"Champions" League

[barroldinho]

Right now in Europe the new domestic season's are getting started, but I'd like to go back a little, to May and the Champions League final. The fact that AC Milan are champions of Europe doesn't sit too awkwardly with me...but maybe it should. Milan were not Champions of Italy. In fact, they started the season on negative points after the big match-rigging scandal that saw Juventus relegated. But then again, Milan are regular contenders for the Scudetto. Their opponents in the Final, Liverpool have not won an English domestic title in about 17 years. They have however, been in two of the last three Champions League finals, actually winning it the first time. This does not sit well with me. This is because I feel strongly that the European Cup was invented precisely to determine the best team in Europe. Liverpool are definitely not that team.

I guess I'm a little hypocritical. As a Manchester United fan, I was delirious about the 1999 victory. To me, winning that trophy made us Europe's premier team. Of course, we too won the European Cup that year without being Premier League champs. Having said that, the fact that we had achieved the treble by winning that trophy made our position at the top of the European pile somewhat more valid. It was conceivable that we were, at least arguably the best team in Europe at the time and certainly one of the best. How can Liverpool, who have not realistically challenged for the Premier League title in well over a decade be even in contention? They clearly punch above their weight in Europe, akin to a lower league team causing a shock in the FA Cup. Surely this signifies that, with all due respect to Liverpool who certainly did an excellent job in reaching both finals, that the format does not significantly ensure that the best team wins. I'll admit that when they first changed the format of the Champions League, I was impressed by the quality of teams in the initial group stage, but by having teams who finish third and fourth qualifying, we are making it so you don't even have to necessarily mount a domestic challenge to win Europe's premier prize.

I personally think that the qualification criteria should be based more on the closest runners up in Europes stronger leagues, rather than by pure positioning. Or failing that, go back to simply qualifying champions and having the UEFA Cup returning to it's previous, much stronger format.

I also think that they should reintroduce the second group stage, but do so at the last eight. This would make for two very strong groups, which would take very strong performances to win. The top team from each group could then go into the final, making for a great showcase spectacle featuring two deserving potential Champions of Europe.

Thoughts?

[scaryice]

Second group stage was bad, too many games and not enough drama.

[Rig1964]

I am very much of the opinion that the Champion's League/European Cup should be for the domestic league champions only.
Problem is that wouldn't raise nearly so much money, and in case anyone hasn't heard, football at that level isn't about proving which team is best, it's about money.

[leg_breaker]

Only allowing champions in only really works when each league is of a similar standard. In a situation where mid-table teams in some leagues are better than the champions of most European countries, you need several teams each from the top leagues to make a valid tournament.

[Templinho]

I feel strongly that the European Cup was invented precisely to determine the best team in Europe. Liverpool are definitely not that team... They clearly punch above their weight in Europe, akin to a lower league team causing a shock in the FA Cup.Rubbish. Let's put this into perspective, please. Liverpool have consistently beaten the best sides in Europe in recent seasons. What these victories over the likes of Juventus and Chelsea, Milan and Barcelona prove is that, on any given day, Liverpool are more than a match for these sides. The fact is, we haven't had the squad to go the distance in the Premier League for some time, but when clubs go head-to-head in a one-off encounter at Europe's top table, Liverpool are certainly worthy of being counted among the best....go back to simply qualifying champions.If this happened, there would be uproar from clubs and fans alike. This is the surest way to cause a breakaway European Super League.I also think that they should reintroduce the second group stage.Scaryice summed it up, too many games and not enough drama. One group stage is enough. I'm happy with the format as is. Though, if Platini gets his way, you will see a much weaker competition in the not too distant future.

[barroldinho]

Rubbish. Let's put this into perspective, please. Liverpool have consistently beaten the best sides in Europe in recent seasons. What these victories over the likes of Juventus and Chelsea, Milan and Barcelona prove is that, on any given day, Liverpool are more than a match for these sides.

On any given day any team can beat anybody. Hence my FA Cup example. Millwall made the FA Cup final a few years back - does that make them more than a match for anybody in the country? Certainly not. You can't say that a team who can't mount a decent challenge for Premier League is truly better than teams who are currently competing for and winning their respective domestic leagues.


If this happened, there would be uproar from clubs and fans alike.

I certainly don't think it would be true of the fans. Most of the reaction when they first expanded the European Cup to include runners up was negative. People have just come to accept that this is the way it is now. Clubs would be more concerned, but then if they simply returned the UEFA Cup to it's previous format and thus restored some fo it's prestige, they could increase the prize money accordingly and the bigger clubs could be placated. As for the breakaway European Superleague, I personally think that it's pie in the sky. That would most certainly cause an uproar amongst fans, who wouldn't want to see their traditional leagues emalgamated into a super-elite.

