Fergie's dilemma with our kids (promoted reserves)

[Dark Savante]

I personally believe that the manager will send the kids out on loan despite his rhetoric to the contrary. But on the off-chance he does not, I fear he'll be messing with the development of not only those he keeps here, but our academy kids due their promotion to the reserves next term.

There is the issue of self-preservation with the boss. He never gets stung by the same things twice, and the undermanned, unprepared squad we had for the latter stages of last season will naturally make him wary of having just a decent sized squad. Logically a squad should be 25ish deep with a recognised 14 or so a few periphery men and then the emergency back-ups that tend to come from the reserve set-up. The problem the manager now has, however, is that all the kids I've been reporting to you about over the last 3 seasons are now at an age where they desperately need professional, highly competitive games to develop and actually become products who may kick-on to become Manchester United level players in the near future.

A lot of kids are in danger of being left in limbo if the manager becomes ultra cautious about depth; all of them are beyond reserve level footy now. Indeed, the likes of Simpson, Evans, Pique and Campbell have just returned to camp after extremely successful loans that has at least the first 3 valued at over £3m. The likes of Bardsley, Gibson, Martin and Eagles have shown that the reserves is a step below their current level, even if these 4 have more key areas of their games to work on than the first bracket of four do.

In the more elite bracket we had Rossi. A player of growing standing who was guaranteed 1st team activity next season choosing to move on because there were no guarantees of just how much PT he'd get in games that matter to every player and not just those happy to be at the club in any capacity. I should imagine that the fear of having to play reserve football in between getting chances with the 1st squad to maintain fitness was the final nail in the coffin for a lad who is celebrated in Italy and has tasted the delights of being a hero and talisman week in and out for a side desperately hoping and praying he could keep them in the top flight of a top 3 league in Europe.

The spread for loyalty is finely balanced here; the likes of Evans, Campbell and Simpson have dreamt at making it here since they were in their early teens, for them, the door will ultimately close when the manager says so - the likelihood of them choosing to leave out the front door is remote, but then you have Pique, who's dreams must surely revolve around Barcelona or at the very least a Spanish club, one would imagine. Digressing from the point a little, I meant to point out that these kids have a loyalty they could very well be used against them just to give us a glut of potential stand-ins who won't get many games outside of the CC's lowest rounds.

Of course for the likes of Evans, Simpson and Pique things are a little different. They are borderline level to getting proper chances in the first squad and so them being kept around is not only a necessity it is to be expected. But the rest of the players listed aren't ready for us, and most are in need of another full season out on loan before they are were the triumvirate mentioned are right now. Gibson, Martin and Campbell fall directly into this bracket and it'll not look or feel right if any of them are kept back as a mere ultra-precaution.

I won't pretend I don't expect Bardsley to be sold. If he stays here he can still work on his offensive game in the reserves. Hell, he could train on his own and still have room to develop that facet of his game all season. Eagles has always had technique as anyone who followed the reviews would know. It's not a surprise he has put away the goals he has the last few months (since the Everton game) but his bane is consistency and confidence. He won't get enough games here considering we will be looking to develop Nani, Anderson, Rooney and Ronaldo further as well as giving Hargreaves as much time as possible to gel with his team-mates. Eagles is so off the 1st team radar you'd need satellite technology to track him.

I don't think Fergie has a concerted plan for this level of player for once. It's not often so many come up and through at the same time - most are told by `9 they'll never be good enough to play for us and then the cycle is repeated with another set of academy kids, but with the crop that has come up now there are 8 players still here from an ultra successful reserve team, with the two most shining lights deciding to leave of their own accord. Feasibly we could have had 10 ex-reserves waiting around and maybe playing a lot of reserve games together this season if they aren't/weren't sent on loan or sold! That's not normal. Fergie cuts his lines perfectly with regard to the kids - he's never in a predicament as he has usually got their development clearly paved out waiting for them, but in this crop and given his precautionary stance, he may just break with his own stratagem and mess up not only those 8 kids waiting but a possible 8 kids coming up as well.

Just a thought.

[DutchFootballRulez]

Fergie's problem is he's being very coy with these youth players. You aren't Prem-ready until you play in the Prem and are deemed Prem-ready. He's not giving the players enough rope to hang themselves with.

