university reform

[ilv2]

big news, perhaps for some, but the AN has passed the government's proposal to reform France's universities:

L'Assemblée nationale a adopté mercredi 25 juillet, le projet de loi de la ministre de l'enseignement supérieur, Valérie Pécresse, qui prévoit la généralisation de l'autonomie budgétaire et de gestion des ressources humaines à toutes les universités d'ici cinq ans. Le texte adopté par le Sénat le 12 juillet a cependant été légèrement modifié par les députés sans pour autant remettre en question l'esprit du projet de Mme Pécresse...

...Par ailleurs, contre l'avis de Valérie Pécresse, un amendement de Claude Goasguen (UMP), réservant la fonction de président d'université aux seuls enseignants-chercheurs, a été adopté à l'unanimité, barrant ainsi la voie à l'élection de non-universitaires.

Dès le début de l'examen du texte, l'opposition SRC (Socialiste, radical et citoyen) et GDR (Gauche démocrate et républicaine - PCF/Verts) avait protesté contre "les pouvoirs exorbitants des présidents d'université". Elle avait aussi demandé, en vain, des garde-fous sur le recrutement de contractuels "pour qu'ils ne se substituent pas aux enseignants-chercheurs statutaires".

text and article from Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3224,36-939204@51-917472,0.html)

it still needs to be examined by a commission composed of both deputies and senators, but it looks like it'll pass with no problem. Now, i'd be very interested in hearing some points of view. IIRC a while back, Pierre-Henri posted an essay by a PS member condemning all academic freedom and liberty in education. What impact will this reform have upon that stance, if any?

[Douai]

I read this on Le Monde recently. Interesting development.

[Pierre-Henri]

And yet ... we had so many "reforms" that we wonder if this one can work. French university knows (at least) one major reform per year. And yet, at the very end, it's always the same thing.

To give more power to the universities can only be a good thing. Today, the ministery decides nearly everything. The university can't recruit ; it can't give funds to lab A rather than to lab B ; it can't choose the cursus structure, the exam system or the basic requirements to pass ; it can't have specific research policies, and so on.

However, like all the other academic policies before it, this one doesn't take into consideration the major issue : le bac.

The reaction of the craziest leftists is easy to predict. As usual, they will use students to bring the mess into the country. Someone like Besancenot clearly said that he didn't care about ballot boxes, and that they will carry on the struggle vs evil forces of capitalist oppression. They still have plenty of influence on some campuses.

As for the PS, as usual, they'll try to get credit for the situation, by pouring gas on the flames. Even if people like Aschieri or Frackowiak aren't the sharpest tools in the shed*, they still rule at the PS. In other words, the PS will use to situation in order to pretend it's still alive.

Anyway, France doesn't care much about its universities. More or less, they have become a dump for poor people, where they wait a few year before unemployement. As long as the "Grandes Ecoles" are safe, any demonstration at Universities will be of little consequence. University is like some sort of political theatre set ; it's a place where the governement and the opposition let the poors play (and only play) at the revolution, while the important people send their children at the ENA, the ENS, HEC, Cambridge or Yale.

-------------
* understatement.

[blackjack]

Et à partir de hier, à cause de cette “réforme,” on fait la grève dans les universités françaises. A ma fac, l’université de Montpellier 3, l’assemblée générale des étudiants a pris la décision de bloquer la fac afin de protester la privatisation et les frais d’inscription qui deviennent de plus en plus important. En tant qu’étudiant étranger, j’aurais normalement le droit de continuer à travailler, mais on verra. Pendant quelques semaines je vais profiter de ne pas avoir de cours, mais je crois que ça pourrait être assez chiant au bout d’un mois.

[Pierre-Henri]

En tant qu’étudiant étranger, j’aurais normalement le droit de continuer à travailler, mais on verra. Pendant quelques semaines je vais profiter de ne pas avoir de cours, mais je crois que ça pourrait être assez chiant au bout d’un mois.

So, you have a taste of what the French academic life really is :
http://accel6.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/03/22/68/2005-09/mime-marceau-82-ans-cuba-la-havane-120905.jpg

A mascarade. A farce. A depressing drama during which everybody plays his part, with the same lines and the sames words as they always did. Have you seen the movie "Groudhog Day" ? That's France today. Especially university.

And the worst thing of all : these gawks really believe in what they're doing. Even some distinguished professors will suddenly fancy themselves as the Che Guevara and will jump on the barricades. They will talk about the revolution vs capitalism and give inspired speeches about the oppressive state(*). They'll march and sing song. They'll make silly "democratic" AG where the local idiotic loudmouth will have his moment of glory. They'll boo and cheer. The government will look stiff at first, and then, after a while, will capitulate. The success rate at the exams will magically bounce to the skies (**).