As for the second group stage, I don't see that it would lack drama, especially with a final place at stake. Most domestic leagues, World Cup Qualifying groups and such end with high drama across multiple matches. And it would be only two more games than now, which is certainly achievable. I'd much rather see Europes best prove themselves in a short round-robin format, followed by a potentially mouth-watering final than a potential match between two domestic also-rans who happened to raise their game for a few of cup ties and who nobody truly believes are the best teams in Europe.

[barroldinho]

Only allowing champions in only really works when each league is of a similar standard. In a situation where mid-table teams in some leagues are better than the champions of most European countries, you need several teams each from the top leagues to make a valid tournament.

I understand that point, but I'm not sure that the method of qualification actually IS that valid.

How about using the coefficient rankings to determine who the top leagues are and then rank the qualifying clubs from the highest leagues according to their distance in points from the top spot? That way, if say La Liga ended up with Barca winning and Valencia, Real Madrid and Athletico all finishing within three or four points of them and Inter Milan won serie A by 18 points, the top four in Spain would qualify as legitimate contenders to their domestic league, whereas Italy might wind up with one or maybe two qualifiers because the nearest teams were not close enough to realistic be considered challengers. It's a bit of a complex idea and I probably haven't explained it too well, but I think such a plan would work better than the current system.

[cuppatea]

A Man Utd fan wanting to revert back to the old format after Liverpool reached another final and Man Utd won the league for the first time in 3 years... who would've thunk it? :rolleyes:

It won't happen, it shouldn't happen and if it did happen, the chances of the top teams in Europe forming a superleague would increase tenfold.

As for the comparisons with Millwall... They reached the FA Cup without beating any teams from the Premier league, which is hardly comparable with Liverpool beating the likes of Chelsea, Barcelona and Juventus over 2 legs.

Besides, if all you want to do is determine which is the best team in Europe, you'd be better off just cutting down the competition to 3 teams and have the champions of England, Spain and Italy play each other, because they're the only teams in contention for the title of "best in Europe".

[Templinho]

Millwall made the FA Cup final a few years back - does that make them more than a match for anybody in the country? Certainly not.You're comparing Millwall's standing in English football to that of Liverpool in Europe? Your analogy is inherently flawed.As for the breakaway European Superleague, I personally think that it's pie in the sky.A European Super League may be pie in the sky at present, but exclude many of Europe's superpowers from the Champions League and I can assure you the wheels would start turning.

[barroldinho]

You're comparing Millwall's standing in English football to that of Liverpool in Europe? Your analogy is inherently flawed.

Okay, not the most solid analogy in the world, but the point is that Liverpool can't genuinely consider themselves better than Milan, Barcelona or even Man U and Chelsea. If Liverpool were to play in a league containing all those teams, the most recent evidence suggests that they would finish lower than all of them. The fact that despite this they can become Champions of Europe surely devalues that title.

A European Super League may be pie in the sky at present, but exclude many of Europe's superpowers from the Champions League and I can assure you the wheels would start turning.

I doubt it. If it was going to happen, it would have already. It would be a logistical nightmare. How would you determine who qualifies? How would promotion and relegation work? How could teams simply break away and form their own league and maintain it without the cooperation and sanctioning of both international and domestic bodies? Would the average footy fan want to travel halfway across Europe for every away game? Would teams used to regular league success really want to put themselves in a division that might see them pushed down to mid-table or lower, potentially losing reputation and support in the process?

[barroldinho]

Besides, if all you want to do is determine which is the best team in Europe, you'd be better off just cutting down the competition to 3 teams and have the champions of England, Spain and Italy play each other, because they're the only teams in contention for the title of "best in Europe".

Not true. Off the top of my head Holland, France, Portugal and Germany all have clubs which right now have a decent chance of competing. There are also leagues and clubs elsewhere who have the potential to develop into contenders and who would probably be aided in this area by not being shuffled down the pecking order to make room for teams who probably weren't even in contention in their own domestic league.

And the Liverpool/Man U thing is circumstantial. The original intention of the competition was always to determine the "best in Europe". The very idea of a European Cup for clubs was first voiced in L'Equipe. It was a reaction to a newspaper report proclaiming Wolves as the best team in the world when they beat the phenomenal Honved side of the time in a friendly. The Liverpool thing just made me think about how far from that ethos we have moved, considering that they (despite showing occasional potential to do so) have not made a realistic challenge for the premiership in a very long time.