I know he's under more pressure to win matches and drop even less points than ever but what's the point ? it's one thing to win, but its even sweeter when the players come from your own setup

[biro]

Hmm, last season we were crying out for these lads at the end of the season, now you suggest we let them go out again?

[DutchFootballRulez]

Hmm, last season we were crying out for these lads at the end of the season, now you suggest we let them go out again?

I think he's saying Fergie has no other choice. If he doesn't they are wasted money/talent, if he does, he has no cover when we have Giggs as Defensive midfield and Rooney at Goalkeeper with Quieroz playing forward.

[Vermont Red]

I think Gibson and Martin have the clearest cases of not really being needed for the first team. We are set with four central midfielders that range from very good to world class, plus there is O'Shea, not to mention Giggs getting minutes there. Gibson can be loaned out to a team in England without little likely detriment to the team.

Martin's path is a little clearer in that Giggs is playing less out wide, Park is hurt, Richardson was moved on. But, things get a little muddy as Fergie has shown a willingness to play Rooney and Fletcher out wide and that may be where Anderson begins. On balance, I think we can comfortably loan Martin without worry.

Campbell is the closest to the starting eleven, with Rooney and Tevez the only strikers that will be ready on opening day. I just don't see Campbell getting the call until he has proven himself in England.

With regards to the guys that are ready now, my only worry is that there are three for two spots. Assuming that Heinze moves on, I can see Simpson staying to back up at RB and, in a pinch, LB. That leaves Evans and Pique looking at 4th or 5th CB. Is either one good enough to dislodge Brown? I think one of them will have to be loaned.

[holytoledo]

I think Gibson and Martin have the clearest cases of not really being needed for the first team. We are set with four central midfielders that range from very good to world class, plus there is O'Shea, not to mention Giggs getting minutes there. Gibson can be loaned out to a team in England without little likely detriment to the team.

Agree. The Gibson to Sunderland idea with him under Keano is very appetizing but frankly anywhere in England where he gets minutes playing at least somewhat decent football would be fine by me.


Martin's path is a little clearer in that Giggs is playing less out wide, Park is hurt, Richardson was moved on. But, things get a little muddy as Fergie has shown a willingness to play Rooney and Fletcher out wide and that may be where Anderson begins. On balance, I think we can comfortably loan Martin without worry.

See this is what bothers me. Playing the likes of Rooney, Fletcher etc. out of their natural position in place of young players chomping at the bit for a chance. Instead of dropping Rooney to left wing, insert Martin. Instead of putting Wesley at RB (where he is awful going forward) let Simpson get a run. You get the point.

However, specifically with Martin, with Giggs, Ronaldo, Nani, Anderson we have effectively two sets of wide players plus Park when fit ahead of him anyway so I can't complain about him going on loan. Just not to Stoke please.


Campbell is the closest to the starting eleven, with Rooney and Tevez the only strikers that will be ready on opening day. I just don't see Campbell getting the call until he has proven himself in England.

Which is unfortunate, because of all the positions striker is the one I think would be the easiest for a youngster to slot in to get a trial by fire. I would love to see Campbell make some appearances since Saha and Ole are both out. Barring injury of course, what's the worst that can happen from a few substitute appearances? Once everyone is fit he could be sent off on loan if necessary or if he's made his mark kept along.


With regards to the guys that are ready now, my only worry is that there are three for two spots. Assuming that Heinze moves on, I can see Simpson staying to back up at RB and, in a pinch, LB. That leaves Evans and Pique looking at 4th or 5th CB. Is either one good enough to dislodge Brown? I think one of them will have to be loaned.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is loaned either, but you're right one needs to stay. I'd keep Evans and send Pique to a PL team where he will be able to play and be needed to play straight away.

[Vermont Red]

See this is what bothers me. Playing the likes of Rooney, Fletcher etc. out of their natural position in place of young players chomping at the bit for a chance. Instead of dropping Rooney to left wing, insert Martin. Instead of putting Wesley at RB (where he is awful going forward) let Simpson get a run. You get the point.

