What happened to Clint Dempsey's grit?

[superdave]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112523&highlight=Clint

Here's the thread from when Clint burst onto the scene as an MLS rookie. At the time, injuries forced New England to play Shalrie Joseph as a central defender, and Clint played defensive midfield behind A-Mid Jose Cancela. Look at the players that Clint was being compared to. Those guys were not "luxury" players, floating mids with almost no defensive responsibilities, which is what Clint is now. And I wonder, what happened to THAT Clint?

The thing is, he obviously had the ability at one time. He had the skills and the physical ability and the attitude to make tackles and win balls. And then he just lost it.

And if he could get back to THIS Clint, his career prospects would brighten considerably. At Fulham, he's considered a winger, but that's not really his natural position, his dribbling skills are more suited to be used in the middle of the field in tight spaces, rather than, Beasley-like, to blow by someone out wide. Clint is more Freddy than Beasley, I guess. So Clint sits.

With the Nats, it seems like the US' best formation right now is a 4-4-1-1, with Landon behind a striker, and with a couple of 2-ways anchoring the center of the field. Clark and Benny, or maybe in 2010, Bradley and Benny. The thing is, Clint has the capability to be the Benny in that kind of pairing, and while he's not as good a passer of the ball as Benny, he does bring alot of other things to the table. As it is, he's competing with Landon (and maybe soon, Freddy) to play behind the striker, and he's not as good as Landon. Since the US has no quality, natural right wing, Clint and Landon have both gotten time there. Further, against weak opponents, Clint can play as a striker in front of a midfield of Landon and Clark or Bradley. But neither role really elevates Clint (or the US for that matter) to the level his talent would dictate.

Maybe I'm too hard on Clint because he's "my" guy. I dunno. But I see the drift in Clint's club and international career as a self-inflicted problem. And I wonder if anyone knows how it happened. Maybe Nicol tapped something in Clint that nobody else can. Or maybe Clint just "fronted" (gotta get some rap talk in a thread about Clint) defensive chops to get into the lineup, and "forgot" how to do that once he was an established player. But I'll tell ya, he needs to remember that stuff pretty quick if he's going to find a place with Fulham. And if the US develops a true right wing, or Bradley decides to revert to Bruce's formula of one wide player being a true wing (Beasely or Convey) and one having a free role (Earnie then, Clint or Landon now), then Clint's international career is going to stall. At best, Clint will be cover at right wing.

[TimB4Last]

Do we really need another Clint Dempsey thread? Your other one is barely three years old. Don't overdo it, please.*

I don't know the answer to your question, but Roy Keane (thinks he) does.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml;jsessionid=PRFNIPVUABN31QFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/sport/2007/08/15/sfnfro115.xml

....

"Priorities have changed in footballers and they're being dictated to by their wives and girlfriends - there's no getting away from that," Keane, the Sunderland manager, said. "This idea of the women running the show concerns me and worries me but it shouldn't because the players we're talking about are soft.

"I could name three or four big players now and clearly their wives are running their lives. They're stood there doing these photo shoots and they might say 'I'm not comfortable doing it'. Well, don't do it then. They're getting dragged into it because of their partners. These so-called big stars, the ones people are supposed to be looking up to, they're weak, they're soft."

....

**********

I'm not comfortable saying anything more ...

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* :D

[HouseHead78]

Going to Europe makes ya soft, you know ;)

Well I think you're spot on, that he's losing his luster and he doesn't really have a role right now. For club or country.

I think he has been poor overall for the NT this year so far. No really exceptional plays, a few real bad games in the Gold Cup including a no-show in the final. He's been ineffective for whatever reason.

I personally think that after his '06 and getting his Euro contract, he thought he was on easy street. Lost his hunger, whatever. He's having a wake up call right now, I hope.

He used to have this reputation as a guy that brings it every game. Well I think that has been proved false and he needs to get it together in order to be an impact player. He's not so good that the nats just HAVE to call him in every time (like another player who shall remain nameless and has been accused of going soft).

