Zidane or Riquelme?

[Volrath]

Zidane, Riquelme has not come through in big games with Argentina or in Europe.
Dominating a quarter final against a star strudded Inter Milan squad isn't coming through? Just what the hell does Riquelme have to then to get the recognition he deserves?
I was at that quarter final at Madrigal, I witnessed something special. He delivered the best individual performance I have ever seen against world class players all across the field!

You can't ignore Riquelme's intercontinental cup game against Madrid because they came in full force to that game, and the Real Madrid that won the '99 Champions League is considered to be one of the best Real teams of all time.
Seriously Riquelme made Makelele cry like a little girl in that match.

[bosterosoy]

The Intercontinental Cup is played after the European season is over and the South American season is in full swing,

what the hell are you talking about??? It is the other way around. They are played when the South American season is ending and the European season is in mid swing

Not to mention, basing your opinion of two teams on one game is also incorrect, remember, MLS teams also beat european teams in friendlies.

oh yes how could i be so dumb to realize that a tourney that determines the best club of the year and brings in millions of dollars to the winning club is as important as an MLS v Chelsea final :rolleyes:

Just think of it this way, if you were a top Argentine Player, would you rather be earning millions in Europe or less than one million in Argentina? (remember, Rodrigo Palacio is the highest paid player in Argentina).

What does this have to do with the Intercontinental cup??

[bosterosoy]

Proof? Sources?

Fact: Intercontinental cup games are not even broadcast in Europe.

1) Watch the game!

2) It was on As.com (site of a sporting newspaper in Spain) where he had an interview, but it was a year ago and the link doesn't work anymore, but it was posted on these boards too. Many of the Boca fans on here saw it.

3) http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/09/04/um/01492140.html
It's in Spanish, so you might not be able to read it if you don't understand, but here's the part

El crack italiano recibió el premio "Pie de Oro 2007", en Mónaco, y contó que el partido de su vida fue cuando metió el gol decisivo para Juventus ante River en la final Intercontinental (http://www.clarin.com/diario/96/11/27/R-06001d.htm), en 1996.

4) Watch the Games!

[bosterosoy]

Dominating a quarter final against a star strudded Inter Milan squad isn't coming through? Just what the hell does Riquelme have to then to get the recognition he deserves?
I was at that quarter final at Madrigal, I witnessed something special. He delivered the best individual performance I have ever seen against world class players all across the field!

You can't ignore Riquelme's intercontinental cup game against Madrid because they came in full force to that game, and the Real Madrid that won the '99 Champions League is considered to be one of the best Real teams of all time.
Seriously Riquelme made Makelele cry like a little girl in that match.

Perfectly said.
You watch coming through??
How about sending Villareal to the semfinals of the CL??
3 seasons before that nobody knew who the f*** they were. Before 97 (i think that was the year), they had never been in the top division.

Riquelme came in 2003 and they went from 15th, to 3rd :eek:
They won the Intertoto Cup, they made the Uefa semis and quarters and finished 7th again

Not to mention he sh@t all over makelele in that game against Real Madrid. Yes, they same Makelele that many consider the best DM in the world

[TKORL]

what the hell are you talking about??? It is the other way around. They are played when the South American season is ending and the European season is in mid swing



oh yes how could i be so dumb to realize that a tourney that determines the best club of the year and brings in millions of dollars to the winning club is as important as an MLS v Chelsea final :rolleyes:



What does this have to do with the Intercontinental cup??
Ah wait you're right, I was thinking of the Super Cup for some reason....Scratch that then...

Regarding the second comment. The point is that the best South American players are in the top European teams, as shown by NT selection, and while I think that the best South American teams would do well in Europe, I really doubt Boca Juniors would finish top four in England, Spain, Italy or Germany.

[User Name]

I have to watch it on the internet IF I want to watch the games. In England nobody broadcasts it and all the Liverpool fans I spoke to when they played it did not give two shits. Given a choice Liverpool probably would not of bothered to enter it, it is nothing more than an inconvenience in a busy European schedule.

[User Name]

Dominating a quarter final against a star strudded Inter Milan squad isn't coming through? Just what the hell does Riquelme have to then to get the recognition he deserves?
I was at that quarter final at Madrigal, I witnessed something special. He delivered the best individual performance I have ever seen against world class players all across the field!

You can't ignore Riquelme's intercontinental cup game against Madrid because they came in full force to that game, and the Real Madrid that won the '99 Champions League is considered to be one of the best Real teams of all time.
Seriously Riquelme made Makelele cry like a little girl in that match.

That Inter Milan side was nothing special.

Zidane put superior performances than that even in his old age, like aganst Brazil in WC 06.

[bosterosoy]

Ah wait you're right, I was thinking of the Super Cup for some reason....Scratch that then...

Regarding the second comment. The point is that the best South American players are in the top European teams, as shown by NT selection, and while I think that the best South American teams would do well in Europe, I really doubt Boca Juniors would finish top four in England, Spain, Italy or Germany.

let me ask you something.
Do Real Madrid, Inter Milan, AC Milan etc still continue to buy players from South America?? If all the best players of South America are playing in top clubs in Europe, then how come we still have players being bought by those clubs??

You make it sounds like players like Riquelme, Carlos Tevez, Fernando Gago, Ronaldinho, Hernan Crespo, Adriano, Ronaldo, Rivaldo (the list goes on forever) weren't good until they go to Europe. Players don't just suddenly become incredible when they move to Europe. The problem is that you are too closed minded to realize that before they went to Europe, they were actually playing in South American clubs.

If Riquelme was good enough to lead Villareal to top 4 in Europe and 3rd place finish in La Liga, why is it hard for you to believe that Boca Juniors in 2000 (who had a much better supporting cast around Riquelme than Villareal did) isn't better, or at least as good as Real madrid was??

[bosterosoy]

That Inter Milan side was nothing special.

Zidane put superior performances than that even in his old age, like aganst Brazil in WC 06.

yes we all saw how good that 06 Brasilian team was :rolleyes:
even ghana dominated them and would have won if they knew how to finish

[TKORL]

I wouldn't say there are no good SAmerican players, but rather the talented South American players are a mix of those who are past their peak (eg. Veron), and those who are emerging talents who will likely end up in europe eventually(eg. Banega).

The south american players you named all fit into this category.

Edit: I'm hardly close-minded, I normally change my opinion if presented with a strong argument that is well-reasoned.

[Failed States]

Probably the intercontinental rubbish which is nothing more than an inconvenience for European teams.


Thats was a pretty long inconvenience. :rolleyes: In fact it's ongoing, only this time it's a tournament.

[bosterosoy]

I wouldn't say there are no good SAmerican players, but rather the talented South American players are a mix of those who are past their peak (eg. Veron), and those who are emerging talents who will likely end up in europe eventually(eg. Banega).

The south american players you named all fit into this category.

An emerging talent is talent nonetheless. Before Carlos Tevez went to Manchester United, he was lighting it up in Argentina, yet some people here think that what really happens is European clubs buy players from Argentina and Brasil and they 'suddenly' become stars when it's hardly the case. You talk about how all the NT players in Argentina play in Europe, but they also have made their debuts on the NT when they were playing for Argentinian/South American clubs.

[Volrath]

That Inter Milan side was nothing special.

Zidane put superior performances than that even in his old age, like aganst Brazil in WC 06.

Internazionale

1 Francesco Toldo
2 Iván Córdoba
4 Javier Zanetti
5 Dejan Stanković
7 Luís Figo
10 Adriano
14 Juan Sebastián Verón
19 Esteban Cambiasso
20 Alvaro Recoba
23 Marco Materazzi
25 Walter Samuel
You're denying that these are world class players?

Zidane's performance against Brazil was good yes, but only because Brazil were so ffing bad. They gave Zidane all the space he wanted in that quarter...

[bosterosoy]

Internazionale
1 Francesco Toldo
2 Iván Córdoba
4 Javier Zanetti
5 Dejan Stanković
7 Luís Figo
10 Adriano
14 Juan Sebastián Verón
19 Esteban Cambiasso
20 Alvaro Recoba
23 Marco Materazzi
25 Walter SamuelYou're denying that these are world class players?

Zidane's performance against Brazil was good yes, but only because Brazil were so ffing bad. They gave Zidane all the space he wanted in that quarter...

this team was definetly better than the Brasil squad which wasn't even a team, it was just 11 individuals on the field playing like crap

[TKORL]

An emerging talent is talent nonetheless. Before Carlos Tevez went to Manchester United, he was lighting it up in Argentina, yet some people here think that what really happens is European clubs buy players from Argentina and Brasil and they 'suddenly' become stars when it's hardly the case. You talk about how all the NT players in Argentina play in Europe, but they also have made their debuts on the NT when they were playing for Argentinian/South American clubs.
Correct, but it's equivalent to watching the Arg. U-20 team and the full NT. Both have good players, but one has potential talents, but I wouldn't say that the U-20 > the senior team.

[bosterosoy]

Correct, but it's equivalent to watching the Arg. U-20 team and the full NT. Both have good players, but one has potential talents, but I wouldn't say that the U-20 > the senior team.

but again your assuming that these players just all of a sudden get better when they're transferred to Europe and also I was talking about them debuting on the senior team, not the U-20 team.

[TKORL]

I never said that they suddenly get better. I'm just saying the best in S. America are emerging talents or those past their prime. The best South Americans in europe are those whose talent is recognized, and are further on in development or are some of the stars of the game. Take Pato and Ronaldo, yes Pato is a good player and one of the best of S. America and may become a top player, but is he beter than the best Brazilian strikers? Not yet.

[bosterosoy]

I never said that they suddenly get better. I'm just saying the best in S. America are emerging talents or those past their prime. The best South Americans in europe are those whose talent is recognized, and are further on in development or are some of the stars of the game. Take Pato and Ronaldo, yes Pato is a good player and one of the best of S. America and may become a top player, but is he beter than the best Brazilian strikers? Not yet.

ok, but that is a striker who was bought very early in his career, such as Lionel Messi.

Most players that are bought from South America are older and have 1) been successful over here and 2) debuted on the senior national team.

You took an example that happened to fit your reasoning. What if I tell you about players like Carlos Tevez. He made almost an immediate impact at West Ham to save them from relegation and is now at Manchester United. He made the jump to star right away. Before that he was 3 time South American player of the Year, so obviously, he was not just an 'emerging' star.

Or Saviola, age 19 scored 17 goals in his first year at Barcelona to become a star? Are you telling me that he was just an 'emerging talent' and not a star a year early when he was just playing for River Plate?

Or Riquelme when he went to Barcelona in 2002 after all he did with Boca and after sh*tting all over Makelele he was just an 'emerging talent'?

You see what I'm saying? You think that players are just 'emerging talents' and they they go to Europe, hit it big and all of a sudden they are now considered stars

[jpick]

no, i think what he is getting at, is that most (not all) of those guys, like gago, messi, robinho, pato, and others are geniuine talents and stars before they leave, but since they leave at 19, and continue to get better (well usually at least, sometimes, they don't adjust or can't handle the pressure or get injured or whatever), so relative to what they were at 19, they were still emerging, though they may have already shown great talent already. of course, there are guys who do stay longer, or play during their prime in south america, like riquelme last year, but a lot of the best players, by 21-22 from brazil and argentina are poached away.

I think that is the argument he is getting at.

[TKORL]

ok, but that is a striker who was bought very early in his career, such as Lionel Messi.

Most players that are bought from South America are older and have 1) been successful over here and 2) debuted on the senior national team.

You took an example that happened to fit your reasoning. What if I tell you about players like Carlos Tevez. He made almost an immediate impact at West Ham to save them from relegation and is now at Manchester United. He made the jump to star right away. Before that he was 3 time South American player of the Year, so obviously, he was not just an 'emerging' star.

Or Saviola, age 19 scored 17 goals in his first year at Barcelona to become a star? Are you telling me that he was just an 'emerging talent' and not a star a year early when he was just playing for River Plate?

Or Riquelme when he went to Barcelona in 2002 after all he did with Boca and after sh*tting all over Makelele he was just an 'emerging talent'?

You see what I'm saying? You think that players are just 'emerging talents' and they they go to Europe, hit it big and all of a sudden they are now considered stars
I would put anyone under age 23 as an emerging talent. You're clearly forgetting one thing: top players = talent + top level experience/success. Once they get to europe and succeed, they verifiably have both.


I'm curious, you admit that the best South American players go to Europe, but I ask you, what does that leave South America?