In short : they'll repeat all the mistakes that caused the failure, making things worse, which will lead to others riots in a few years, riots that will provoke another set of incredibly demagogic measures, that will worsen the situation, that will lead to other riots, and so on, and so on, and so on, until the end of times...

... or, until France is unable to pay anymore (many universities are already in a situation of nonpayment)...
... or until everybody has a Phd and there is no more diplomas to sell off...
... or until the thirdworldization is complete ...
... or until civil war.


-------------------------------
(*) Yes, they believe the State is oppressing them. However, as communists, they want more intervention by the State. Don't try to understand.
(**) the baccalauréat is at 85 %. What will they do when it'll reach 100% ? Give two diplomas to every student, in order to quiet them down ? A 200 % success rate ?

[Catel]

So, you have a taste of what the French academic life really is :
http://accel6.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/03/22/68/2005-09/mime-marceau-82-ans-cuba-la-havane-120905.jpg

A mascarade. A farce. A depressing drama during which everybody plays his part, with the same lines and the sames words as they always did. Have you seen the movie "Groudhog Day" ? That's France today. Especially university.

And the worst thing of all : these gawks really believe in what they're doing. Even some distinguished professors will suddenly fancy themselves as the Che Guevara and will jump on the barricades. They will talk about the revolution vs capitalism and give inspired speeches about the oppressive state(*). They'll march and sing song. They'll make silly "democratic" AG where the local idiotic loudmouth will have his moment of glory. They'll boo and cheer. The government will look stiff at first, and then, after a while, will capitulate. The success rate at the exams will magically bounce to the skies (**).

In short : they'll repeat all the mistakes that caused the failure, making things worse, which will lead to others riots in a few years, riots that will provoke another set of incredibly demagogic measures, that will worsen the situation, that will lead to other riots, and so on, and so on, and so on, until the end of times...

... or, until France is unable to pay anymore (many universities are already in a situation of nonpayment)...
... or until everybody has a Phd and there is no more diplomas to sell off...
... or until the thirdworldization is complete ...
... or until civil war.


-------------------------------
(*) Yes, they believe the State is oppressing them. However, as communists, they want more intervention by the State. Don't try to understand.
(**) the baccalauréat is at 85 %. What will they do when it'll reach 100% ? Give two diplomas to every student, in order to quiet them down ? A 200 % success rate ?
I couldn't more agree you.


I just created the term of "gaucho-fascistes" to point the """""democratic""""" system of AGs.


(in brief: it is a vote by hand, there are 1500 students, a half raise their hand to say "yes", the other half raise their hand to say "no" and 5 seconds after the leader says the "yes" won. Soviet Union is not dead !)

[Pierre-Henri]

(in brief: it is a vote by hand, there are 1500 students, a half raise their hand to say "yes", the other half raise their hand to say "no" and 5 seconds after the leader says the "yes" won. Soviet Union is not dead !)

Indeed. To use the crowd to control the crowd is the oldest trick of all.

As for the professors who play this silly game, I like to call them "anarcho-fonctionnaires".

They want job security, and they want the revolution. They hate the institution, but they want more security from the institution. As I said, they think they are oppressed by the State, but they want more State control. They want freedom, but they don't want more autonomy.

Since I don't want to start an academic war, I won't say that most of these researchers are social sciences specialists. I should not. So I won't say that a few lessons of classical rhetoric and formal logic would serve them greatly.

An old joke used to say that the most difficult exam in sociology was to fill in the application form.

It was once funny. Unfortunately, all fields are at the same level, now.

[Pierre-Henri]

Typical American University :
http://www.ville-colmar.fr/adv/imagesadv/jumel/princeton_01.jpg

Typical British University :
http://www.uwosh.edu/cambridge/cambridge2002/graphics/king's_college_chapel_bg.jpeg

Typical French University :
http://www.phototheque.org/data/media/248/IMG_0210_pms500.jpg

[Nanbawan]

Typical French University :
http://www.phototheque.org/data/media/248/IMG_0210_pms500.jpg

Hey, I've crossed that gate for months ! And believe me that's not the worst part of Jussieu. That said, coming from Rennes, that was some kind of shock...

http://www.epajussieu.fr/img/lexique/barre.jpg
Hmmm...

There are some places I did not even dare to go in. Luckily, I was facing the Institut du Monde Arabe and a bit of Parisian sky so not too bad.



