Can Africa actually host in 2010?

[pething101]

Looked back a couple of pages and did not see this posted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/africa/2188671.stm

"South Africa's hopes of winning the bid to host the 2010 World Cup bid have been damaged by revelations of the criminal career of the bid committee's chairman Irvin Khoza."

[FunGuy]

Yoy guys still don't get it. south africa is not some banana republic. it had, and still has the people, money infastructure and accomidation. The south african economy it is doing better than the current america economy is,with a strenging currency, and a better growth rate. and the infecion rate of aids there is not 40%, closer to 10% which is still high i will admit. Soth africa also has some of the most beautiful cities on the planet, you guys bashing the ccountry should do some research on the country before bashing it

also you guys should stop putting south africa whith the rest of africa. south africa is in a league of it's own. ie japan has the same problems as the rest of asian and is to poor to host anything

[BenReilly]

Originally posted by FunGuy
Yoy guys still don't get it. south africa is not some banana republic. it had, and still has the people, money infastructure and accomidation. The south african economy it is doing better than the current america economy is,with a strenging currency, and a better growth rate. and the infecion rate of aids there is not 40%, closer to 10% which is still high i will admit. Soth africa also has some of the most beautiful cities on the planet, you guys bashing the ccountry should do some research on the country before bashing it

also you guys should stop putting south africa whith the rest of africa. south africa is in a league of it's own. ie japan has the same problems as the rest of asian and is to poor to host anything

LOL. This is just so funny. South Africa is ranked #94 on the Human Development Index.





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[kenntomasch]

Originally posted by FunGuy
also you guys should stop putting south africa whith the rest of africa. south africa is in a league of it's own.

Are they going to make the playoffs this year?

[saabrian]

Originally posted by GoHawks4
I actually don't care where it is, im just saying that there is no way Africa can hold it. I would go to a Cup anywhere else but I would never go to Africa.

I lived in West Africa for two years. There are parts of it which are very dangerous and parts of it which are very safe. I lived in an African village where I felt perfectly comfortable being away from my house for an hour or more leaving the door wide open. I feel safe here in upstate NY but would never do that. There are some cities in that country where I felt safe walking the streets at night and others where I didn't. There are lots of cities in the US which fit both categories.

I'm sorry you wouldn't go to a World Cup in Africa. I think you'd missing out on something more than just soccer. Like a chance to learn that not everything is the way it appears on tv. But even if you didn't go, and perhaps your vehemence against an African country is because you want to go to WC2010, I don't think that should factor into FIFA's decision.

[saabrian]

>LOL. This is just so funny. South Africa is ranked >#94 on the Human Development Index.

Which is only a few spots behind China (#87). The same China who was recently awarded the Summer Olympics, the only sporting tournament in the larger than the World Cup.

[gfhh]

I'm so sorry to see all the ignorant people afraid of the idea of going to Africa. There's no doubt that most of Africa has problems, big problems, and that the almost every country on the continent couldn't even think of holding a U12 regional event let alone the World Cup but there are at least a couple of legitimate choices to host, if not in 2010 than 2014 or 2018. Certainly Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and South Africa. Perhaps if things could improve drastically, even Nigeria or Kenya could host sometime down the line.

Most people, particularly people in the United States, don't know s*** about Africa and when they start taking smack about something they know nothing about I think that's wrong.

The bottom line: Can Africa host the WC in 2010? Probably not. Does it deserve to? Absolutely! Someone earlier mentioned that just because it's called the World Cup doesn't mean that it has to be played all over the world. I couldn't disagree more! Soccer is one of the few, if not the only, true worldwide sport. It's probably the greatest strength that the game has and it's THE reason why soccer is, by far and away, the most popular sport in the world. This diversity NEEDS to be celebrated!

My suggestion is for people to try to get away from the notion that the WC HAS to be played in a place where they can build twenty lavish state-of-the-art stadiums. A lot of you people make is sound like a place like South Africa is full of crumbling stadiums that have no chance of being renovated in time to even be safe for 2010 and that the country is so dangerous that everyone who sets foot within it's borders stands a greater chance of being killed than making it out alive.