I don't think you'll be saying that Rooney is playing out of position this season when he lines up on the left. He won't be as good out there as at SS, but we won't always play with a SS. Also, there are tactical reasons for playing Fletcher or Hargreaves out wide in some matches, as they offer plenty that a player like Martin does not. I can't really defend Brown at RB other than to say that I love his no nonsense approach to playing defense and it will be worth seeing him out there against certain opponents.

[Dark Savante]

Hmm, last season we were crying out for these lads at the end of the season, now you suggest we let them go out again?
No, the ones that are viable should stay, those who are not (and that's more than half) should be loaned or sold.

Some are 100% ready for us now, the others have some ways to go.

I think he's saying Fergie has no other choice. If he doesn't they are wasted money/talent, if he does, he has no cover when we have Giggs as Defensive midfield and Rooney at Goalkeeper with Quieroz playing forward.

Yep, Sod's Law - we keep them all, and it's a sure thing we'll have no injuries and they'll get no proper PT.

- we send them on loan and we'll have an almighty injury crisis thatcould've been eased with the kids here.

In the meantime, they're all left in limbo with their development put on a backburner.

[Dark Savante]

PS. I meant to say 19 not 9... lol even Fergie's not that harsh!!

[Invincible]

This is another reason why the Prem need to come out of the Middle Ages and allow 7 subs. It gives us WAAAY more options. If we dont need to sub out players for injuries we'll be able to have 2 extra youngsters that could be subbed in at the 60 minute mark to get valuable experience.

[holytoledo]

I don't think you'll be saying that Rooney is playing out of position this season when he lines up on the left. He won't be as good out there as at SS, but we won't always play with a SS. Also, there are tactical reasons for playing Fletcher or Hargreaves out wide in some matches, as they offer plenty that a player like Martin does not. I can't really defend Brown at RB other than to say that I love his no nonsense approach to playing defense and it will be worth seeing him out there against certain opponents.

If we're playing Milan away I obviously wouldn't want to see Martin at LW instead of Rooney. That said we all know where Rooney is best and when we are playing in the league and moving him out wide because of squad issues instead of just slotting players into their natural positions it bothers me.

Don't get me wrong I love Wesley but he's awful offensively at RB and when we have a fully capable offensive RB in Simpson this year and still put the likes of Brown or to a lesser extent O'Shea there I will be bothered.

[Vermont Red]

This is another reason why the Prem need to come out of the Middle Ages and allow 7 subs.

Here's the reason I don't rate you. You get all your best ideas from Moaninho.

[Invincible]

Here's the reason I don't rate you. You get all your best ideas from Moaninho.
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9591/failureze3.gif

[holytoledo]

This is another reason why the Prem need to come out of the Middle Ages and allow 7 subs. It gives us WAAAY more options. If we dont need to sub out players for injuries we'll be able to have 2 extra youngsters that could be subbed in at the 60 minute mark to get valuable experience.

Yeah you're right.

[Vermont Red]

Another Mourinho clone.

[Dark Savante]

I think something else I should have mentioned in the opener I omitted.

The ages of the players (Anderson & Nani) we brought in this summer means they will play a lot of games either off the bench or whenever the manager feels he can sneak them in and allow them to feel out the surroundings without costing us points (mainly home games against teams hoping to get a point) that reduces any possible playing time our own kids, who are the same age as these two, would have gotten if they weren't purchased.

Just as Tevez would have stifled Rossi somewhat, a Nani is going to reduce a Martin and an Anderson stops an Eagles or Gibson from getting any development time that he himself needs.

It's a finely balanced act Fergie has got to manage there even without our kids in the picture.

[holytoledo]

Another Mourinho clone.

I was saying it before Mourinho made it gay.

[prymetyme]

This really is the predicament at a club like Manchester United. Let's be honest, there are thousands of serious footballers that would kill for a spot on our reserves side. We get loads of talent pouring into our reserves and youth academy. This IS a luxury. But it is also a bit of a burden. Ironically, a huge club like Manchester United, Barcelona, Chelsea, Madrid, Milan, Munich, and many others all struggle with this problem. They have to make their board, fans, (sometimes shareholders) happy. They HAVE to remain competitive. They HAVE to win trophies. In such a competitive and tough league like the Premier league, this means putting the best 11 out there every week. That being said, it is an extremely hard balance to try and give you're youngsters valuable playing time, while keeping the most competitive side on the pitch.