BTW, You picked Cambridge for the UKGBNI (Yeah, I've decided to use this country's full name from now, classy isn't it) ; you could have taken La Sorbonne for France.:rolleyes:

[Pierre-Henri]

The Sorbonne ? Are you joking ? With the exception of the Ecole des Chartes, The Sorbonne is a dump. Less working space there for students than for chickens in the agribusiness*.

Even the Ecole Polytechnique has buildings that come straight from the sovietic era :
http://www.lms.polytechnique.fr/image084.jpg
http://www.luli.polytechnique.fr/z-outils/images/site/site_palaiseau.jpg


----------------
* not joking.

[blackjack]

You're right. I'm here to perfect my French. The material taught in the actual classes through which I'm doing that is a joke. I've never taken a sociology class in the states, but I'm taking L3 sociology classes here and not having any problems at all. The worst part is that the attitude of the students is just awful. They talk all throughout the class, they don't care, as soon as they leave the classroom they're done learning. They're there because it's the socially acceptable thing to do and the next logical step after the Bac, not because they actually have an interest in learning.

[Pierre-Henri]

Non-selective universities are an absurdity. Fondamentally speaking, it can't work.

Unlike most people think, selection doesn't exist solely to filter students. Most of all, selection motivates the students. When you know you'll have your degree whatever you do, there is no point in working. Laziness is a common, ordinary human behaviour. When you refuse selection, you encourage it.

[Metropolitan]

Non-selective universities are an absurdity. Fondamentally speaking, it can't work.

Unlike most people think, selection doesn't exist solely to filter students. Most of all, selection motivates the students. When you know you'll have your degree whatever you do, there is no point in working. Laziness is a common, ordinary human behaviour. When you refuse selection, you encourage it.Especially that selection still exists despite everything, it just takes a longer time. When I was studying the economics, the DEUG was clearly considered as nothing else than a selection to get access to really valuable diplomas only later. The DEUG was worth nothing as a graduation in itself, and it's a good thing it doesn't exist anymore. Nowadays, the 2 first years of a bachelor still serve the same purpose as the deug used to do though.

Anyway, the supposed "egalitarian" system of university is totally hypocritical and it just cannot be otherwise. Employers know well which are the good and the bad universities, and the fact their diplomas have the same value on paper is totally contradicted by realities. And frankly, this is fair to me. Yes, there are better universities than others, why wouldn't employers take this into account? The opposite wouldn't make any sense.

[Pierre-Henri]

Especially that selection still exists despite everything, it just takes a longer time.

It is especially tragic in the humanities. The humanities should be the more selective of all fields, since available jobs are so few. They are the exact opposite : the less selective diplomas have the less job opportunities. This, simply said, is madness.

No selection at Licence (B.A.) level. No selection at master's level, since the ministery foolishly refuses it.

The result ?

The exam to be librarian(*), for example, has a success rate of 1.1%. You've read well : 1.1%.

It means that, for 98.9% of the candidates, their diplomas are almost worthless -- and yet paid by taxpayers. In this specific field, our academic system has an attrition rate of 98.9%.

98.9% !

But, the student's unions(**) don't want selection, because, you know, I mean, it's bad, it's capitalist, you know what I mean, it's not fair, because, you know, we want to change the world, you know, because the Che Guevara is so cool and that, you know, we voted democratically by waiving our hands ?

Poor, poor, poor, poor Pollyanna...

--------------------------------
(*) here again, American friends, think "soviet union". The librarians are employees of the State, certified by the State, recruited by the State... and not by the universities or administrations they are working for. The State is you father, the State is your mother, the State is your provider, the State is your master.

(**) average mental age : 11. Combined IQ : 68.

[guignol]

Non-selective universities are an absurdity. Fondamentally speaking, it can't work.

Unlike most people think, selection doesn't exist solely to filter students. Most of all, selection motivates the students. When you know you'll have your degree whatever you do, there is no point in working. Laziness is a common, ordinary human behaviour. When you refuse selection, you encourage it.i agree wholeheartedly, but during my limited experience at the fac de lettres in Aix-en-Provence i saw a definite selection going on; i'd say about 25% of first year students at the cité U where i lived had stopped going to class completely by march (or earlier) and only stayed for the social life, enjoying being out of the house for the first time in their lives... at an extreme, i remember an amphitheater course where there were 300 students for 200 seats on day one; by the second week everyone could sit, and after two months we could have fit into a normal classroom. the lost and lazy drifted away by themselves.