[cuppatea]

And you think PSV winning a knockout competition with a handful of good teams would make them the best side in Europe... ?

If you really want to determine the best in Europe, then why even bother inviting teams from Scotland, Russia, Sweden etc? Even the top teams from France, Germany, Portugal and Holland are helpess to prevent their best players from going to Spain, Italy and England, so why bother inviting them either? Like I said, you can just skip the pointless early rounds (unless you really enjoyed watching Juventus beat the champions of Iceland 11-0, or better yet, that oh-so-close, absolute thriller between Gothenbourg and the champions of Luxembourg, with the Swedes just edging it 17-0) and have the English, Spanish and Italian champions play each other.

It really doesn't bear thinking about though, because UEFA aren't going to voluntarily weaken the competition to the point where interest in it is massively reduced, leading to an equally large reduction in revenue (which is what will happen if teams like Barcelona and Milan get kicked out to make way for the champions of Malta and Northern Ireland).

[memnoch999]

Problem is that wouldn't raise nearly so much money, and in case anyone hasn't heard, football at that level isn't about proving which team is best, it's about money.

100% agreed.

Only allowing champions in only really works when each league is of a similar standard. In a situation where mid-table teams in some leagues are better than the champions of most European countries, you need several teams each from the top leagues to make a valid tournament.

Yep. Really.....I guess most fans prefer watching Liverpool-Milan instead of Liverpool-Tirana in the CL group stage.

Okay, not the most solid analogy in the world, but the point is that Liverpool can't genuinely consider themselves better than Milan, Barcelona or even Man U and Chelsea. If Liverpool were to play in a league containing all those teams, the most recent evidence suggests that they would finish lower than all of them. The fact that despite this they can become Champions of Europe surely devalues that title.

Well, performance (and attitude) in the CL is not always the same as in the domestic league. Example: Milan......the CL is "their tournament", they look that strong and convincing. But if you watch them playing in Seria A.....they look just bored and play a crappy soccer in many games during the season. Whereas with Inter it is the other way round.
That Inter won the Seria A does not mean they are the best Italian team.


I doubt it. If it was going to happen, it would have already. It would be a logistical nightmare. How would you determine who qualifies? How would promotion and relegation work? How could teams simply break away and form their own league and maintain it without the cooperation and sanctioning of both international and domestic bodies? Would the average footy fan want to travel halfway across Europe for every away game? Would teams used to regular league success really want to put themselves in a division that might see them pushed down to mid-table or lower, potentially losing reputation and support in the process?

One reason the UEFA opened the CL for more clubs of strong leagues was to prevent them from setting up their own Superleague. But talkings never ended. The so-called G14 (maybe more by now) are still discussing the pros and cons. Who would qualify? No qualification, they would play their own league (compared to US leagues) and would not necessarily need the UEFA. As they have the power and the fans behind them, the UEFA can't dictate them anything at all. If they change the CL to the old system......goodbye CL. :(

Regarding the fans traveling to away games in Europe.....in times of low cost carriers this wouldn't be a problem at all.

[leg_breaker]

Rubbish. Let's put this into perspective, please. Liverpool have consistently beaten the best sides in Europe in recent seasons. What these victories over the likes of Juventus and Chelsea, Milan and Barcelona prove is that, on any given day, Liverpool are more than a match for these sides.

You drew with Milan, and lost two years later. You drew with Chelsea, and drew with Barcelona. If you're a match for these sides, why are you not in title races?

[leg_breaker]

How about using the coefficient rankings to determine who the top leagues are and then rank the qualifying clubs from the highest leagues according to their distance in points from the top spot? That way, if say La Liga ended up with Barca winning and Valencia, Real Madrid and Athletico all finishing within three or four points of them and Inter Milan won serie A by 18 points, the top four in Spain would qualify as legitimate contenders to their domestic league, whereas Italy might wind up with one or maybe two qualifiers because the nearest teams were not close enough to realistic be considered challengers.

So Spain would get more places if the champion was inconsistent and kept throwing away places, but Italy would be punished for having a consistent champion?

You'd effectively be rewarding Spanish teams for sacking their manager every five minutes and then stumbling over the finish line on the last day.

[leg_breaker]

I think an exclusive G14 league with no way for any other teams to get in would fall foul of competition laws. Could a European Superleague operate with constant nine-figure fines?