Having the WC in Africa, if not in 2010 than 2014 or 2020, would be important for Africa and important for world soccer. The diversity of soccer is perhaps it's greatest strength and it should be embraced by FIFA.

[GoHawks4]

Diversity is great. Wippy.

That doesn't mean that you put the largest event in soccer in a country that is probably unable to host it. My opinion has been swayed slightly that this cup would be more grass-roots, which I dig, but the African Spirit that you speak of is not likely to take place due to the fact that most people can afford the tickets and those who can aren't soccer fans.

[superdave]

Originally posted by gfhh
Perhaps if things could improve drastically, even Nigeria or Kenya could host sometime down the line.
My wife is from Kenya. I was there 3 years ago to pay the nyombo.

I'm in my 30's, and unless there are some amazing advances in gerontology, I'll be long dead when Kenya hosts a World Cup. My God, man, you're saying other people don't know anything about Africa, and you're touting a nation of less than 30M for hosting a World Cup?!?!?! How many stadiums do you think they can build in Mombassa and Nairobi??? What other city could handle the media and tourists???

I mean, the clock on progress won't even start until Moi dies, and he's obviously made a deal with Satan to live forever. Oh yeah, if he's still around, I guess they'll put a stadium in Eldoret. ;)

The bottom line: Can Africa host the WC in 2010? Probably not. Does it deserve to? Absolutely!
I don't understand this. You're saying the continent deserves to fail. That makes no sense.

Also, I would point out that you're under the impression that continents bid, rather than nations. Africa deserves NOTHING. Maybe SAfrica does. I don't think so, but at least it's a debatable point.

My suggestion is for people to try to get away from the notion that the WC HAS to be played in a place where they can build twenty lavish state-of-the-art stadiums.
I don't want to get away from reality and common sense. But that's just me...maybe you'll have more success persuading others.

A lot of you people make is sound like a place like South Africa is full of crumbling stadiums
We probably got that impression from the various recent stadium tragedies.

[Alberto]

Originally posted by gfhh
I'm so sorry to see all the ignorant people afraid of the idea of going to Africa. There's no doubt that most of Africa has problems, big problems, and that the almost every country on the continent couldn't even think of holding a U12 regional event let alone the World Cup but there are at least a couple of legitimate choices to host, if not in 2010 than 2014 or 2018. Certainly Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and South Africa. Perhaps if things could improve drastically, even Nigeria or Kenya could host sometime down the line.

Most people, particularly people in the United States, don't know s*** about Africa and when they start taking smack about something they know nothing about I think that's wrong.

The bottom line: Can Africa host the WC in 2010? Probably not. Does it deserve to? Absolutely! Someone earlier mentioned that just because it's called the World Cup doesn't mean that it has to be played all over the world. I couldn't disagree more! Soccer is one of the few, if not the only, true worldwide sport. It's probably the greatest strength that the game has and it's THE reason why soccer is, by far and away, the most popular sport in the world. This diversity NEEDS to be celebrated!

My suggestion is for people to try to get away from the notion that the WC HAS to be played in a place where they can build twenty lavish state-of-the-art stadiums. A lot of you people make is sound like a place like South Africa is full of crumbling stadiums that have no chance of being renovated in time to even be safe for 2010 and that the country is so dangerous that everyone who sets foot within it's borders stands a greater chance of being killed than making it out alive.

Having the WC in Africa, if not in 2010 than 2014 or 2020, would be important for Africa and important for world soccer. The diversity of soccer is perhaps it's greatest strength and it should be embraced by FIFA.

How can you be so sure that American are ignorant of what goes on in South Africa?

How can South Africa justify the expenditure on the world cup when it has so many more pressing problems to resolve?