the problem is they shouldn't have been there in the first place, and the overcrowding these "students" bring is one of if not the biggest problem. the selection needs to happen earlier. not everyone with a HS diploma gets into college, not everyone with a bac should either. the worst part is that some of those who didn't come back after seeing that infernal first day in the packed amphi probably should have stayed, but were filtered out by disgust, not inability. and even worse than the teaching conditions are the kafkaesque administrative hoops held up for students in very disorganized offices by very unpleasant ladies.

i want to say however: having done lettres modernes i know i'm speaking for a relatively unimportant major, but comparing the fac de lettres to humanities at San Jose State, the advantage is all to Aix. i would term none of my profs there bad; 3 or 4 of them were absolutely brilliant, the kind of teacher you remember all your life, and at 30 you're less easily impressed than at 18. in 5 semesters at SJSU, i only had two teachers who were even mildly competent (french... and swimming!) and as far as administration goes... i could go on for pages (and did in fact but have deleted, suffice it to say that it was incompetence on a stick)...

[blackjack]

I'll agree with you about the profs, Guignol. All of mine are really quite good, although none are exactly the once-in-lifetime type. The problem is that the students just are not interested. I find myself wondering why the professors are wasting their time. Do they really believe in the system, or have they just gotten so used to it that they don't mind talking at 150 students in an Amphi where half of the kids are talking so loud that only those in the first three rows can actually hear the professor?

[Pierre-Henri]

Guignol, I'm amazed that we agree, for once. However, the situation is much worse now that it was then. Because of the unemployment, best students choose a cursus that promises them a job directly after the diploma (BTS, IUT), meaning that the university has to deal with :

a) the worst students
b) the students who don't know what to do

I'm not exagerating. Such students are lost, amazed, dazed when the teacher asks them to read some books. They simply don't understand. As Pierre Jourde says in his book, many university students, when asked by the CROUS, are even unable to say what field they are studying. They don't know if they are students in history, in biology, in physics or sociology. They don't have the faintest idea of what they are doing at the university.

Blackjack, I can answer your question, very simply : the prof doesn't have any other choice than to be here.

In the USA, if a prof doesn't like his job at his university, he can look for a job at any other uni/college/community college in the country. That doesn't mean he'll find something better, but at least he has hope.

In France, they don't have this hope for greener pastures. They're employees of the State, and can't move. Plus, where would they go ? All universities are non-selective, all obey the same laws, all have the same bureaucracy, all have the same pay-scale, all share the same programs, grading and exams system. There is nowhere else to go. In other words, a french university prof doesn't have any hope to improve his career. In some sort of way, his career starts and ends at the same time. He's dead stuck.

Add to this the other issues :

I) I'm sorry to say, most students are very, very, very dumb. I'm not talking about you, Blackjack, but generally speaking. I've read things from students that looked, without exageration, like a primary school work. And, as you're saying yourself, they lack even the most common politeness. At licence level, the majority of students are unable to understand a sentence written or spoken in common French -- we won't even talk about academic work here ! For this reason, they don't listen, they make noise during the courses, etc.

A prof I've read said that troubles often start at the same date : october/november, when students realize that they don't understand squat. So they spoil the whole thing, to prevent the better students to succeed.

II) In front of this situation, the professors can't do anything at all. They don't have any power. They can't simplify the lessons, because the deficiencies of the students are beyond simplification. Legally, the students are adult, so there is no disciplinary procedure at university level. The professors can give bad grades, but such grades are meaningless : there is always a compensation, a letting through, a way to counteract. The french university is the champion of bypass. The only one in the world that organizes four sessions of exams per year. The ministery wants results, and results are good grades... whatever the cost.

Anyway, students would not accept bad grades. They'd make more noise, create more trouble ... until the dean has to silence the "tough" teacher. When you teach, the crowd in front of you can be very oppressive, I can tell. If this crowd doesn't fairly play the game, as a teacher, there is absolutely nothing you can do. Nothing, but fake your teaching and wait for the end of the lesson.

III) The salary is so low that even a "Maître de Conférence" can't lead a decent life. Crappy wages, crappy work.

IV) the campuses are ugly. On the long term, it makes you really sick, often unconsciously. At the end of my Doctorate, I used to feel a small retch, a physical reaction, everytime I entered the university. The place rapidly becomes the sign of your social lowering : "here I am, one of the leaders in my field, I write books, I did difficult studies, and I'm condemned to the favela". When your lesson is over, your only desire is to leave the yucky place ASAP.

V) French academic bureaucracy is totalitarian, sovietic by nature. Its only purpose is to make researchers uncreative.

