make a 3rd division team, let alone any top level club.
So with all due respect to older teams, if you factor in other things besides talent, you have to understand where Schmeichel was coming from.

What!? :confused:

[israbeckham]

Tom, you have to factor in physical preparations of players these days and back then. It's really incomparable - players nowdays are faster, stronger, have more efficient practice routines, have personal trainers and gyms, have all the technology for studying the game, etc. If you factor all of that in and compare it directly to teams in 50s and 60s, there is really no comparison. I mean - Puskas at the time was considered to be the best player in the world. And he was about 5'8, 250 lbs, one footed, and still kept scoring at a ridiculous pace. These days someone with these characteristcis probably wouldn't make a 3rd division team, let alone any top level club.
So with all due respect to older teams, if you factor in other things besides talent, you have to understand where Schmeichel was coming from.

True dat, completely agree.
Players like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Robinho, the other Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Raul, Ricardinho, Rooney, Requelme, Rotevez, Roadriano, Romessi, and Ronani would dominate the shit out of the older leagues, imo

[TomClare]

Tom, you have to factor in physical preparations of players these days and back then. It's really incomparable - players nowdays are faster, stronger, have more efficient practice routines, have personal trainers and gyms, have all the technology for studying the game, etc. If you factor all of that in and compare it directly to teams in 50s and 60s, there is really no comparison. I mean - Puskas at the time was considered to be the best player in the world. And he was about 5'8, 250 lbs, one footed, and still kept scoring at a ridiculous pace. These days someone with these characteristcis probably wouldn't make a 3rd division team, let alone any top level club.
So with all due respect to older teams, if you factor in other things besides talent, you have to understand where Schmeichel was coming from.

I factor in what I have actually seen. It's not incomparable. Yes, players are well prepared today both physically and mentally (just as they were all those years ago) and great strides have been made in sports medicine, equipment, stadiums, playing surfaces etc - and rightly so. Yes, the game maybe just marginally quicker today than what it was, but that's not down to the players imho, it's down to the pristine surfaces that players play on today and also the type of ball that's used today which has a coating that prevents moisture getting to the leather. It's also why the bloody thing moves about so much in the air and is such a nightmare for 'keepers, and zips about upon the surface.

You do those old players such an injustice with your statements, especially Puskas whom I presume that you have never ever actually seen play in the flesh? Puskas was never anywhere near the grossly exaggerated type of weight that you state, and for your information, was not as one footed as many people made out. I saw him play many times and can assure you, he'd have been a huge star in today's modern game.

It saddens me today to read stuff like this. It's a complete myth that players are much fitter, faster, etc today than they were - again, I can assure you, that's not quite true. Are you trying to tell me that players like Charlton, Best, Law, Edwards, Taylor, Finney, Mathews, Moore, Hurst, Peters, Shackleton, Lofthouse, Ball, Bell, etc etc would struggle in today's game and were not fit? My own feelings are that today's players would struggle to perform in the conditions and on the surfaces that those guys had to play on back then. Try telling people that have been left trailing in the wake of Best etc that they weren't quick!

Players in the game today are cossetted and get away with murder. There is no obstruction law of any sort today, tackling in the game is virtually non-existent, the tackle from behind has gone, goalkeepers cannot be challenged. Some of the stuff I see going on in penalty areas these days at set pieces from free kicks and corners amazes me - the grabbing, pulling, obstructing etc which always results in the attacking players being penalised and never a defender.

The game is hyped more today than it ever has been and this came with the formation of the Premiership, and to hear a lot of people talk these days, you would think that football only began in 1992. Film archive of those old players does them a great disservice because of the poor filming technology that was around beack then.

I played the game professionally in a number of countries around the world, and at a decent level, and I know what I saw and what I see today.

[TomClare]

True dat, completely agree.
Players like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Robinho, the other Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Raul, Ricardinho, Rooney, Requelme, Rotevez, Roadriano, Romessi, and Ronani would dominate the shit out of the older leagues, imo

That is nonsensical imho - so what you are saying is that players like Di Stefano, Pele, Didi, Garrincha, Kubala, Schiaffino, Sivori, Charles, Edwards, Mathews, Finney, Beckenbauer, Eusebio, Sekularac, Kopa, Gento, Julihno, Maldini, Liedholm, Fontaine, Suarez, Fachetti, Mazzola, etc etc would have just buckled under today's players? That's laughable to say the least. It makes me smile just thinking about it. Many players today are lauded with labels like "world class", "legend" when they are in fact anything but. I'm just so glad that I have not only witnessed the game as it is today.

[sdotsom]

Gotta agree with Tom on this one. How could you possibly compare 2 separate generations together like that? I think it's impossible, personally. There are definitely players on both sides that could have cut it in the other generation - a player like R9 or Rooney could have played back then. But at the same time, the players Tom mentioned, or at least a lot of them could have held their own now. To say that players in our generation would "dominate the shit" out of the past is just ridiculous.

