Zidane or Riquelme?

[The Sundance Kid]

hi guys. argentina supporter here. just wanted to know what you thought of this debate we had on the argentina boards and which caused some posters to lose their tempers. we were talking about argentina's loss to brazil in the final, with some criticising juan roman riquelme's performance. this led others to (incredibly in my view) compare riquelme favourably to zidane. when some of us said zidane was the better player, some people went crazy.

here's the link: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=567260&page=13

i've edited it for you so you don't have to read the whole thread:

Yesterday, with the players Argentina fielded, Zidane would had also lost 3-0.

your original argument was absurd. zidane or roman? youre crazy. zidane every time.

If Zidane was on this team as the playmaker, we could/would have won the game. Zidane can move the ball forward and finish off moves.

Thing is probably Zidane would have done nothing in the first games,but he would've shown up for the big one. And thats all that matters.

your bashing of roman (in reference to zidane) clearly demonstrated that you do not have the intelligences to understand the magnitude of Riquelme's genius.

Are you even old enough to have actually seen Johan play? To mention Zizou in the same breadth is disrespectful to futbol. I don't deny that Zizou is amongst the most skilled players ever but of all the players to mention in the same breadth as Johan. As for Roman and Zizou in the same rare air, go read the some of the posts in the players and legends thread and you'll find that many disagree with you.

riquelme is a player whose qualities i admire, there are elements of genius in his play, but he is no zidane, you need to get your facts straight, or better still, turn your attention to ice hockey.

Bla, bla bla Zidane.

this is why people hate riquelme because his fans want to say that riquelme is the best when we win, but he gets an exemption when we lose, i heard the temperature, whats next he got a call right before the game that his mom's hair was hurting so he couldnt play well.

come on man, say it as it is. zidane was better than roman will ever be.

i just read what u guys were discussing!! yeah hes right dont compare Roman to Zidane sorry but too different calibers Zidane to me is probably the best playmaker since 94! Roman is a good player but hell nobody is near Zidane guys! other than he does everything that Roman does the guy plays face up! he'll actually face u up and blow by u like u werent even there! he's just great!

First of all Zidane never blew past anyone in his life. He too was slow and while he was great, he was no greater than Roman. World Cup aside, he attained no more than Roman. Fact is in the WC he won, he was a ghost and only got two goals from being in the right place at the right time.

i'm a fan of roman but i recognise his place in the scheme of things, and believe me buddy, zidane was a far superior footballer, it's not even a discussion.

I don't know how this thread got on to this topic but I think you are underestimating Zidane. World Cup aside...? Well the WC is a pretty big deal. The best players produce in big games and that's what Zidane did. France also went on to become the only team in history to hold the world and european crowns at the same time. There's also the small matter of the Champions League. He was the best player on the planet for a decade and deserves to be mentioned in any discussion about the all-time greats. Zidane was a master. The only aspect in which Roman comes close to him is in terms of brush strokes, but even then Zidane's were far broader, he simpy painted greater pictures. However, in every other aspect besides art, Zidane was better, physically and mentally. On his day, Roman can resemble Zidane, but to merit a legitimate comparison, you can't do it only when the ocassion suits you, or when things are going hunky dory, you have to do it in the most stringest examinations.

Look lets face reality in the face (and I am speaking as a Boca fan), Riquelme as a player is not in the same class as Zidane, end of story.

i have a feeling moishe is posting from either a sanitorium or a crack den.

It's not even worth discussing like debating whether Maradona was better than Ortega.

Zidane was outstanding in the final third, and didn't hesitate to disturb defenses with his dribbling, and not to mention, had a habit of scoring goals in important games. And, he was a leader.

Moishe, you have the right to your opinion, but what has Roman done in his career in Europe that suggests to you that he's a great player?

Zidane the greatest since Maradona? LMAO. Ohh behave.

Here read this whole thread but specifically these posts so you can once and for all debunk this Zidane myth.

those must be some strong pills you're taking. who was better than zidane since maradona? roman? take another dose.

I don't give a sh*t about Zidane's place in history.

I can't believe we're still discussing the merits of Zidane over Riquelme. It's a no-brainer. I don't know how the subject started and I'm disinclined to go back over this thread to find out.

you'd get more sense talking to a squashed tomato.

He's just ridiculously overrated and he's not the best player since Maradona. Of course since you seem to be blinded by the glow of his bald head I don't expect you to see that.