VI) most professors love research. That's why you do this job. That doesn't mean you don't want to teach, but this teaching must be related to the research. When the student's level is too low, you can't, the students take you away from your writing. It's even worse in France than in others countries, because nothing here is made to help the research. An example among many others : no sabbaticals. Therefore, If you want time to write or create something, you have to scorn students.


Well. I'm getting long, so I'll cover points VII to MMCXXXVIII in a later post.

[guignol]

a) the worst students

in the states, the "best" students are the cream of the crop and go to the really good places like berkeley or UCLA, or if they can swing it financially, schools like stanford, the ivy league, etc... even if the threshhold for the "rest" at american highschools with ashtrays (a dated term since smokers has become very rare among american youth) like CSU campuses is higher in terms of numbers, it's no guarantee of real quality... but what's missing is more the work ethic than the intelligence.

there you find three populations of students: 1) kids who are at college for the first time, 2) adults (late 20's to 30's) who have come back to finish college and 3) asians.

the first almost never seem to take a full load (15 units) but are always swamped. just getting by seems a superhuman effort to them, even though that's all they have to do. they live on campus so they don't even have to worry about their commute... but to be honest, if i'd partied as hearty as they did i wouldn't have done very well either!

the second group have paid enough RL dues to be really motivated. they take as many credits as a counselor will let them, because they don't have 3-4 years to get that pigskin, they want things to go fast. and even though they work full-time and do a 3 or 4 way commute, they're all dean's list... which means SFA to them! they don't even go to "commencement" (hardly an accurate term for them after slaving 10 or more years in the real world) to pick up their diploma, they get it by US mail.

the last group you never see in humanities, for them it's all IT, math and sciences. they're very strong students but an anecdote from the math class i took makes me think that if they DID go in for history, lit etc. they wouldn't necessarily be the high fliers:

the 2nd of 5 questions on a test was an operation for which all the examples in class had had answers in integers; the test answer went to 5 or 6 decimal places. all the asians failed becaused they never got to the last 3 problems. they had that question nailed, but didn't trust their answer enough to go on, and kept doing n°2 over and over and over. in passing, i have to add that that math teacher was tops, which makes three good profs i had at SJSU.

b) the students who don't know what to do

this is something i've always considered an aberration in the french educational system. first year university students have the right not to know what they want to do! that's why freshmen in the US don't, sometimes aren't even allowed to, declare a major. they take a year of GE courses, sample different subjects, and reflect on what subject is best for them.

in france kids are forced to decide while they're still in HS. so when they get to the fac they don't know what they want to do, but they're doing it anyway regardless, and that's going to be a disaster for sure.

[Pierre-Henri]

Strasbourg is still closed today. Arson attempt.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2007/11/16/01011-20071116FILWWW00239-universite-fermee-apres-un-incendie.php

I'm so sad I see no comment to make.

[blackjack]

Thanks for the insights, Pierre-Henri and Guignol.

I'm going to rant a little bit about the general atmosphere around the fac now - not specifically the strikes. The first thing I notice is that very little actual WORK is assigned. This may or may not be part of the reason for the apathy of the students. For example, in my L3 sociology class, every student has to give an oral presentation at some point in the semester, then take the final exam. There are no papers assigned, no specific readings given, nothing done to keep students on task between la rentrée and exams. As for the reading, it's also hard for me, as an American, to pick up on what is actually supposed to be read and what isn't. If a professor is talking about something in class and then spits out an author and a title, does that mean I'm supposed to read it? And if he names five different ones over the course of a lecture, how do I know which are the most important and which are likely to be most useful for the exam?

And then the oral presentations themselves - students go up in front of the class, read a bunch of statistics that they pulled off of the government's various websites, and call it job done. Worse, the professors then congratulate the students on their good work! All the students do is collect data and present it, without extrapolating anything, without tying their topic in with the authors we're supposed to have been reading, without offering any substantive analysis at all. It's accepted, and even encouraged!

It really makes me wonder why my professors don't assign more work before exams. Not only would it keep students from being lazy, but it would also allow for some real constructive feedback from the professors. Right now, I'm pretty sure that I follow well in lecture and understand the ideas presented, but there's nothing that's going to happen between now and exams to let me know that I'm on the right track. And if there's something I've missed, there's no way I can know that until I get my test and realize what I don't know. This may sound like a small-college American whining, but really, how can you learn if you don't know that there's a lot of stuff you don't know? Just going to class for thirteen weeks and then taking an exam is not learning at all.