Isra, how the hell do players like Robinho, Ricardinho, Adriano, Nani even make your list? They are barely relevant nowadays! Tom is right, we toss around the "world class" tag way to easily these days.

[Vermont Red]

Any sensible debate comparing players over eras has to adjust for changes like equipment, playing conditions, training methods, etc. (This goes for any sport.) If the United legends of the past were playing today, they would be playing on those beautiful pitches, with that beautiful ball and would have their trainers and chefs and so on. There is no reason to denigrate players of bygone eras just because the game looks so primitive in scratchy, black and white newsreel footage.

[MtP07]

True dat, completely agree.
Players like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Robinho, the other Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Raul, Ricardinho, Rooney, Requelme, Rotevez, Roadriano, Romessi, and Ronani would dominate the shit out of the older leagues, imo

Is there a reason for the alliteration?

Any sensible debate comparing players over eras has to adjust for changes like equipment, playing conditions, training methods, etc. (This goes for any sport.) If the United legends of the past were playing today, they would be playing on those beautiful pitches, with that beautiful ball and would have their trainers and chefs and so on. There is no reason to denigrate players of bygone eras just because the game looks so primitive in scratchy, black and white newsreel footage.

Definitely agree.

[SirManchester]

True dat, completely agree.
Players like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Robinho, the other Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Raul, Ricardinho, Rooney, Requelme, Rotevez, Roadriano, Romessi, and Ronani would dominate the shit out of the older leagues, imo

I'm sorry but this just may be the dumbest assessment I've read on this website. I've seen a lot of dummy statements over the years but this takes the cake.

How can you possibly think this? I don't even think Stud would agree with this. The tough conditions players were under back then only made them that much better. Many argue that players today are far more technical but that isn't neccessarily true. The only change came in fitness and speed. I'd even go on to argue (And this is from loads and loads of archival footage I've seen and from older fans I've talked to) that players like Cruyff, Beckenbauer, DiStefano, Puskas, Kopa, Fontaine, Gento, and Walter were all more technically gifted than a lot of the players you mentioned above. In fact the level of quality football had decreased dramatically since the 70's - and this is from a 22 year old who grew up with 90's football and on. Whenever I watch matches from the 60's or 70's for example and even into the 80's, the quality level is evident. Nowadays only a handful of teams are able to play what can be considered quality (even the term has changed because of it) football, but whenever I look back at some European matches form twenty years ago up to Bundesliga matches between 1. FC Köln and Fortuna Düsseldorf - and if I had to choose which I'd watch, there's no doubt in my mind what it would be.

[sdotsom]

I think so much is different between the 2 times - just so much. From the way capitalization and money have taken over the game so much as to affect the way teams play (my opinion anyway), to the quality of equipment, pitch, even the shirts players wear, and the amount of care/pampering given to players these days, etc - it's a completely different game now.

This can be taken 2 ways though - some older people in the game see this, and maybe do not give players in the present their just dues. Just because the past had tougher conditions, etc., doesn't mean that NO MODERN PLAYER can ever be as good as the likes of Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff. We can't sell short the few real class players that exist these days in the name of the past.

Just at the same time, ridiculous comments like those above must be ignored as well. Players like Nani, Tevez, Ricardinho (this one really still has my laughing at work) are insignficant blips in the all time history of football. And to say that they would dominate old teams would be nonsensical as well. There aren't too many player of class these days - I'd say Raul, Zidane, Giggs, players of that stature over the past decade or so, but not alot, that would be able to run with Di Stefano, Puskas, etc.

That's why I just stay away from comparing the 2 generations at all. It never can possibly account for the thousands of factors.

[SirManchester]

Obviously players nowadays can be as great or all times, up there with the aforementioned. Sometimes however, I do think what those older players would be like if they had all the advantages of modern players and similary you could reverse this scenario.

[Vermont Red]

The only thing to keep in mind, with all due respect to the previous generations, is that its normal to prefer the generation that played when you first became a fan and revere them more as time goes on. One day we'll be the veteran fans arguing about how the game was different at the beginning of the century and how Rooney and Ronaldo would not be out place on the 2025 United team.

[sdotsom]

Exactly. It's nearly impossible for someone to be objective about this. It really all depends on the time you watched the game. When someone asks me who I think the best United player of all time is, the first names that even cross my mind - not even in terms of greatest, just the term United player - are Giggs, Scholes, Keano, and co. Then I can reach back to the few clips I've seen of Best. But for me to say that Duncan Edwards was the greatest, even though it may be true, is hard, as it's completely on faith. All the firsthand accounts in the world (even if they are as pleasing to read as yours, Tom) can't beat actually seeing a player.

It's really an impossible discussion to have.