This is EXACTLY what happened to Rossi. DS said it perfectly when he talked about the four players (Simpson, Evans, Pique and Campbell) being stuck in limbo. Rossi could never breakthrough into first team matches because we always had to put our best out on the field, and while Rossi would have been one of the best in the future he needed to gain experience. We couldn't give as much as he wanted or needed to him. Regarding the other four coming back from such successful loans as they had naturally they expect first team playing time. As DS said the reserves squad is clearly a step down, and the first team (although it may be not as clear) is a step up for them.
It is extremely hard to give Jonny Evans playing time over Rio or Vidic. Although it has been done before. Chris Eagle's appearance at Everton gave him extreme amounts of confidence. That didn't just happen over night he needed large amounts of first team play to reach that moment. (He had 11 senior appearances from December 2006-May 2007) Now we are starting to see him a bit more and more, granted it is still pre-season but I can certainly see him getting more first team experience now that he has had the first breakthrough. He has established himself as a future Manchester United striker. I felt the same way I do about Eagles, about Craig Cathcart. Unfortunitly he had a major set back with his injury, but I think he can be resilient and rebound from that. He has to much talent to be overlooked. Although I would have said the same thing and more if this thread had been before Rossi had been sold.:( But for players who aren't able to make there breakthrough, what is their fate? It seems a bit harsh that they will be sold to a mid level club, and never truly shine like they could have under a better system. But Alas, that is how football works I suppose.

[Vermont Red]

I was saying it before Mourinho made it gay.

I really did laugh out loud.

[Rossi is the future]

Having wasted far too much time watching academy/youth cup/reserve games and being hugely annoyed at the sale of Rossi i think the situation is relatively simple if you stand back from it and not be too emotional.

Bardsley is not good enough for Villa and is certainly not good enough for us, can't cross and can't pick an intelligent pass up field, useless.

Simpson i like but is going to be 3/4 th choice at right and left back. We will hold on to him and unless disaster strikes he will get very few or no games for us. His development wll be stunted, expect a rethink and a loan at new year.

Pique, best distributor from CB i can remember seeing, lacking pace but a very promising player. Putting together comments from fergie about Evans and a relative lack of love for Pique i conclude Pique is significantly behind Evans in the pecking order. He will be retained till January but not used as he is probably 5th choice centre back. Expect a January loan/move after not getting near first team.

Evans could well be our 3rd choice CB, (Brown needed at RB, Heinze leaving and Silvestre LB cover and a liability). This should mean he will get the necessary minutes and establish himself. For me the only youth/reserve player with a really good chance of playing regularly and establishing himself this season.

I'll treat Eagles and Martin the same, definitely not room for both in the squad and if i was really honest with myself i would say no room for either. One to go on loan and one to remain and play a solitary coca-cola/ joke cup game. Both to leave the club before the start of next season.

Gibson has the ability but but like so many others will be looking at 5th/6th choice for his position. Should and will be sent out on loan, a premiership club or championship challenger playing every week would be ideal. One of the few players that will go on loan and still have a real chance of breaking in to the squad on his return. Tall, upright, good vision and shooting he must have a chance to be retained long term as an understudy to Carrick. Ability wise should eventually find himself above Oshea and Fletcher in the pecking order.

Campbell is a player i have watched score bucket loads of goals at under-17, under 19, reserve level and antwerp. Here's the scary bit he is a good player whereas Rossi was a great player and still that wasn't enough. He wont get any meaningful minutes but will eventually do well at mid to low premiership level after being sold next summer. A loan this season will be best for his development but whatever happens i don't think he has a career at Old Trafford horrible as that is to say.

So in summary Evans has the best chance of 'making it' this season, Simpson and Pique whilst talented are restricted by shear weight of numbers in their relative positions and it is probably a season too soon for Gibson. Campbell, Eagles and Martin will most likely never make it.

Obviously a rash of injuries or a sudden unexpected improvement could change things but i doubt it.

Do i need to change my name even if i think Rossi still is the future, just not for us?