Facts:
50 percent of the population live below the poverty line.
30% unemployment rate
GDP $8,500, half of Korea's and 1/4 of Japan's

Check this link from the BBC regarding South Africa's crime and murder rates
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1913618.stm#graph

[saabrian]

We probably got that impression from the various recent stadium tragedies. [/QUOTE]

One of the stadium tragedies took place in Accra, Ghana and another in Ellis Park, South Afrca.

Do you honestly think something like that would happen in a major tournament in 2002 (or 2010)? Ghana successfully co-hosted the African Nations Cup (CAN) 2000 while South Africa hosted a successful CAN in 1996. No stadium tragedies.

There was the Hillsborough disaster in '89, but nothing comparable when England hosted Euro '96. Belgium learned from Heysel in '85 and successfully co-hosted Euro 2000.

I expect that South Africa will learn from its disaster like England and Belgium did.

Although you're right about Kenya being in no position to host a WC anytime soon.

[saabrian]

Originally posted by Alberto


How can you be so sure that American are ignorant of what goes on in South Africa?



I think one gets that impression because so many posters say Africa this and Africa that, instead of making specific arguments regarding specific bidding countries.

Now you made specific points about South Africa backed up by facts and I can deal with that. But others have made statements like, "I'd never go to a World Cup hosted anywhere in Africa."

[GoHawks4]

Originally posted by saabrian


I think one gets that impression because so many posters say Africa this and Africa that, instead of making specific arguments regarding specific bidding countries.

Now you made specific points about South Africa backed up by facts and I can deal with that. But others have made statements like, "I'd never go to a World Cup hosted anywhere in Africa."

Facts? Want 'em? Here.

www.hixnet.co.za/home/kel/sacp.html

[gfhh]

You're probably right about Kenya, Superdave, I doubt they could handle hosting the WC any time within the next thirty years but what about S. Africa? Egypt? Tunisia? Morocco?

The notion of whether or not an African country deserves to host the cup and whether they can host a cup are two different things. What I was trying to say was that it's not likely, given the current situation, that any African country would be able to host a cup in 2010 but does that mean that we should simply turn out backs on the continent and forget about them? An African country deserves to host the cup in the future, because every continent deserves to host a cup--even if it means that the stadiums aren't as nice. A lot of people made the case that since most people in the US don't give a crap about soccer that they shouldn't have hosted the cup in 94, is that right? No. My feeling is that as long as an African country can provide several (and it doesn't have to be twenty) decent stadiums, and reasonable infrastructure, they should host a cup because they deserve to as much as Europe, Asia, South America, North America and Australia. Will that be in 2010? Probably not, but it very well might be in 2014 or 2020.

[superdave]

Originally posted by saabrian
One of the stadium tragedies took place in Accra, Ghana and another in Ellis Park, South Afrca.

I thought there were 3. But now, I can't think of the 3rd. For some reason, Zimbabwe is popping into my head.

Or maybe I'm just wrong.

Look, it's unrealistic to compare any nation's ability to host to the US'. Because of gridiron football, we could divide the nation into 5 parts that each could host the World Cup and break all attendance records.

But there are minimum standards for hotels, communications, and seating (both quality and quantity.) My wife and one of her friends here know people who have moved to South Africa because it's actually better there than in Kenya (which tells you how awful Kenya is.) SAfrica *is* ahead of the rest of sub-Saharan Africa wrt the economy.

But the dual AIDS and crime problems are swallowing up SAfrica's chance. Things there are also deteriorating. I'll reiterate my two main points. First, it would be a criminal derelicition of duty for the SAfrican gvt. to spend the necessary money. But, that's not FIFA's problem IMO. That's for SAfrican voters to decide.

Second, without progress on the AIDS front, I don't see how SAfrica can pull it off. The epidemic is cutting a swath through the young adult population of SAfrica. IOW, the most productive group.

[Alberto]

Originally posted by saabrian


I think one gets that impression because so many posters say Africa this and Africa that, instead of making specific arguments regarding specific bidding countries.

Now you made specific points about South Africa backed up by facts and I can deal with that. But others have made statements like, "I'd never go to a World Cup hosted anywhere in Africa."