[SirManchester]

The only thing to keep in mind, with all due respect to the previous generations, is that its normal to prefer the generation that played when you first became a fan and revere them more as time goes on. One day we'll be the veteran fans arguing about how the game was different at the beginning of the century and how Rooney and Ronaldo would not be out place on the 2025 United team.

That's fair and it makes sense, but I was born in the 80's and I'm arguing for players from up to three decades before that. It's very possible one can be objective about this, as long as he/she is properly informed and educated on the subject. I think it's fair to say Tom knows a bit more about it than israbeckham.

[Vermont Red]

It's very possible one can be objective about this, as long as he/she is properly informed and educated on the subject.

No question. I wasn't having a go at you, I was only pointing out that every generation reveres their own and laments a golden age that has just passed. No doubt when Tom was growing up there was talk of former legends who were better than the Babes.

[SirManchester]

No question. I wasn't having a go at you, I was only pointing out that every generation reveres their own and laments a golden age that has just passed. No doubt when Tom was growing up there was talk of former legends who were better than the Babes.

That's interesting. I would love to know if that was the case while the Babes were coming up. United did have some good history with two pretty good teams before but upon seeing the Babes play, surely there must have been some kind of understanding that that was probably the best United has produced by then.

[Val1]

I'll leave you guys to the tired old which-generation-is-best debate, though I'm firmly in the camp that says Jim Brown, Cousy, Rod Laver and Puskas would dominate regardless of their era.

My vote: Schmiechel.

[Stud83]

Tom, I judge only but the footage of the games I've seen, I obviously haven't seen any of the pre 1990s games in person.
I'm actually interested if there are any official numbers about Puskas's physical characteristics when he was picked up by Real? From various images and footage that I've seen he sure looks like he was well over 200 lbs at least for a portion of his dominant career.

I am not at all denying the greatness of players from old days - in fact, I completely agree that Puskas (and Di Stefano) belong in the top 5 players discussions of all times. They were the best players in their era, and as dominant (if not more so) than any contemporary player.
And there are plenty of players that imo would've had an easy time adjusting to current game - at least most of the ones you included, that's also not something I said.

All I was trying to do is explain the reasoning behind Schmeichel's comment - if you imagine that a game could take place today between a current top level team with their current level of preparation and a team from 50s or 60s with their level of preparation and equipment at that time, it is not a fair comparison, and current teams would have big advantages in terms of physical play, and current interpretation of rules, which is extremely important these days.
I mean - you yourself admitted that much:
Some of the stuff I see going on in penalty areas these days at set pieces from free kicks and corners amazes me - the grabbing, pulling, obstructing etc which always results in the attacking players being penalised and never a defender.


EDIT:

http://scienceblogs.com/clock/upload/2006/11/ferenc_puskas.jpg

Reggie Bush is about an inch taller and his weight is 205 pounds, according to Google - am I really that much off when I say Puskas looks here at the very least well over 220 lbs, most of which is not in his muscles. :confused:

[israbeckham]

Ok so when I made that stupid list at first I was just trying to list very technical players like Ronaldo and Ronaldinho and ten just kept going with the R's:p Obviously I wouldn't actually have Ricardinho, Nani, Tevez, or Adriano in there...

Tom is right that a good part of why todays game is faster and todays players ability seem better is because of the ball, the boots, the pitch etc...
I havent really seen most of those legends play tbh:p (BIG surprise?) only a few Maraddona and pele clips, but it really s hard to compare.

Tom is very lucky to have seen all those great legends play, let a lone play professionally, but again non of us can really know except for Tom, or maybe DS how those players would act in todays league.

Again that post when I listed all those players it was really only half serious

[Gino Franconni]

This is a pretty good thread as most people here actually think before they post. To compare one United player from one era to another United player from a different era in a way is like trying to compare apples to oranges in a way. I guess one thing we can all agree on is we all seem to be loyal United fans' & by being so & the fact that United has such a rich history we have so many great United players' from the past & to the present day to choose from as being our favorite United players'! I bet you thought you would never hear that coming from an Italian but stranger things' have happened in life aye! Actually I'm just half Italian as my Mum is from the Brittish Isles' so I grew up in both cultures' & admire the Football both cultures' play & that's why I can pull for & support both Manchester United & Inter Milan. I just enjoy watching good Football regardless who's playing & in the end that's all that really matters' don't you think? Champions League should be interesting though this year but to have both United & Roma thrown ito the same group is a fix if I've ever seen one. If it's not a fix then I'm the King of Siam! I just hope there will be no trouble for United fans' if they go to Rome for the return leg. People should be able to go to a match, enjoy themselves & support their club without having to worry if their lives' are at risk. Italy should learn from England as far as Football is concerned. England cleaned up their game & now have the best league in the world. Italy should follow the same pattern as well. Violence between supporters' has to stop. Fight on United!