Can we...

[prymetyme]

I've been debating to put this up, but here goes. (EDIT: sorry the table results are messed up, I typed it up on word and it won't change)


Can We….


Win Europe and still be in the running for the league? Sir Alex and the gang have made it public that he will be playing with Europe as the priority. Last year it was always on the back burner in our minds, and every week in the league we wanted our strongest team out, even against a relegation bounded team. That wasn’t to send a message; every game in the league can turn out badly if you are ill-prepared for it. Thinking back to one particular away match where we didn’t side our best 11 because of Europe, makes me wonder about what might happen this season.

The match @ Portsmouth on the 7th of April was in between two Champions League legs (both against Roma). The Lineup Ferguson put out was as follows:

--------------------------VDS------------------------
---------O’Shea—Brown---Rio—Heinze--------
---Fletcher—Carrick—Scholes—Richardson—
--------------Ronaldo----------Rooney------------

On our bench we had Evra, Giggs, Ole, and Smith.

We did have injuries for this match, namely Vidic, but Giggs and Evra weren’t in. Moving Ronaldo back onto a wing and having Smith played would have also been beneficial. Although that depends on how you feel about Fletcher. It was clear that Sir Alex was thinking about the looming Roma match, and that was his priority. This was a key time in the season when the table looked like this:
Games Played Points
Manchester United 31 78
Chelsea 31 72

We ended up loosing the match 1-2. After the Pompey match the table looked like this:
Games Played Points
Manchester United 32 78
Chelsea 32 75

This was obviously a key time in the season for us, and playing at Portsmouth Ferguson knew how dangerous it is to take things lightly there. That being said what happens when we encounter another situation like this, and Sir Alex has made it clear he wants to win Europe. Would he rest Ronaldo or Rooney in that case? What happens if we are 3 or 6 points behind Chelsea or Liverpool (god I hope not Liverpool) going into one of these types of situations? Is he prepared to sacrifice the league for the European campaign?

At that point in the season our squad was stretched, we had injuries. Injuries happen every year. This year we are a lot deeper, with the additions of Hargreaves, Nani, Anderson, and Tevez; hopefully when we field a weaker lineup we will be able to compensate what we are resting with the new talent we have brought in. But as the season goes on and players get tired, we will have more and more matches. I feel at some point Ferguson will have to make his priority obviously clear, and hope for the best in the league if that is his decision.
Will our performance in the league suffer this year because of our European desires? Our defense is thin, Neville is injured and aging, and Heinze could be gone if not by the end of August, then he could leave during January. Will we need to bring in another defender to deal with the strenuous schedule? We have a good band of strikers, and excellent depth in the midfield. But if it comes time to choose with the defense, what decision will Sir Alex make? Which would you choose: The Premier League or the Champions League?

[barthez4]

The League. 38 matches, week in, week out. So long as a non-United English team doesn't win it, it's a very, very, very big and esteemed ice cream sundae that I would like to eat, but not at the expense of the main course.

Ideally, we would win both. :)

[fadarico]

Nice thread there...
as Barthez said Ideally we will win them both, but I'd like to c the Champions league this yr lifted by Giggsy, I know the league is very important but we won it and we won it 9 times (since it was names Premier League) but we didn't win the CL that much...so I'd rather prefer the CL than the EPL....

But I know MU can make it treble this season we almost did it last season and hopfully we will do it this one

[dannytoone]

I want MUFC to win the CL this year, unless of course Benfica is a contender.

However, I think MU finally have the depth to compete for the CL and not sacrifice the league. United's second team alone can take on the entire bottem half of the table.

[barthez4]

I want MUFC to win the CL this year, unless of course Benfica is a contender.

However, I think MU finally have the depth to compete for the CL and not sacrifice the league. United's second team alone can take on the entire bottem half of the table.

I'd say that as "Big Money" is becoming more present in the league (all these rich takeovers), the league is getting a lot better. Look at Citeh, they look they might be a formidable rival now. Reading can beat a lot of teams and give big teams trouble, and I think that Coppell will have dealt with the loss of Sidwell and Reading will continue to do well. Tottenham have a very good team, Everton have a good team and a very good manager, Bolton (despite our trouncing them last year) put up a very good fight, Blackburn can be very troublesome, Newcastle may be pretty good this season, and so on. That's disregarding Sunderland, who will be runners-up behind us. :D

But our second team may be able to beat those teams on paper, but you have to realize that playing United is an event, not just a match, for smaller teams. They bring everything against us.

[Giggzy11]

Obviously it's a hard thing to debate if we can, but remember, we do have lots of depth and i think we are favorites to win the league and a cup in england, but Europe does scare me a bit. If Hargreaves stays healthy, we can definetly compete though, i think our problem last year against Milan was mainly in the midfield, we were way too over powered. Owen will help with that.

But, Nani, Anderson and Tevez, lack any kind of great European expierence. If Tevez does struggle in Europe or to adjust to our team, i don't think we can go far. Theres many great teams in Europe, Lyon, Barcelona, Madrid, Stuttgart, Inter and Milan to just name a few who have great players and great depth like we do.

I think it matters to what kind of impact Nani, Tevez and Anderson will have. There will be nights where we will need an offensive spark from somewhere because Ronaldo, Giggs and Rooney are shut down, and last year we didn't get it when we needed it most vs. Milan.

[haven]

I worry about the focus on winning the CL. Last time SAF tried that, he prematurely ended what still figures as his greatest team at Man Utd. Win the league and the CL will take care of itself. I don't want to see history repeated, here.

[GrodZilla]

Good post and some nice thoughts. I'd like to add some stuff though. Firstly the Pompey game, we dominated that game, had the most of the possesion and the best chances(in my mind anyway). That we did not win was because ít was just one of those days. The team was good enough, we just didn't score. Of course a better team might have had more luck.