Ronaldinho is a good player so is Zidane and so is Riquelme!!! of course some are better than others but they're all good footballers!

make zidane play the same shit against brazil he'll lose the same way, or even more embarrassingly, without even getting that shot roman had...

what happened to the great zidane against italian trenches? did he score to turn france around?
And france had the upper hand in that match! they got a pk goal at just 5 minutes in! what did zidane do in the 110 minutes after that?

And don't forget what france played in that world cup, and how they got through the knockouts. was it zidane that carried them through?

get real.

As to the Zidane comparison, I'm in the "Zinedine Zidane is the most overrated footballer ever" camp. So I warn you, don't get me started.

I'm not even bothered by your frankly ludicrous man love for the most overrated player in football history, one Zinedine Zidane or your complete lack of knowledge towards a far superior player in Juan Román Riquelme.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

You know my thoughts on this subject. If anyone doesn't, do a search.

[celito]

Riquelem on easy mid competition games, Zidane on finals and tough matches :p

[nekkibasara]

"Originally Posted by big daddy
France also went on to become the only team in history to hold the world and european crowns at the same time. "

Not quite... Germany European champions 1972 and WC champions 1974. That would make France one of only 2 countries to do this.

But on to the issue at hand. How anyone could compare Zidane to Riquelme is, to me at least, laughable. In 20 years Zidane will be remembered as one of the greats, whereas Riquelme will be largley forgotten (just another footballer).

Lets face it Riquelme is to slow, static and uncharismatic to become what Zidane was. Riquelme is not a leader, and when the going gets tough he falls apart.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

In 20 years people will still be wrong. I advise you to read the following thread. It gets on 'topic' fairly quickly. If you still believe what you do about Zidane afterwards then fine. At least I can say I tried...
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=524206

[nekkibasara]

In 20 years people will still be wrong. I advise you to read the following thread. It gets on 'topic' fairly quickly. If you still believe what you do about Zidane afterwards then fine. At least I can say I tried...
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=524206


Reading it right now. I'll post again when Im done.

[nekkibasara]

In 20 years people will still be wrong. I advise you to read the following thread. It gets on 'topic' fairly quickly. If you still believe what you do about Zidane afterwards then fine. At least I can say I tried...
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=524206

I have read that thread and the points were well made, but I still believe that Zidane was a great player (and was not carried by France). The poster who mentioned the French team's performance w/o him had a very good point that all the detractors simply ignored.

On your list of players better than Zidane, I have bolded the ones that I agree wholeheartedly with.

"Originally Posted by Teso Dos Bichos
Schmeichel, Kahn, Buffon, Maldini, Lizarazu, Carlos, Zambrotta, Cafu, Zanetti, Nesta, Campbell, Stam, Ayala, Blanc, Desailly, Thuram, Ferdinand, Giggs, Figo, Overmars, Redondo, Keane, Scholes, Cocu, Makelele, Vieira, Davids, Ballack, Effenberg, Matthaus, Scholl, Veron, Paulo Sousa, Micoud, Mendieta, Riquelme, Rui Costa, Nedved, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Totti, Zola, Del Piero, Baggio, Nakata, Ronaldo, Raul, Bergkamp, Henry, Shevchenko, Van Nistelrooy, Shearer.

That's 50 odd off the top of my head."
I have several problems with this list:

1. I don't think goal keepers should be compared to outfield players.
2. You're bias towards ManU/Arsenal players is quite apparent (Nistelrooy? really?).
3. Some comments on some specific players.

Henry: Great player; arguably the biggest choker of the last 10 years.

Micoud: Best passer France has ever produced, but he suffered from the same problem as Riquelme. They are too slow, cannot defend well, and do not have the best tactical minds (easily marked out of a game).

Campbell: Most overated defender in a long time. The English hype machine really wanted him to be great. (Better defenders=Cannavaro, Terry, Hyypia, Nesta, Maldini, Lucio, etc.)

As to my earlier comment on whether or not he would be remembered in 20 years as a great. I think he will for a couple of reasons.

1. He was great player who won lots of trophies.

2. Many of the other players you listed will be forgotten. Perfect example would be Scholl. IMHO the best attacking player Germany has had since Netzer. Sadly he will not be remembered by the world because injuries kept him from playing in 4 possible world cups (94, 98, 02, 06).