I think for a lot of Americans, there is a real concern regarding safety in third world countries. It also true for many businessman from Europe and developed countries. Every week you read of businessman being kidnapped and held for ransom in many third world countries. Clearly, kidnapping would not be an issue in South Africa, but carjacking, robbery, and for women, rape are major issues for travelers to south Africa. They are pressing problems that affect the national psyche and need to be addressed by the government.

I think the social issues are complicated and at their root is the disparity in wealth that exists in this two tiered society. Coupled with the anger felt by the black population from being treated as second class citizens for over 100 years you have a difficult situation to resolve. Mandela did a great job in his tenure as President to help the country make the transfer from aparteid to a democracy. However, not everything can be righted overnight or over the course of less than a decade, remember it has only been since 1994, that South Africa held their first true democratic election. It could also be argued the government does not have the economic resources available to effect the changes that would decrease unemployment, the income gap between poor and rich, increase economic opportunities and lower crime rates.

The real tragedy of South Africa is that the end of aparteid, saw the surfacing of long repressed evils that had been kept in check by the brutal white government policies. No longer do you have white versus black, now you also have violence and problems between the native tribes. Therefore, on the one hand,it would seem the world cup could help unify the country, on the other hand divisions run so deep, that in many respects a spectacle like the world cup will only serve to amplify the differences between the races and the tribes.

[prk166]

The bottom line: Can Africa host the WC in 2010? Probably not. Does it deserve to? Absolutely!


Deserve to on what grounds? Does a place just deserve to host it because they haven't? Oceania's never hosted the World Cup before, too. So what makes Africa more deserving? They have more people? We feel sorry for them? What else could it be? They do NOT have the infrastructure nor does the WEALTH exist to build infrastructure very quickly. Could these countries host the W in the future? I hope they do. The question at hand is whether or not they can host the WC in 2010. I have a hard time seeing any country turning things around in time for that. Maybe South Africa will be about to sort out some issues in time for 2014. But I don't see them or anyone else being able to put forth a bid in a few years that will not be heavily relying on empathy.

[CUS]

Originally posted by gfhh
I'm so sorry to see all the ignorant people afraid of the idea of going to Africa. There's no doubt that most of Africa has problems, big problems, and that the almost every country on the continent couldn't even think of holding a U12 regional event let alone the World Cup but there are at least a couple of legitimate choices to host, if not in 2010 than 2014 or 2018. Certainly Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and South Africa. Perhaps if things could improve drastically, even Nigeria or Kenya could host sometime down the line.

From the US State Department http://travel.state.gov/safrica.html we have these gems:


SAFETY AND SECURITY: Political violence has significantly decreased in most areas of South Africa since the establishment of a democratically-elected government in May 1994. Areas most frequented by tourists, such as major hotels, game parks, and beaches, have generally been unaffected by political violence. Although foreigners have not been specifically targeted, travelers are encouraged to be vigilant and avoid any large gathering.



CRIME: Although the vast majority of visitors complete their travels in South Africa without incident, visitors should be aware that criminal activity, sometimes violent, occurs on a routine basis. Crime in South Africa is perceived to be a significant threat to the country's overall stability and to the welfare of its citizens. Criminal activity, such as assault and armed robbery, is particularly high in areas surrounding many hotels and public transportation centers, especially in major cities. American citizens should exercise particular caution in these areas. Notwithstanding government anti-crime efforts, violent crimes such as carjackings, muggings, "smash and grab" attacks on vehicles and other incidents are regularly reported by visitors and resident Americans.
...
South Africa has a very high incidence of rape. Foreigners are not specifically targeted, although foreigners have been raped on rare occasions.
...
Travelers may also wish to consider avoiding local commuter and metro trains, especially between Johannesburg and Pretoria because a number of American passengers have been the subjects of muggings and violent attacks. In the Western Cape, police resources have been strained by continuing gang conflicts and vigilante violence in the townships near Cape Town. Travelers should use extreme caution when traveling in, to, or through affected areas.


