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kingkong1
12 Dec 2008, 08:28 PM
Here's what I don't understand. Why does nobody include Brasil '58 as worthy of top-3 consideration? Mind you this was the only team to win a WC on the rival continent's (Europe) soil, who boasted a rock-solid defense (unlike the samba machine of '70) led by Nilton and Djalma Santos, an elusive playmaker in Didi, and a frontline and wing that consisted of two of football's top ten all-time players in their physical prime.

I honestly think they should be considered first, followed by (if the logic of WC-winning still stands) Brasil '70 and Hungary '54. Perhaps Hungary should be first; they were miles ahead of everybody, with a hugely controversial offside call on Puskas in the final the only thing that separates them from legend statusIt's because if you list Brazil 58, 70 as well as 38, 50, 62, 82 there would be only 4 spots for the others in the top 10 :p...

Seriously now:

1. Brazil 58-62-70

More than a generation - a whole dinasty.

In my opinion it's impossible to dissociate those 3 teams.

The 1st two (58-62) player-by-player are practically the same.

1970 (although only with Pelé and the now coach Zagallo of the original formation) was their tactical crystallization.

Not exactly the same strategy, but its natural development.

The flashy initial 4-2-4 naturally giving way to a supple 4-3-3.

A 12 year long work-in-progress by a same organism.

A law of nature.

In 66 CBD's megalomanyac desorganization (allied, of course, to 66 FIFA WC institutionalized violence) temporarilly derranged it: 4 high-level National Teams were formed a couple of months before the Cup.

Had Feola just picked one of them and trained them appropriately, Brazil would have won its 3rd Cup in a row.

And the 66 world champions unabashedly displayed an apolinean variation of the Brz 4-3-3, the 4-4-2, thereby guaranteeing its continuation.

58-70 was simply the golden generation in the golden epoch of world football.

2. Hungary 52-54

Co-inventors with Brazil of the 4-2-4, and along with the Canarinhos (wish dor02 or not) the matrixes of modern football.

Even not winning the 54 title it marked indelibly the unconscious of the game: monsters of the ball, the Mighty Magiars had they a luckier road ahead (in terms of titles & political atmosphere) might be joining Brazil (or even surpassing it) in that 1st post.

3. Holland 74

The first & latest original contribution to the game's tactics after Hungary's & Brazil intervention in the 50's.

There has been nothing equal to that, not before nor even after.

If the revolution they installed had continued (something very difficult to happen, since it demanded relentless good physical shape allied to great individual ability and superior tactical consciousness dictated by an out-of-this-world coach, and that during generations), they'd probably be the best of all times.

The rest debates itself amidst the heritage of those 3 powerhouses.

dor02
13 Dec 2008, 03:37 AM
Co-inventors with Brazil of the 4-2-4, and along with the Canarinhos (wish dor02 or not) the matrixes of modern football.I didn't say that Hungary and Brazil didn't invent the 4-2-4. I just said that Brazil didn't invent the 4-4-2.

kingkong1
13 Dec 2008, 07:11 AM
I didn't say that Hungary and Brazil didn't invent the 4-2-4. I just said that Brazil didn't invent the 4-4-2.The 4-4-2 was not invented 'by someone' since it's not a system by itself.

Alf Ramsey used it in 66 as a more radical defensive adaptation of the Brz 4-3-3, which on its turn was for the first time used by Feola/Aimoré/Zagallo as a milder defensive variation of the Hungarian/Brz Guttman/Costa 4-2-4 (gradually developped between 1950 and 1958).

The root of all those 'systems' (wich gave way to the 'modern' 4-3-3 & 4-4-2) is Magyar/Brz (the 4-2-4) - and remains as the basis for all football played till our days.

With the luxurious contribution of Holland, of course.

What I said was:Hungary 54:

Co-inventors with Brazil of the 4-2-4, and along with the Canarinhos (wish dor02 or not) the matrixes of modern football.What fully corroborates the words of mine so generously cited in your signature. ;)

uamiranda
17 Dec 2008, 06:25 AM
Brazil 1970
Hungary 1954
Holland 1974
Brazil 1958
Germany 1972-1974
Brazil 1982
France 1998-2000

kingkong1
18 Dec 2008, 09:42 AM
Finally a twin soul!...



UAMiranda & I agree in almost everything:



Classic XI



(By UAMiranda)



Gilmar


Djalma Santos...Domingos da Guia...Bauer...Nilton Santos


Zito


Garrincha...Didi...Zizinho


Pelé...Leônidas


Subs:


Taffarel


Carlos Alberto...Luís Pereira...Mauro...Roberto Carlos


Falcão


Gérson...Zico...Rivelino


Ronaldo...Romário



¨¨



(BY KingKong1)



Gilmar

Carlos Alberto...Domingos da Guia...Nilton Santos

Didi...Zizinho

Garrincha...Pelé...Leônidas...Tostão...Rivelino


Subs:


Taffarel

Djalma Santos...Luís Pereira...Marinho Chagas

Zito...Gérson...Evaristo

Julinho Botelho...Jairzinho...Zico...Canhoteiro




Best National Teams Of All Times



(By UAMiranda)



Brazil 1970
Hungary 1954
Holland 1974
Brazil 1958
Germany 1972-1974
Brazil 1982
France 1998-2000



***



(By KingKong1)



Brazil (1958-1962-1970)

Hungary 1954

Holland 1974



***



The ‘almosts’:



For me it’s a sin not have Tostão in the starting team (the Tostão of Cruzeiro and not the one of 1970, when he played half-blind), and have Garrincha in the middle just in name of the symmetry Pelé-Leônidas.



With a pleiad of players like that Brazil is one of the only teams of the planet (maybe the only one) that might afford starting with 5 forwards, what would make justice to its historically formidable offensive tradition (this Brazil needs no ‘tactics’: all it’s got to do is…attack).



Two players in the midfield (Brz’s best ever: Didi, Zizinho) would be enough to give the touch of class.



In defense I could see Djalma Santos in place of Carlos Alberto, but since the proposal here is a totally offensive team, Carlos Alberto in the right and Nilton Santos in the left would munitiate the attack more efficiently.



The only player fixed in defense would be Domingos da Guia (we’d forgive him and Gilmar for the considerable amount of goals they’d have to allow. No problem to them: with forwards like that, to each goal they’d accept Brazil would easily score five or seven).



Whoever it be (Hungary 54, Germany 74, or even unorthodox Holland 74) the adversary (even, in the case of the 1st 2, if they used the ‘modern’ 4-3-3***) would just have (numerical) advantage in the midfield, equality in their offense x Brz defense duel, but would be absolutely clobbered by the numeric and qualitative Brazilian superiority in the attack.



(*** Holland, in the tactical aspect, with its ‘total football’, would be the one to give that Brz the best fight, but in my opinion they’d up sinking in face of the absolutely superior technical quality of the Brz squad).



I think it’s a sin too - as far as The Best National Teams -, and IMO even an incorrection, to dismember 1958 from 1970: the latter - although with just Pelé and Zagallo (as a coach) from the original team - was the tactical tip of the iceberg, a logical consequence of the former, and naturally also of 1962 (which practically had the same players of 58).



1958, 1962, 1970 (and amidst them the unsuccessful 1966 team) IMHO are inseparable and belong to the same ‘linha evolutiva’.