[argentine soccer fan]

Actually Zidane and Riquelme are very similar players in terms of style. They are both amazing talents who can be difference makers and take over matches. They are both intermitent, but when they are on they are magic.


I'd have to give the edge to Zidane because he managed to work him magic at the highest stage, the World Cup. Riquelme has yet to do that.


My opinion is that they both rank as world class in their era, but I wouldn't rank either as top ten or top 20 all-time, as some do. There are just too many brillant players who did more. Zidane maybe there's a legitimate argument for top 50, based on his significance in important matches both at WC and Champions league. Riquelme still has time, so he could still move up, but he needs to be at his best at the WC.


In Argentina the opinion of Riquelme is divided and people are passionate about it. Many fans strongly dislike Riquelme, partly because of club rivalries, partly because of his attitude sometimes, and because of his style. He is not a guy who will run a lot, and sometimes he seems disinterested. But he is great with the ball, he can create chances both from dead balls and from open play, and he can also score. I understand the criticism, but I think to say he shouldn't be in the national team, as some do, is ridiculous. He is definitely a top player for Argentina today.


He performed very well at Copa America. In the final against Brazil he didn't make the difference obviously, but in that match the whole team fell apart after Brazil's early goal, and particularly the defense. Riquelme was well marked, but he still was responsible for Argentina's most dangerous plays, he had the shot that hit the post, and another one that was stopped by a brilliant save.


People are right to say he didn't step up in the match, as a superstar should. But to say he shouldn't be in the team, especially after the tournament he had, I feel only somebody very biased against him can make that statement.

[TFC07]

Zidane!!!!!! :)

Greatest footballer in recent history!

[jpick]

they can shut him down with zone pressing too. basically any disciplinary side with good holding midfielders and fast defenders can do it. That's why there're very few teams still playing the passive playmaker style, and Glenn Hoddle is only a thing of the past.

italians during the period of Roberto Baggio for example, choose to push the playmaker up to become a deep lying forward, that's also an advancement though only saw limited success.

this interesting post from another thread got me thinking, specifically about how a guy like a passive playmaker can be successful in the modern game. i think the solution might not be to move them forward, but is the opposite to move them backwards and have the distribute from back there, a la xavi and pirlo, where it is ludicrous to have aggressive man-markers go that high to take you out of the game and then if they fail leave the defense totally exposed, even a simple long-ball can compromise if they move that aggressively up the pitch. pirlo is slow, and sets the pace, but even if he can't himself move at more than on epace, form back there, and letting the ball do the work for him, he can let the team go fast or slow and anything in between depending on the opposition and his teammates positioning and qualities. it is hoarder to man-mark them out of the game, and then you can faster players like kaka for milan and dinho and messi for barca, who aren't really tempo setters, but have speed themselves (yet of course have the technical ability to play possession ball and interplay when need be).
maybe that is where the slower passive playmakers can really find a home in the next few years? Going back more to the pre-specialization days (for that position at least)?

thoughts? feel free to disagree, I like debate, as this is more a question than a statement, if that makes sense.



cheers

[Toon³]

I'd prefer Paul Scholes but thats just me

[Pekerman]

Zidane, the most overrated player of modern football.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I have read that thread and the points were well made, but I still believe that Zidane was a great player (and was not carried by France). The poster who mentioned the French team's performance w/o him had a very good point that all the detractors simply ignored.

I think he is merely a good player and most of the views regarding him are based more on aesthetics and highlight reels than anything else. I disagree with the 'detractors' comment. No-one is belittling Zidane, simply being realistic and correcting the errors in what others are claiming. The French team point was not ignored (if it was then I am thinking of yet another Zidane discussion...), with it being countered by the other players France missed and the various tactical issues.

On your list of players better than Zidane, I have bolded the ones that I agree wholeheartedly with.

"Originally Posted by Teso Dos Bichos
Schmeichel, Kahn, Buffon, Maldini, Lizarazu, Carlos, Zambrotta, Cafu, Zanetti, Nesta, Campbell, Stam, Ayala, Blanc, Desailly, Thuram, Ferdinand, Giggs, Figo, Overmars, Redondo, Keane, Scholes, Cocu, Makelele, Vieira, Davids, Ballack, Effenberg, Matthaus, Scholl, Veron, Paulo Sousa, Micoud, Mendieta, Riquelme, Rui Costa, Nedved, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Totti, Zola, Del Piero, Baggio, Nakata, Ronaldo, Raul, Bergkamp, Henry, Shevchenko, Van Nistelrooy, Shearer.