I also think that our additions have been made with precisely this in mind. Resting players in the same positions this season would give us something like this...

-------------------------VDS------------------------
---------Brown—Evans---Rio—----Simpson--------
---Anderson—Hargreaves—---Scholes—---Nani —
--------------Tevez----------Rooney------------

Even tough the defense is not that much stronger all the other parts of the team are and the Defense is just going to get better.

If you look at a complete second string for all positions we get this team. A team that while I'm not completely happy with it is a I'd feel comfortable sending out against most sides.

---------------Kuzczak-----------
-----Brown--Evans--Pique--Silvestre
-----------Fletcher---Scholes-----
--Park-------Anderson--------Nani
-----------------Saha---------------

Bench: O'Shea, Simpson, Ole, Martin, Gibson

Now Scholes may or may not be second choice but in that case swap him for Giggs or Carrick and you stil have lost very little. last season it would have looked like this and that says it all really.

---------------Kuzczak-----------
----Brown--O'Shea--Silvestre--Heinze
-----------Fletcher---Eagles-----
--Park-------------------Richardson
---------Ole-----Smith----------

Bench: Heaton, Dong, Cathcart?

We have filled the obvious weaknesses in our squad and right now only GK can be regarded as weak. At both WB we lose some of our form at second choice but it is still acceptable. Things are looking bright if Nani and Anderson can settle. It'll probably take them at least 6 months to get into it. Probably more even if Anderson looked right at home at Doncaster.

[BusbyBabes]

Dont forget the element of luck that United never seem to have like Liverpool vs Chelsea when we ALL knew it did not cross the line. We never seem to have luck in the CL but at the same time United must tighten up the defence. If we have a great defence plus our awesome attacking prowess we could win it.

[GrodZilla]

Dont forget the element of luck that United never seem to have like Liverpool vs Chelsea when we ALL knew it did not cross the line. We never seem to have luck in the CL but at the same time United must tighten up the defence. If we have a great defence plus our awesome attacking prowess we could win it.

Can anyone say Barcelona 99'? Rooney's equalizer against Milan? But if you are constantly unlucky then it's not really luck is it? there is something else missing.... I think Hargreaves could be the missing piece even if Fletch did a great job in that role several times last season.

[Dark Savante]

Well written and thought out, prymetyme. I think you'll have to wait until Sep 1st for a proper answer though.

Despite Fergie's rhetoric about the squad and keeping all our kids etc, it shouldn't come as much of a surprise if many of them are sent back out on loan.

We also may bring in one or two more players ( a striker and a keeper) which could definitely give sway one direction or the other. I remember to do so, I'll post my thoguhts about it at that time.

[BusbyBabes]

Can anyone say Barcelona 99'? Rooney's equalizer against Milan? But if you are constantly unlucky then it's not really luck is it? there is something else missing.... I think Hargreaves could be the missing piece even if Fletch did a great job in that role several times last season.

Hargreaves will definately make a difference but Tevez in europe could do wonders..:p

[omarion1987]

the difference between united last season and united this season is options... fergie got it covered everywhere except maybe attack..

this season united have: tevez, nani, hargreaves, anderson, evans, ben foster, pique, simpson, dong, etc..... (-) smith, heinze?

given ur scenarios... if u put these players in... i think united will have no problems...

even if 4 of the 5 strickers united have get injured... u have ronaldo, giggs and anderson who can play as second/support strickers..

[sdotsom]

Agree with DS, I still think some of the younguns are gettin sent back out. It's an odd situation for a few of them - i.e. Lee Martin is conceivably our 3rd left winger, after Giggs and Nani (not counting Ronaldo) until Park returns. There's a possibility of a few games here and there, the chance to train with a proper squad, etc - Martin has also played SPL and Championship, but this is something else. Will he stay? Go? It seems very on the fence for me.

We have some nice options over last season, but are we REALLY that much better? Think about the defensive crisis we had last year, when Rio and Vida were both out for a bit in the spring. Yeah, we have Evans and Simpson and Pique - but would we really use them as starters in a CL match? No, we'd most likely use a mix of O'Shea, Silvestre, etc. again. I almost think we needed to chuck one of those old stalwarts (Brown, O'Shea, etc) and give the younguns a baptism of fire.

In the midfield, we've gained the most by far. Additions of Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, Eagles*, Martin* to what was just Scholes, Carrick, Fletch, Giggs, Ronaldo, and Park. Great depth there.

Up front is nice, mainly because Rooney and Tevez are sturdy and miss very few games. If one is out, Saha can hopefully step up, especially as fewer games this season means better fitness. If he's injured? We would see Giggs/Ronaldo pushed forward, or Solskjaer/Dong. Not ideal, but not bad, as Giggsy showed yesterday.

Do I think we can win the t*****? I can't say right now. We are in the best position to do so though, at least in the last 4, 5 years.

[sdotsom]

Every single person on Sky's football team has chosen us for the title.

[Stud83]

Every single person on Sky's football team has chosen us for the title.

IIRC all of them chose Chelsea last season...

[zippy85]

The old man has zero excuses left and has to deliver the european cup or be considered a failure

[barthez4]

The old man has zero excuses left and has to deliver the european cup or be considered a failure

You're... really... not a troll???

[doug1500]

i vote ignorance

[MUFC_BARLOW]

Every single person on Sky's football team has chosen us for the title.

I don't like skysports pundits (apart from andy gray who seems to compliment us alot).
I HATE Jamie Redknap - SO many excuses for chelsea aand praise for his rent boy cousine. Paul merson just knows f**k all about football. Last season they predicted us 4th...

BBC on the other hand talk alot of sense even though i dont like some of their pundits, they do talk sense.