[RichardL]

I doubt it. If it was going to happen, it would have already. It would be a logistical nightmare. How would you determine who qualifies?

money

How would promotion and relegation work?

it wouldn't. There wouldn't be any.

How could teams simply break away and form their own league and maintain it without the cooperation and sanctioning of both international and domestic bodies?

easily, because the clubs wouldn't care about UEFA sanctions as they wouldn't need the champions league any more.

FIFA could in theory ban the players from the world cup, but it's end up harming the world cup most of all.


Would the average footy fan want to travel halfway across Europe for every away game?

they probably wouldn't, and the clubs wouldn't care.


Would teams used to regular league success really want to put themselves in a division that might see them pushed down to mid-table or lower, potentially losing reputation and support in the process?
that is probably a big factor in why it hasn't happened, along with the fact that european football perhaps isn't quite the draw people thought it would be.

I think an exclusive G14 league with no way for any other teams to get in would fall foul of competition laws. Could a European Superleague operate with constant nine-figure fines?
Who could fine them? It'd be no more illegal than the other autonomous sports leagues out there, such as in rugby league.

[Purger]

100% agreed.
Yep. Really.....I guess most fans prefer watching Liverpool-Milan instead of Liverpool-Tirana in the CL group stage.

Yeap. really... Certainly for Liverpool fans. But what about Tirana fans. Isn't football more than just for Liverpool, ManU, Milan or Real fans? But sure, Inter, Barca, Chelsea etc are all so unlucky poor clubs, they should be provided with more money. Isn't introducing few clubs from same leagues playing in the CL the thing that started forming G-14? They smelled the money and they want it more. Even now this minority of privileged clubs are in sort of glass baloon. They get seeded in CL draws or direct qualified, they get all the money, getting even more rich and powerful , buying all the best players available and from season to season the gap between those and other smaller clubs and leagues is getting bigger and bigger.
Speaking as a "small club" fan I'm in sort of double feeling. When there's a talent or a good player coming on I'm so happy that we're building a good squad, but on the other hand I'm sad and angry at the same time coz he'll be leaving in a moment for some wealthy club and we'll be on the beginning again.
This "champions" league suck and if they want some G-14 superleague, let them have it. I won't be the one who'll be watching that and they'll be getting money from. I'd rather support my local neighbourhood club.

[ntn1987]

MU won the 99 Final by LUCK!

[memnoch999]

Yeap. really... Certainly for Liverpool fans. But what about Tirana fans. Isn't football more than just for Liverpool, ManU, Milan or Real fans? But sure, Inter, Barca, Chelsea etc are all so unlucky poor clubs, they should be provided with more money. Isn't introducing few clubs from same leagues playing in the CL the thing that started forming G-14? They smelled the money and they want it more. Even now this minority of privileged clubs are in sort of glass baloon. They get seeded in CL draws or direct qualified, they get all the money, getting even more rich and powerful , buying all the best players available and from season to season the gap between those and other smaller clubs and leagues is getting bigger and bigger.
Speaking as a "small club" fan I'm in sort of double feeling. When there's a talent or a good player coming on I'm so happy that we're building a good squad, but on the other hand I'm sad and angry at the same time coz he'll be leaving in a moment for some wealthy club and we'll be on the beginning again.
This "champions" league suck and if they want some G-14 superleague, let them have it. I won't be the one who'll be watching that and they'll be getting money from. I'd rather support my local neighbourhood club.

I was talking about fans in general (not fans of these 2 clubs). Let's assume a CL with only one participant per country, then the average group would look like this.

Liverpool
Lyon
Tirana
Trondheim

Do you really think anyone (apart from fans of those clubs) would be eager to watch these matches as everyone already knows pretty well which teams will promote to the playoffs......and that before the first game even started??? I look forward to the new CL season......but not to watch Liverpool destroy Tirana 5:0.
I just wanna say general interest for the group stage would suffer a lot!

Regarding G14: Yes, they are arrogant and greedy. But what would the CL be without them (Milan, Real, Liverpool, Ajax, Bayern, Barca, Juve, Inter, Porto, ManU, Dortmund, PSV, Valencia, Marseille, Arsenal, Leverkusen, PSG, Lyon.....don't know why they still call themselves G14 though :rolleyes:)?

A CL without those clubs (and without Chelsea as they would join the G14 very soon) would be worth nothing!!! It wouldn't even have UEFA-CUP quality anymore. Why should anyone (whose club is not involved) watch it anymore? To see 90 minutes of Intertoto Cup quality soccer? Not really.

No, IMO the actual CL is maybe not the best.....but an acceptable solution for both parties.....big and small clubs.