That's 50 odd off the top of my head."
I have several problems with this list:

1. I don't think goal keepers should be compared to outfield players.
2. You're bias towards ManU/Arsenal players is quite apparent (Nistelrooy? really?).

1. Usually I would agree but considering the question posed it was appropriate. You need to think about influence and their standing in relation to others in their position. I feel that trio were above their peers and merited inclusion.

2. I see no bias and felt I covered most of the bases in regard to the best players from the specified time period. I also believe AC Milan were the most represented club from my list. If you think positionally then I don't think anyone would do a better job in the time period it took me to think of that list, which was off the top of my head. Considering some of the names you chose to bold (and others you missed out) I need to question how much of some of the players you have seen? Did you do what I asked others to do and create two XI's from that period? It would be interesting to see those sides. As for Van Nistelrooy, are you aware of his record in the CL or at Man Utd? He is the best pure finisher of our generation.

3. Some comments on some specific players.

Henry: Great player; arguably the biggest choker of the last 10 years.

Micoud: Best passer France has ever produced, but he suffered from the same problem as Riquelme. They are too slow, cannot defend well, and do not have the best tactical minds (easily marked out of a game).

Campbell: Most overated defender in a long time. The English hype machine really wanted him to be great. (Better defenders=Cannavaro, Terry, Hyypia, Nesta, Maldini, Lucio, etc.)

The last time I said that about Henry there was an Arsenal fan backlash. I don't completely disagree with your stance but he still merits inclusion. It's good to read what you wrote about Micoud but I doubt anyone who does not watch Die Bundesliga would agree. For Campbell you need to consider his domestic and international pedegree. Take note of how many teams of the tournament he has been included in. Not overrated at all. If anything he is underrated because of his nationality and where he played his football. Sadly that is the case for the majority of the players who have played in England. Of the defenders you mentioned Cannavaro was an omission but Campbell is better than the others I omitted.

As to my earlier comment on whether or not he would be remembered in 20 years as a great. I think he will for a couple of reasons.

1. He was great player who won lots of trophies.

2. Many of the other players you listed will be forgotten. Perfect example would be Scholl. IMHO the best attacking player Germany has had since Netzer. Sadly he will not be remembered by the world because injuries kept him from playing in 4 possible world cups (94, 98, 02, 06).

1. Many players have won lots of trophies because they were lucky enough to play for a great side. Zidane is lucky in that regard. It's all been detailed in the previous threads. I don't mind if he is remembered but only for aesthetics.

2. I agree but that doesn't mean they were not better.

[babaorum]

Micoud: Best passer France has ever produced

You're going a bit too far I think...

[nekkibasara]

2. I see no bias and felt I covered most of the bases in regard to the best players from the specified time period. I also believe AC Milan were the most represented club from my list. If you think positionally then I don't think anyone would do a better job in the time period it took me to think of that list, which was off the top of my head. Considering some of the names you chose to bold (and others you missed out) I need to question how much of some of the players you have seen? Did you do what I asked others to do and create two XI's from that period? It would be interesting to see those sides. As for Van Nistelrooy, are you aware of his record in the CL or at Man Utd? He is the best pure finisher of our generation.


I am aware of Nistelrooy's records and I rate him highly (would have loved him to come to Bayern). There are just so many great strikers from the nineties that I like better. I guess his place on a list depends on how far back we want to go.

Here are my 2 teams for players since 1995. I will use a 4-4-2 for simplicity.

First XI:

GK: Schmeichel
Defense: Maldini, Cannavaro, Matthaeus, Lizarazu
Midfield: Zidane, Petit, Viera, Figo
Attack: Ronaldo, Bergkamp

Second XI:
GK: Kahn
Defense: Sagnol, Nesta, Sammer, Roberto Carlos
Midfield: Scholl, Makalele, Davids, Giggs
Attack: Batitstuta, Klinnsmann

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I am aware of Nistelrooy's records and I rate him highly (would have loved him to come to Bayern). There are just so many great strikers from the nineties that I like better. I guess his place on a list depends on how far back we want to go.

The time period I was set was the last decade (1997-2007).

Here are my 2 teams for players since 1995. I will use a 4-4-2 for simplicity.