TRAFFIC SAFETY AND ROAD CONDITIONS: While in a foreign country, U.S. citizens may encounter road conditions that differ significantly from those in the United States. The information below concerning South Africa is provided for general reference only, and it may not be totally accurate in a particular location or circumstance.

Safety of Public Transportation: Poor
Urban Road Conditions/Maintenance: Good
Rural Road Conditions/Maintenance: Poor
Availability of Roadside Assistance: Good

[Thomas Flannigan]

I have been avoiding BigSoccer for the most part and will continue to do so for the time being, but I thought I could add something here. I hitch-hiked across South Africa alone, and hitch-hiked across Kenya alone. That was years ago and I would never do that now. I have also been to Morocco twice, Egypt twice, and visited Tunisia 18 months ago.
Do you have any idea of how bad the crime is in South Africa? The Carlton Center is the tallest building in Africa, 50 stories high, in Jo'berg. It is is good condition but it is boarded up and shut down. Crime put it under. Secretaries were getting raped in the elevators and the lobby, messengers were being murdered in the hallways. A million women and children are raped every year in South Africa, and you can't walk down the street in daylight in some big cities without getting robbed or murdered. Believe me; I was robbed at knifepoint in Nairobi and still have the scar to show for it. I was robbed in South Africa too. Nothing against the people; I still went back to Kenya for my honeymoon because my wife insisted on it, and sure enough, I got robbed again. I grew up on the South Side of Chicago and went to high school in an all black neighborhood and never had any trouble. The countries we are talking about are out of control and dangerous. I have visited safe countries in black Africa (Eritrea, Burkina Faso) but they are tiny nations with almost no infrastructure or people who can afford the tickets.
The famous Blue Train does not even stop in Jo'berg anymore; it arrives in Pretoria under armed guard. South Africans, white and black, would love to host the Cup, but they know it is insane to even contemplate it; the country is too dangerous and is likely to get much worse.
If they put the Cup there they should make the body bag the mascot for the 100,000 people raped or murdered during the Cup.
In the summer the afternoon temperature in Tunisia and Egypt can be 115 degrees, and between 140 and 160 on the field. Do you really think you can play the World Cup in such heat? It has to be in the summer because the European leagues dictate the schedule as they should. That is where the soccer money and power is. That is why good African players go to Europe to play.
How about the fans? The locals can't afford the tickets so the stadiums will be empty.
Morocco would be OK, if it HAS to be Africa, but someone else has to pay for it. Africa did not pay one dime for TV coverage of this World Cup; it was paid for by other FIFA members. If FIFA wants to tax its members 4 billion dollars to give to Morocco, and have half the seats empty on TV, they can probably pull it off. It is hot as hell in Morocco too and crime is a problem but I think it can be done, if someone else pays for it.
If it has to be Africa pick Morocco but be ready for trouble. Why not put it in a place that has the infrastructure and fans who can pay for the thing? Someone has to pay for it you know and that means selling 3 million tickets, mostly for games involving nations the locals could not care less about.
Tom in Chicago

[gfhh]

With all due respect Thomas you make it seem like every man woman and child in Africa, and every person that visits Africa can expect to be raped and/or murdered. While crime, particularly violent crime against people, is a MAJOR problem in parts of Africa it's these sorts of statements that breed ignorance about Africa.

Look, because of a number of reasons--lack of money, crime, corruption, heat, political unrest, etc--the continent of Africa will probably not be hosting the World Cup in 2010. What I'd like to see is a bit of a movement toward the idea of an African country hosting the World Cup sometime in the future. I'd like to see people get it out of their heads that it CAN"T happen.

Also, when I say an African country deserves to host the World Cup, I mean that they deserve to as much as another country in any other populated continent. Ocieana deserves to host a World Cup, South America deserves to host a World Cup, etc, etc.

What I hate seeing is everyone dismiss the entire continent of Africa as a giant seething, cesspool of crime, and incompetence and that NO country on the continent could ever even think of hosting such an "important" world event as the World Cup.