[geordienation]

Do we really need another Clint Dempsey thread? Your other one is barely three years old. Don't overdo it, please.*

I don't know the answer to your question, but Roy Keane (thinks he) does.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml;jsessionid=PRFNIPVUABN31QFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/sport/2007/08/15/sfnfro115.xml

....

"Priorities have changed in footballers and they're being dictated to by their wives and girlfriends - there's no getting away from that," Keane, the Sunderland manager, said. "This idea of the women running the show concerns me and worries me but it shouldn't because the players we're talking about are soft.

"I could name three or four big players now and clearly their wives are running their lives. They're stood there doing these photo shoots and they might say 'I'm not comfortable doing it'. Well, don't do it then. They're getting dragged into it because of their partners. These so-called big stars, the ones people are supposed to be looking up to, they're weak, they're soft."

....

**********

I'm not comfortable saying anything more ...

----------

* :D



Roy Keane is bitching because players don't want to play in Sunderland.

[socmanq]

I agree with all the above. I have watched the two Fulham games, and I do not feel he brings anything into the game. Yesterday while watching Fulham/Bolton, I thought that Clint coming off the bench added nothing to the game. He barely gets into it, although he had a few more minutes on Sunday than he did yesterday.

If he is not an impact player off the bench, and is not good enough, in the coach's estimation, to start the game, then where is he in the scheme of things?

Hopefully, he realizes this sooner than later...maybe McBride should teach him a thing or two about work rate. Having said all of this, it's wonderful that McBride has been named captain, and its a great sight to see three Americans on the field at the same time.

[TimB4Last]

Roy Keane is bitching because players' 'wags' don't want them to play in Sunderland.

fyp

Now, I'm not agreeing with Keane - that was an attempt at humor - or saying that Dempsey is soft, but the last 12 months or so have been a complicated, transitional period - WC, battle with MLS, injured ankle, transfer in {EPL} midseason, relocation, non-starting role, marriage* - and certain changes in his game/attitude are evident.

I would call particular attention to the difficulty inherent in 1) joining an established team in midseason; and 2) trying to prove your worth in a few minutes/game. Dempsey's fitness level has always been one of his strengths, but that is much more valuable over 90 minutes than in just 10-15 minutes as a sub.

I had higher hopes for this season, and I'm pretty sure that Dempsey did too. Let's see if he has the grit to put it all together. It's a long season and he'll have plenty of opportunities to do so.

----------

* Didn't I read that Dempsey was getting/had gotten married this summer? If not, we'll have to look elsewhere for an explanation. ;)

[Mr Martin]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112523&highlight=Clint

Here's the thread from when Clint burst onto the scene as an MLS rookie. At the time, injuries forced New England to play Shalrie Joseph as a central defender, and Clint played defensive midfield behind A-Mid Jose Cancela. Look at the players that Clint was being compared to. Those guys were not "luxury" players, floating mids with almost no defensive responsibilities, which is what Clint is now. And I wonder, what happened to THAT Clint?

The thing is, he obviously had the ability at one time. He had the skills and the physical ability and the attitude to make tackles and win balls. And then he just lost it.

And if he could get back to THIS Clint, his career prospects would brighten considerably. At Fulham, he's considered a winger, but that's not really his natural position, his dribbling skills are more suited to be used in the middle of the field in tight spaces, rather than, Beasley-like, to blow by someone out wide. Clint is more Freddy than Beasley, I guess. So Clint sits.

With the Nats, it seems like the US' best formation right now is a 4-4-1-1, with Landon behind a striker, and with a couple of 2-ways anchoring the center of the field. Clark and Benny, or maybe in 2010, Bradley and Benny. The thing is, Clint has the capability to be the Benny in that kind of pairing, and while he's not as good a passer of the ball as Benny, he does bring alot of other things to the table. As it is, he's competing with Landon (and maybe soon, Freddy) to play behind the striker, and he's not as good as Landon. Since the US has no quality, natural right wing, Clint and Landon have both gotten time there. Further, against weak opponents, Clint can play as a striker in front of a midfield of Landon and Clark or Bradley. But neither role really elevates Clint (or the US for that matter) to the level his talent would dictate.

Maybe I'm too hard on Clint because he's "my" guy. I dunno. But I see the drift in Clint's club and international career as a self-inflicted problem. And I wonder if anyone knows how it happened. Maybe Nicol tapped something in Clint that nobody else can. Or maybe Clint just "fronted" (gotta get some rap talk in a thread about Clint) defensive chops to get into the lineup, and "forgot" how to do that once he was an established player. But I'll tell ya, he needs to remember that stuff pretty quick if he's going to find a place with Fulham. And if the US develops a true right wing, or Bradley decides to revert to Bruce's formula of one wide player being a true wing (Beasely or Convey) and one having a free role (Earnie then, Clint or Landon now), then Clint's international career is going to stall. At best, Clint will be cover at right wing.

Good post.

Bold and italics added to the quote to highlight a point.

Note that Bob Bradley is definitely looking for that right wing. That's surely why Zizzo is getting a look heading into the Sweden friendly. Bradley would love to find the other bookend on the right to match Beasley (and Convey) on the left. Finding the righty-Beasley would make his dual central mid (some combo of Feilhaber, Clark, Bradley, and Mastro) style work better. He is at least 2-deep at three of the four regular midfield roles, with right wing/mid the open spot that doesn't quite suit Dempsey.

If Dempsey could change is current style, he could maybe push Mastro for a central role. Maybe. Otherwise, he'll become a utility guy behind the Donovan (and Adu?) withdrawn forward role, behind Ching (and Altidore?) at striker, and Bradley's yet-to-be-discovered right wing (Zizzo?). Such a utility role can be valuable, but surely not what people were thinking for Dempsey the last few years.

[TimB4Last]

Posted a short while ago on the YA board ...

Big feature article on Clint Dempsey on FulhamFC.com today...

http://www.fulhamfc.com/Club/News/NewsArticles/2007/August/DempseytoDeliver.aspx

....

It seems like an age since you scored that all-important goal against Liverpool, how has your summer been?

Hectic! It’s been good but there has been a lot to fit in. I got the chance to play with the national team and win the Gold Cup. We’ve had a pretty busy schedule with Fulham, friendlies and a lot of training as well as our trip out to Hong Kong. On top of all that I got married, so I had a lot of things to do to help prepare for that.

....

[IndividualEleven]

He's gritty but not a naturally physical player a ballwinning, tackling type. Dempsey grew up idolizing Maradona and admiring the South American game.

The player you see today reflects this.

I watched the Fulham-Arsenal game. Dempsey created two prime scoring opportunities. He slotted a delicate diagonal shot passed the goal keeper that just went wide. If someone had running far post that would have been an easy tap in. In the chance he one a header that in the box that almost resulted in an own goal. Again there was no Fulham player to clean up.

Dempsey is an oppurtunistic player who brings flair, dribbling, and a nose for goal to the game. He's not a high-energy, superhuman workrate type of player. Postyers need to get over this.

[DoctorD]

JohnR once quoted a remark he overheard from an ODP coach to the effect of "we don't want Zidanes, we want Heyduks". Clint is becoming justification for that remark. He looks like a guy who grew up learning slick moves and enjoying to use them to beat the opposition.

Except at this level those moves don't work anymore and he has little to fall back on.

[IndividualEleven]

Deuce has goals against Poland, Liverpool, England, andd Ghana. I'd say his moves are still working.

[tomwilhelm]

JohnR once quoted a remark he overheard from an ODP coach to the effect of "we don't want Zidanes, we want Heyduks". Clint is becoming justification for that remark. He looks like a guy who grew up learning slick moves and enjoying to use them to beat the opposition.

Except at this level those moves don't work anymore and he has little to fall back on.

Either that or you're all just bored and looking for something to talk about during the late summer lull. Would you at least give the guy a few games to continue to adjust to the EPL and regain form from the insane summer he just had?

[KALM]

JohnR once quoted a remark he overheard from an ODP coach to the effect of "we don't want Zidanes, we want Heyduks". Clint is becoming justification for that remark. He looks like a guy who grew up learning slick moves and enjoying to use them to beat the opposition.

Except at this level those moves don't work anymore and he has little to fall back on.
I wouldn't say that those moves don't work anymore. During the match against Arsenal at the end of last season, Dempsey consistently beat his marker in the half an hour or so he was on the field, with the very same moves that worked in MLS. Even against Italy, his moves proved as effective as those of almost anyone else in the tournament who went up against the World Champions, which is to say he drew a few fouls and got off a threatening shot and cross or two in tight coverage.

True, he may not be able to be a luxury player for a team like Fulham, and that also has a lot to do with the style of soccer that Fulham plays, but during the preseason many (non-Americans) on the Fulham messageboard thought he was one of the most skillful players on the team and that he would be a very valuable part of their upcoming season. Their tune has changed a bit since the opening fixture, but I'd still give him a few more games before we start writing him off completely at that level.

[TimB4Last]

Either that or you're all just bored and looking for something to talk about during the late summer lull. Would you at least give the guy a few games to continue to adjust to the EPL and regain form from the insane summer he just had?

I wouldn't say that those moves don't work anymore. During the match against Arsenal at the end of last season, Dempsey consistently beat his marker in the half an hour or so he was on the field, with the very same moves that worked in MLS. Even against Italy, his moves proved as effective as those of almost anyone else in the tournament who went up against the World Champions, which is to say he drew a few fouls and got off a threatening shot and cross or two in tight coverage.

True, he may not be able to be a luxury player for a team like Fulham, and that also has a lot to do with the style of soccer that Fulham plays, but during the preseason many (non-Americans) on the Fulham messageboard thought he was one of the most skillful players on the team and that he would be a very valuable part of their upcoming season. Their tune has changed a bit since the opening fixture, but I'd still give him a few more games before we start writing him off completely at that level.

Let me remind you that the BS ToS are clear as they pertain to writing a player off completely:

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

So, a few (more) games it is, and then we're writing him off completely and moving on. Sorry!

[Aaryque]

JohnR once quoted a remark he overheard from an ODP coach to the effect of "we don't want Zidanes, we want Heyduks".

Whoever said that should have been immediately drawn and quartered, tarred and feathered, and any other medieval two act torture scheme possible. Hejduk is a dime a dozen (okay, maybe a quarter a dozen), whereas Zidane is a once-a-generation superstar.

Maybe this should be a thread unto itself, but I wonder if it's a particularly American trait to value work rate over skill.

[SamsArmySam]

If Dempsey could change is current style, he could maybe push Mastro for a central role. Maybe. Otherwise, he'll become a utility guy behind the Donovan (and Adu?) withdrawn forward role, behind Ching (and Altidore?) at striker, and Bradley's yet-to-be-discovered right wing (Zizzo?). Such a utility role can be valuable, but surely not what people were thinking for Dempsey the last few years.
If things play out this way, Dempsey can't find a starting 11 role with the US, and he ends up being our "utility guy"...

Things will be very good indeed.

[diablodelsol]

All of his aggression was transferred from his fist to Joey Franchino's jaw.

[Adam Zebrowski]

maybe the problem is fulham and the way fulham plays...

certain players are BAD ftis for certain teams, and can't we name one argentine who went to epl and bombed out, only to arise from the dead when he got to spain...

style is key....

and dempsey has talent....and needs to use...

perhaps it's like adu at rsl....where's the motivation....

clint needs to get out of epl, to spain to play...

that fits his game

[rolfefan1717]

it's amazing that one of the nats best players is a sub for one of the premiership's bottom feeders. that reality speaks for the poor state of america's development of quality players. we seem to be able to produce countless hustle, hard-nosed, athletic players but few players with the touch, skill, and mental fortitude to cut it abroad.

[Tonerl]

Whoever said that should have been immediately drawn and quartered, tarred and feathered, and any other medieval two act torture scheme possible. Hejduk is a dime a dozen (okay, maybe a quarter a dozen), whereas Zidane is a once-a-generation superstar.

Maybe this should be a thread unto itself, but I wonder if it's a particularly American trait to value work rate over skill.

I would say it's also a dominant characteristic of many English soccer fans. In fact, if I had to stereotype, I'd say English fans are even more likely to do so than are Americans.