First XI:

GK: Schmeichel
Defense: Maldini, Cannavaro, Matthaeus, Lizarazu
Midfield: Zidane, Petit, Viera, Figo
Attack: Ronaldo, Bergkamp

If I am being totally honest I would not have included Matthäus if I was doing it again. He retired shortly into the time period but I included him more because of his stature and reputation in the world game, rather than what he did on the pitch during that time. Luckly though, the time period just catches part of pre-injury Ronaldo. Cannavaro was an omission but I feel the other options in my list are better and Zidane was obviously not going to be included. It is curious that you chose to include him on the wing when there are far better options available who could have made your system work better. Having two left-backs is also curious. The majority of names we have no disagreement with but most made my list, as opposed to my team.


Second XI:
GK: Kahn
Defense: Sagnol, Nesta, Sammer, Roberto Carlos
Midfield: Scholl, Makalele, Davids, Giggs
Attack: Batitstuta, Klinnsmann

Klinsmann and Sammer just miss out in the stated time period, as both retired just into it which is why I did not include them in the list. Sagnol and Batistuta were serious omissions on my behalf. See last sentence from last section. Thanks for your two teams. It gives me a better insight into what you are thinking.

For what it's worth, my XI would be:

Rivaldo - Van Nistelrooy
Giggs - Redondo - Keane - Figo
Maldini - Nesta - Ayala - Zanetti
Schmeichel

A few names change all the time, as does almost my entire second XI. The depth in Zidane's position is huge, which makes all of the claims regarding him so staggering to me. Do you like Zidane because you honestly believe he is better than any of his rivals or is is because you liked watching him and how he played the game?

[Dr.Phil]

We should change the title to Zidane overated or not?


Zidane is the best #10 in recent years.

And lets not compare strikers and defenders to CMs

[nekkibasara]

The time period I was set was the last decade (1997-2007).

I did not notice that at first, I will have to amend my lineups as a result.

If I am being totally honest I would not have included Matthäus if I was doing it again.

Matthaeus still had some good seasons left in him, but you are right he was past his prime. He did make it to the champions league final in 1999,and retired after EURO 2000.

It is curious that you chose to include him on the wing when there are far better options available who could have made your system work better. Having two left-backs is also curious. The majority of names we have no disagreement with but most made my list, as opposed to my team.

I actually was invisioning a midfield w/2 attaking mids who could interchange possitions easily. I should have drawn out the shape of my formation better so that it was not ambiguous.

As to the issue of two left backs; I couldn't bring myself to leave Lizza out, and Maldini is equally skilled with both feet so he would have no problem playing on the right.

I will fix this when I redo my formations.

Klinsmann and Sammer just miss out in the stated time period, as both retired just into it which is why I did not include them in the list.

Because I was using a different time period I included them. Again I will fix this as well.


For what it's worth, my XI would be:

Rivaldo - Van Nistelrooy
Giggs - Redondo - Keane - Figo
Maldini - Nesta - Ayala - Zanetti
Schmeichel

A few names change all the time, as does almost my entire second XI. The depth in Zidane's position is huge, which makes all of the claims regarding him so staggering to me.

I like your lineup. You are right about the huge list of options during the past decade. We have seen some incredible talents in the late nineties as well as today.

My new lineups (I will write them in the proper shape this time).

First XI:

-------------Schmeichel-----------
Maldini--Matthaeus---Cannavaro---Lizzarazu
-----------Petit---------Viera
-----Zidane-------------------Figo
------------------Bergkamp
-----------Ronaldo

Second XI:
--------------Kahn
Sagnol---Nesta---Stam----Roberto Carlos
------------Makalele
Scholl-------Davids---------Giggs
------------Rivaldo
-----------Batitstuta

Do you like Zidane because you honestly believe he is better than any of his rivals or is is because you liked watching him and how he played the game?

I like Zidane b/c I think he is better than his rivals (from 1997 to 2007). By that I mean players who play as the no. 10 or as the creative midfielder behind the strikers.

There is a long list of players that played that position in previous generations that I think are better, but we are discussing the past decade.

[albertini1]

Woow, Zidane overrated !!! what's next?? Kuyt better than Maradona?

I've heard stupid arguements before, but this one is just too much.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

What a stunning contribution from the newbie. Well done son. Care to actually contribute to the discussion? :rolleyes: